Vortex

[daddyflea]

Will a Vortex actually show more than one target under the coil like a ctx?

 

[NorthwestrnWIMD]

Will a Vortex actually show more than one target under the coil like a ctx?

Yes. Depending on how far the targets are spaced.

 

[Diga]

Will a Vortex actually show more than one target under the coil like a ctx?

No, and neither can the CTX or any induction balance metal detector for that matter. Take a nail right beside a coin for example. Both targets are in the coil's field and both targets are seen as one. A detector doesn't know if there is 1 target or 5 targets in the coil's field.

 

[KOB]

No, and neither can the CTX or any induction balance metal detector for that matter. Take a nail right beside a coin for example. Both targets are in the coil's field and both targets are seen as one. A detector doesn't know if there is 1 target or 5 targets in the coil's field.

Huh ? WHAT ? I have no idea about the vortex. But I get multiple signals at once literally everytime I go hunting. Nox & PI , 12 & 15" coils. 2 different targets 3" apart. I get 2 different signals , not one.

 

[StanTheManStan]

No, and neither can the CTX or any induction balance metal detector for that matter. Take a nail right beside a coin for example. Both targets are in the coil's field and both targets are seen as one. A detector doesn't know if there is 1 target or 5 targets in the coil's field.

True but False.
True at one instance of time.
False due to quantity of time, more than one instance of time, the screen will show more than one target.

But it’s an extremely good point. And Newton Shell Theorem proves that the mass under the coil at one instance of time behaves as a point particle. Coil and mass interact point to point. A bigger coil gives you a bigger average state, but interaction is still point to point. Good to think about when working trash. That’s why targets blend, and IDs move.

Sometimes, if you swing the coil real fast, or raise it higher, the denser targets become more prominent in the average state and easier to zero in on.

Added Note: The detector covers a time period so that it can simulate more than one target. You’ll notice on the Vortex, and more so on the Manticore, a hit is displayed, then there is a delay, and then it disappears. Software. On a Fisher F75 using delta pitch, the sound change is instant.

 

[Diga]

I get multiple signals at once literally everytime I go hunting. Nox & PI , 12 & 15" coils. 2 different targets 3" apart. I get 2 different signals , not one.

Right, but that's not seeing targets at the same time. It's seeing targets sequentially, which is based on the separation speed. Every detector does that.

If a nickel and a dime is right beside each other, we don't get a nickel ID and a dime ID. The detector sees it as one target. As such, we get an ID somewhere in between a nickel and a dime.

Another way to look at it, is if we do a short wiggle and get three blocks on the Vortex, that doesn't mean there is 3 targets. Ditto for ID and tones on any detector.

 

[KOB]

Right, but that's not seeing targets at the same time. It's seeing targets sequentially, which is based on the separation speed. Every detector does that.

If a nickel and a dime is right beside each other, we don't get a nickel ID and a dime ID. The detector sees it as one target. As such, we get an ID somewhere in between a nickel and a dime.

Another way to look at it, is if we do a short wiggle and get three blocks on the Vortex, that doesn't mean there is 3 targets. Ditto for ID and tones on any detector.

Got it now. When 1st read , thought you had gone totally crazy. Thx for clarification.

 

[Cherry Picker]

No, and neither can the CTX or any induction balance metal detector for that matter. Take a nail right beside a coin for example. Both targets are in the coil's field and both targets are seen as one. A detector doesn't know if there is 1 target or 5 targets in the coil's field.

Now this is a good example of how a poster gives the wrong answer based on their finageling of the question.

Yes, the Vortex & CTX can show more than 1 target under the coil at a time. Now if you are thinking of being in pinpoint mode and not moving the coil, no it can only give the depth of 1 target.

In my opinion, since you have to be moving the coil to hit a target, except when pinpointing, then sequential is of no importance. The same as how many so-called SMF detectors actually process multiple targets sequentially, and not in a true simultaneous process. Does it make a difference? Not really in my opinion.

 

[sube]

Right, but that's not seeing targets at the same time. It's seeing targets sequentially, which is based on the separation speed. Every detector does that.

If a nickel and a dime is right beside each other, we don't get a nickel ID and a dime ID. The detector sees it as one target. As such, we get an ID somewhere in between a nickel and a dime.

Another way to look at it, is if we do a short wiggle and get three blocks on the Vortex, that doesn't mean there is 3 targets. Ditto for ID and tones on any detector.

Diga said If a nickel and a dime is right beside each other, we don't get a nickel ID and a dime ID. The detector sees it as one target. As such, we get an ID somewhere in between a nickel and a dime.


Wrong on the CTX we see both targets if a nickel is right beside a dime . A dime on the CTX reads 12.43 and a nickel reads 12.13 .
When side by side the nickel well read 12.13 to 12.25 the dime well read 12.35 so the detector see 2 targets sweeping in disc mode . Also being in pitch mode depending on left or right sweep the detector well hold the last pitch it heard such as 12.13. to 12.25 a lower pitch than the dime 12.35 .
Neither ID is correct but the pitch hold and target trace see both .
Now with pinpoint target trace holding pinpoint button in to build said targets it well display both sweeping several times. The IDS well be plotted on target trace as 12.13 to 12.25 for the nickel and 12.35 for the dime .
If we go to pinpoint not sweeping we get a blend of both targets reading 12.35 .
So we can get 2 targets close together with improper IDS. And fast SEPARATION speed has nothing to do with it . sube

 

[Diga]

Yes, the Vortex & CTX can show more than 1 target under the coil at a time.

