Could be bad news for White’s fans

[diggindaboot]

But they're not perfect.

Their dominance in the U.S. is nowhere near what it used to be.

Garrett made some big mistakes over the last 5 years or so. The only question is, why?

I've never heard them address the reason why their most recent flagship model (the AT Max) is basically an updated AT Pro. I think the way the AT Max has been marketed is a sign that Garrett was resting on its laurels with the AT Pro and Ace series.

Yes, developing a good PI machine is hard (ask Fisher). Yes, developing a SMF machine is hard (ask Minelab). But I wonder why Garrett's SMF machine (the Apex) played out the way it did. Was it an "oh sh*t" response to N/M and Minelab? Or had it been in development for years and years, but Garrett just lacked the intellectual and/or financial resources of Minelab? Either way, Garrett probably doesn't want to admit the reason publicly.

If a company won't explain why something happened, the general public is free to fill in the blanks themselves.

Perfect ? NOPE. Name me a detector company who is. The Nox is poorly built and most have leaked. Garrett and N/M build much more rugged detectors.

Resting on their laurels ? Sure. Minelab did the same thing with 705. Especially the ability to change frequencies by changing coils. Then they got a clue and realized they better do something else. Much like where Garrett is now and doing something about it.

Garrett doesn't owe anyone an explanation of why, just like Minelab didn't give an explanation. In fact, what detector company does that ?

Garrett and lack of resources doesn't belong in the same sentence.

FTR, if you beach hunt and don't want to spend the extra money for a Nox, the Apex will crush an AT detector in salt water. They're built better than the Nox too. Apex was a step in the right direction. Now they've positioned themselves to have options on their next detector, most likely their new flagship. It was a smart move not putting all your eggs in one basket with the Apex.

 

[Trashfinder]

Why Garrett bought Whites

Nobody has brought this up, but the reason they bought Whites was to get the SMF technology. Even though the V3i is old, the basis for the tech is solid and needs drastic improvement, it is still a far cry above what Garrett has and knows in the Apex models. They need to make huge strides very quick if they are to survive in the SMF driven market now. With Nokta releasing a SMF machine this year to compete with the NOX, Garrett will be on the edge of a cliff in the SMF market. Look at prices for single freq technology machines no matter the manufacturer, they are dropping steadily every day now. In ten years buying a single freq machine will be like owning a flip phone today, ya there are still flip phones being sold but not many.

 

[diggindaboot]

Sales would definitely skyrocket! Probably too much in that the Ace line would be rendered obsolete.

Just to be clear, I don't really think the AT line should be that cheap. As an armchair CEO of Garrett, I would price my major sport detectors this way:

Ace 200 = $99.99...or just discontinue this product
Ace 300 = $149.99
Ace 400 = $199.99
AT Pro = $299.99
AT Max = $349.99
Apex = $349.99

And I never would have attached the Ace name to the Apex. Instead, I would have made it its own line. It would parallel the AT line until the Apex's successor could come out...maybe call it the Apex Pro or something?

Glad I wasn't drinking coffee. I would have spewed.

 

[diggindaboot]

Nobody has brought this up, but the reason they bought Whites was to get the SMF technology. Even though the V3i is old, the basis for the tech is solid and needs drastic improvement, it is still a far cry above what Garrett has and knows in the Apex models. They need to make huge strides very quick if they are to survive in the SMF driven market now. With Nokta releasing a SMF machine this year to compete with the NOX, Garrett will be on the edge of a cliff in the SMF market. Look at prices for single freq technology machines no matter the manufacturer, they are dropping steadily every day now. In ten years buying a single freq machine will be like owning a flip phone today, ya there are still flip phones being sold but not many.

HEYYYYYYYYYYY, my dad is 83 and just got a new flip phone last week. He couldn't be happier. That is the Gods honest truth.

In 10 years owning a SMF detector will be like owning a flip phone.

 

[mh9162013]

Perfect ? NOPE. Name me a detector company who is. The Nox is poorly built and most have leaked. Garrett and N/M build much more rugged detectors.

Resting on their laurels ? Sure. Minelab did the same thing with 705. Especially the ability to change frequencies by changing coils. Then they got a clue and realized they better do something else. Much like where Garrett is now and doing something about it.

Garrett doesn't owe anyone an explanation of why, just like Minelab didn't give an explanation. In fact, what detector company does that ?

Garrett and lack of resources doesn't belong in the same sentence.

FTR, if you beach hunt and don't want to spend the extra money for a Nox, the Apex will crush an AT detector in salt water. They're built better than the Nox too. Apex was a step in the right direction. Now they've positioned themselves to have options on their next detector, most likely their new flagship. It was a smart move not putting all your eggs in one basket with the Apex.

You're right, no metal detecting company is perfect. So don't be surprised when we criticize a company for their (perceived or actual) mistakes.

And no, companies don't always owe their customers an explanation. But then they (and their supporters) can't complain when people speculate.

Yes, I know the Apex > AT line in and around salt water. But do you know what rivals the Apex in and around saltwater? The Vanquish. And you can get the Vanquish 340 or 440 for roughly half the price of an Apex.

I also agree that the Apex is a step in the right direction. But it's overpriced, in my opinion. I think it was priced in line with how Garrett had priced its other detectors. It should have been priced in line with how the competition prices its detectors.

Pricing a product in line with your other products isn't a bad idea. The problem is that Garrett's pricing of its other machines is skewed high b/c of the "marketing image" they're trying to exude to potential customers. I think this "price products higher to make them better" is a bad strategy. We're talking metal detectors here, not handbags or jewelry.

 

[mh9162013]

Glad I wasn't drinking coffee. I would have spewed.

I'll readily concede that it's easy to think you can do better when you're not actually in a position to do better.

 

[mh9162013]

Nobody has brought this up, but the reason they bought Whites was to get the SMF technology. Even though the V3i is old, the basis for the tech is solid and needs drastic improvement, it is still a far cry above what Garrett has and knows in the Apex models. They need to make huge strides very quick if they are to survive in the SMF driven market now. With Nokta releasing a SMF machine this year to compete with the NOX, Garrett will be on the edge of a cliff in the SMF market. Look at prices for single freq technology machines no matter the manufacturer, they are dropping steadily every day now. In ten years buying a single freq machine will be like owning a flip phone today, ya there are still flip phones being sold but not many.

That makes sense, but do you think Garrett will take parallel lines of SMF development? Seems like it would be better to choose one technology (Apex versus V3i) and run with it.

Or maybe, this just goes to show how desperate Garrett was to catch up to Minelab? They were so desperate that they were willing to spend the cash to develop or buy 2 separate forms of SMF technology to increase their chances and choices for competing against Minelab.

It's almost like Garrett thought, "ok, we're developing the Apex SMF tech, but if it doesn't pan out, we've got the SMF stuff from White's to work on..."

 

[diggindaboot]

You're right, no metal detecting company is perfect. So don't be surprised when we criticize a company for their (perceived or actual) mistakes.

And no, companies don't always owe their customers an explanation. But then they (and their supporters) can't complain when people speculate.

Yes, I know the Apex > AT line in and around salt water. But do you know what rivals the Apex in and around saltwater? The Vanquish. And you can get the Vanquish 340 or 440 for roughly half the price of an Apex.

I also agree that the Apex is a step in the right direction. But it's overpriced, in my opinion. I think it was priced in line with how Garrett had priced its other detectors. It should have been priced in line with how the competition prices its detectors.

Pricing a product in line with your other products isn't a bad idea. The problem is that Garrett's pricing of its other machines is skewed high b/c of the "marketing image" they're trying to exude to potential customers. I think this "price products higher to make them better" is a bad strategy. We're talking metal detectors here, not handbags or jewelry.

The Apex can do more re, ground balancing than the Vanquish. It's also better built. How many times have you read a post saying they would have paid extra for the Nox if it was better built ?

 

[mh9162013]

The Apex can do more re, ground balancing than the Vanquish. It's also better built. How many times have you read a post saying they would have paid extra for the Nox if it was better built ?