Holy smokes. The Vortex and CTX can defy the laws of physics!

 

[Cherry Picker]

Holy smokes. The Vortex and CTX can defy the laws of physics!

^^^^ See sube's answer.

If you swing your coil over a dime next to a pull tab, the 3T/2D/CTX will show both targets at the same time on the display. So yes, it does show multiple targets at the same time.

 

[Diga]

Now this is a good example of how a poster gives the wrong answer based on their finageling of the question.

The question was clear, and the answer is an unequivocal "No". Just because a detector like the Vortex temporarily leaves the previous ID block(s) on the screen, doesn't mean it's seeing targets at the same time.

It's just an electromagnetic field. As long as the targets are in that field, the detector doesn't know if the field is being disrupted by one or more targets. It just knows there is something in the field and will produce a composite ID of however many targets are in the field.

Here's a better example:

Put a nail on a coin. It's not seeing the coin and nail separately. It's not seeing targets at the same time (independently). The detector gives a single composite ID. Now if you say, "Well sure, but they have to be separated by a little bit of distance", then that still isn't seeing the targets at the same time. It sees them sequentially based on the recovery speed.

 

[daddyflea]

The question was clear, and the answer is an unequivocal "No". Just because a detector like the Vortex temporarily leaves the previous ID block(s) on the screen, doesn't mean it's seeing targets at the same time.

It's just an electromagnetic field. As long as the targets are in that field, the detector doesn't know if the field is being disrupted by one or more targets. It just knows there is something in the field and will produce a composite ID of however many targets are in the field.

Here's a better example:

Put a nail on a coin. It's not seeing the coin and nail separately. It's not seeing targets at the same time. The detector gives a single composite ID. Now if you say, "Well sure, but they have to be separated by a little bit of distance", then that still isn't seeing the targets at the same time. It sees them sequentially based on the recovery speed.

So the answer is really yes but not due to actual seeing the target but because Target 1 was detected and displayed for approx 2 seconds. Then Target 2 was detected and displayed for 2 seconds. Target 1 will disappear first because it was detected 1st followed by Target 2. Not sure that the Vortex had this function like the CTX. It would seem that there would be a limit as to how many targets could be displayed and which could or might have priority.

 

[Diga]

So the answer is really yes but not due to actual seeing the target but because Target 1 was detected and displayed for approx 2 seconds. Then Target 2 was detected and displayed for 2 seconds. Target 1 will disappear first because it was detected 1st followed by Target 2.

Yes, it's a time differential based on the recovery / separation speed.

However, if the targets are close together in a vertical position, then recovery speed doesn't matter, because no matter the recovery speed, the detector will always see the targets as one. For example, if you place a nickel on the ground, place a dime right above it and just touching the nickel, then do one swing over them, the Vortex won't show a block for the nickel ID and another block for the dime ID. It will show one ID block that represents the combined characteristics of the dime and nickel, just as every other detector does.

 

[Cherry Picker]

So the answer is really yes but not due to actual seeing the target but because Target 1 was detected and displayed for approx 2 seconds. Then Target 2 was detected and displayed for 2 seconds. Target 1 will disappear first because it was detected 1st followed by Target 2. Not sure that the Vortex had this function like the CTX. It would seem that there would be a limit as to how many targets could be displayed and which could or might have priority.

It is my understanding that the Three-Tier display of the Vortex is like the CTX display as far as showing more than one target under the coil at a time. I like the way the CTX uses a spray instead of the block. The Blocks of the Vortex does show intensity by how it fills the block(s).

 

[Diga]

I think the confusion arises because we're interpreting what "at the same time" actually means.

The Vortex and similar detectors with that type of display, give the "illusion" (for lack of a better term) that the detector is seeing and separating multiple targets independently that are in the electromagnetic field. That of course, is impossible and goes back to defying the laws of physics and how Stan scientifically explained it.

 

[StanTheManStan]

Inside the Metal Detector
18.14.6: Sweep Averaging
Audio responses are instantaneous but visual responses need not be. A visual TID … is normally held on the screen for 1second or more to allow the user time to look at the screen after hearing an audio alert. The screen result can be held for even longer …

 

[Cherry Picker]

I think the confusion arises because we're interpreting what "at the same time" actually means.

The Vortex and similar detectors with that type of display, give the "illusion" (for lack of a better term) that the detector is seeing and separating multiple targets independently that are in the electromagnetic field. That of course, is impossible and goes back to defying the laws of physics and how Stan scientifically explained it.

Agreed Diga.

The key word is independently. Not that I see the significance of independent vs sequentially in the case of showing if you might have multiple targets, and what they might be. Kind of like the case of claiming 28 frequencies when only 2 are in fact independent and simultaneous.

 

[sube]

Yes audio is instantaneous the CTX could be in pitch mode and hold the audio till the next target was hit . If you did not hit the next target it would still play the tone of the last target .Made hunting easier in garbage by only assigning lower pitch for everything but nickel and high conductors . sube

 

[Diga]

Agreed Diga.

The key word is independently. Not that I see the significance of independent vs sequentially

When I heard of the Vortex having new technology, I read a lot of the posts on the main Vortex Facebook page. Anyway, I was surprised at the amount of people on that page that thought the Vortex could see and ID targets under the coil independently, instead of getting a combined response like every other detector does.