I'm not saying the Vanquish detectors are better than the Apex. However, they have similar if not better salt water performance and are much cheaper.

 

[Martin_V3i]

I am just happy that if need be , I can still get repairs on my faithful Old White's M6
for a while .

X2.

 

[Tahtsadatsago]

Nobody has brought this up, but the reason they bought Whites was to get the SMF technology. Even though the V3i is old, the basis for the tech is solid and needs drastic improvement, it is still a far cry above what Garrett has and knows in the Apex models. They need to make huge strides very quick if they are to survive in the SMF driven market now. With Nokta releasing a SMF machine this year to compete with the NOX, Garrett will be on the edge of a cliff in the SMF market. Look at prices for single freq technology machines no matter the manufacturer, they are dropping steadily every day now. In ten years buying a single freq machine will be like owning a flip phone today, ya there are still flip phones being sold but not many.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Garrett hasn't said one way or the other, so it's just conjecture at this point.

Personally I have doubts about Garrett needing Whites SMF technology. I'm more inclined to think that "reason" is more about Whites fans hoping for a new improved V3i than it is Garrett needing a technology boost.

I'd be thrilled if Garrett released a new, light weight, improved version of the V3i - the Whites V3i is one of my absolute favorite machines (I loved mine). I don't believe that is going to happen though - Garrett has their own SMF technology (and it works very well) that will almost certainly be the basis for their higher spec SMF machine (which Garrett has all but said will be released at some point).

For whatever purpose(s) Garrett saw value in purchasing much of what was Whites Electronics. Some suspect it was (mostly) about patents (held by Whites) that hadn't yet been realized in a marketed machine. Others believe the purchase was all about jump-starting a SMF push. There are other possible reasons as well.

Whites had built up name recognition. It is possible that Garrett saw that as a potential benefit in many markets. Garrett is honoring Whites warranty - an unnecessary expense if the Whites purchase was all about jump-starting a SMF push into the market.

Given the nostalgia aspect and the large number of Whites machines that were sold over the years, it is also possible that Garrett saw an opportunity to sell parts AND to convert Whites machine owners into current Garrett machine owners.

Whatever the reasons for purchasing the remnants of Whites, the end goal is the same for all companies - profits. Long term, or short - Garrett saw their purchase as viable. I hope it works out for Garrett because increased competition is great for consumers.

 

[woodbutcher]

Reports are Nox popular in England. So we saw what Xp did. Made poor man’s Deus - the ORX. So Xp is in a bind too, not just Garrett.

Anyone that thinks those At series Garrett’s were flying off the shelves to owners as good after Nox release. We’ll I got some beach front property in Az I sell ya.

Tn, your partially correct,let me explain what I mean. First, I like the at pro,f75,and Minelab nox.. The nox is better at unmasking than the f75 and the at pro,no question...The Visual ID is better on the at pro and F75 than the equinox...
Now, what you were saying about Garrett taking a hit on sales because of the equinox,,I highly doubt that’s the case.. Sure, most seasoned and novice people in this hobbie will take the Equinox over the at pro..If that’s what your referring to then I believe your correct.. But in a overall buyers situation I doubt that’s accurate..There is 10 + years of videos,testimonials and user gossip on the web about the at pro that the Equinox Is gonna take a long time to even come close to.. When people google best detector, or whatever the Garrett At pro comes up exclusively. Minelab equinox doesn’t even show up...Maybe a few more years down the road it will but for today it don’t, and that’s where Garrett shines,on the web. And that’s what the people see.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Tn, your partially correct,let me explain what I mean. First, I like the at pro,f75,and Minelab nox.. The nox is better at unmasking than the f75 and the at pro,no question...The Visual ID is better on the at pro and F75 than the equinox...
Now, what you were saying about Garrett taking a hit on sales because of the equinox,,I highly doubt that’s the case.. Sure, most seasoned and novice people in this hobbie will take the Equinox over the at pro..If that’s what your referring to then I believe your correct.. But in a overall buyers situation I doubt that’s accurate..There is 10 + years of videos,testimonials and user gossip on the web about the at pro that the Equinox Is gonna take a long time to even come close to.. When people google best detector, or whatever the Garrett At pro comes up exclusively. Minelab equinox doesn’t even show up...Maybe a few more years down the road it will but for today it don’t, and that’s where Garrett shines,on the web. And that’s what the people see.

Well then,
Garrett should just stand fast and keep pumping out those At series single freq units.
And we will see what happens.
Think I know.
Won’t say though.

You know Woody, back in the 70s seems only the rich and famous had car phones and microwave ovens. Look today who has them. Those big ole TVs sure got cheaper didn’t they. Some paid $2000-$3000 for just a few years ago.

Get one now for $400-$700 .

 

[jmaclen]

Before buying Whites, Garrett had nothing that could come close to the DFX, V3i, GM24k, GMX or their easy to swing TDI land and beach models.

Their new Apex reminds me performance wise (not the great updated modern design and features which are a huge improvement) of the DFX. Yes I have extensive experience with the DFX and the Apex.

If Garrett can improve the already excellent GM24k/GMX, bring the lightweight TDIs into the 21st century and actually improve the V3i and put it into a waterproof, lighter weight package……..whatever they paid for Whites to me, is worth it just for that.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Didn’t V3i lose depth when multifreq was selected?

 

[woodbutcher]

I was never impressed with whites..For me the mx sport was the best,that thing has raw power & is deep in my soil. I Know whites has it's following too, so there's probably much more educated people than myself to speak on they're behalf..

 

[jmaryt]

Before looking at any of White's confidential IP, Garrett probably already had a rough idea of what it would find. Also, before buying White's, Garrett needed to do its due diligence. This includes looking over all of White's assets, both public and private.

I'm sure Garrett had to sign an NDA of some sort before it could start going through White's protected information.

that's correct! absolute certainty an "nda" was signed.i am "surprised" Garrett
seems unwilling to "experiment" with the (v3 I) and develop a marketable circuit using that detector as a "springboard" perhaps at some point in the future, they will take another look.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[mh9162013]

that's correct! absolute certainty an "nda" was signed.i am "surprised" Garrett
seems unwilling to "experiment" with the (v3 I) and develop a marketable circuit using that detector as a "springboard" perhaps at some point in the future, they will take another look.

(h.h.!)
j.t.

We don't know what Garrett has or hasn't done in that regard. Maybe they have experimented, but realized whatever White's had in SMF tech wasn't better than what Garrett had developed on their own?

 

[jmaryt]

A suckers bet would be buying a used car without having it checked out. You wouldn't do that. Neither would Garrett. "Whitey" had no choice in the matter but to let Garrett inspect any and all IP as well tools and equipment, etc. That's how it works when you purchase a company.

When the acquisition was made, I mentioned Whites having a patent that is different technology than what's on the market today. Whites never did anything with the technology maybe because they didn't want to spend the funds to bring it to fruition. The inventor of that tech was Carl Westmoreland. Garrett doesn't have funding problems and could very well make this detector happen.

Here is the patent and an interesting read. Truncated Half Sine.

This invention covers methods of generating and processing both types of signals in a single metal detector and running both types, CW and PI, simultaneously.

https://patents.justia.com/patent/9285496

Anyone who thinks they're smarter than Garrett is fooling themselves.

edit*

Q. "why" would whitey 'let" them review their patents and engineering data?
A. $$

regardless of your "rant" the bottom line is Garrett "'had" to sign a nondisclosure agreement with whites to make ''anything" happen! then they obviously could examine all the ip they wanted to, and this,"of course" would be necessary to cut a deal.you sound like a person who lets someone else do your f**king for you.
I'm just sayin'

(h.h.!)
j.t.

 

[jmaryt]

We don't know what Garrett has or hasn't done in that regard. Maybe they have experimented, but realized whatever White's had in SMF tech wasn't better than what Garrett had developed on their own?

yeah! well the statement stated "maybe" so yeah again,something could be in the offing for the future.i am not "marvin the mind reader",so anything is possible!

(h.h.!)
j.t.