Soil Surgeon
Forum Supporter
I am just happy that if need be , I can still get repairs on my faithful Old White's M6
for a while .
for a while .
Could be bad news for White’s fans
- Thread starter tnsharpshooter
- Start date
bowwinkles
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,504
Probably would have been best to say "lack of actions".
Valley Hunter
Elite Member
https://www.whiteselectronics.com
Goes to
https://garrett.com/noticesupdates
Is
https://garrett.com
= $$$$$$$$
Goes to
https://garrett.com/noticesupdates
Is
https://garrett.com
= $$$$$$$$
Quite the exchanges here.
So Garrett has a good business. I’ll buy that. Wonder what percentage of their profits though are on hobby VLF or pi metal detectors?
Reckon the engineers at Minelab could make those hand wands used to sweep folks or those booths used at airports to find weapons? I think so. Lol
You know one thing I notice. Ever notice how federal,,state and local governments buy USA makes autos usually. Even utility companies in USA.
Does this their buying mean these are the best made autos? I doubt it.
So If Minelab did make metal detectors used for security checkpoints, would they even be bought by USA firms? I doubt it.
If we look just a VLF and PI detector sales and profit. World wide.
Wonder who is the top dog?
I really don’t know how strong some of the White’s models when they were in business were? Surely not too good though, you reckon ?
So to slap a Garrett logo on one of those White’s might not go over too good.
Ever notice in a town.
There are places where businesses are that seem to thrive.
Then there are those areas that have businesses that seem to change hands a lot. And at first the new business gets quite a few customers then they evidently dwindle Andy the out of business sign is up or a sign for rent or for lease goes up.
So human nature plays a part. The white’s products could be pure poison to folks (even if the product itself is worthy) since they (White’s) folded.
I don’t have a degree in psychology, I did make As in school in it when I took it though.
The word fad comes to mind here. Remember those bell bottomed pants (you older folks here)? It was just the look not how good they fit or even overall quality why folks bought.
And now seems the fad is rather than buying brand new jeans without the holes and then cutting your own holes in them. Is buy them new with the holes already in them. Lol
Human mind is wonderful ain’t it.
So I want one cause you got one. I don’t care how good it is. Just cause you got one. I feel mukti freq VLF detectors some of the sales due to this right here.
Some buying don’t even know the advantages. Just their clan has one or their bud etc. or they are buying on name only. My bud got a Nox. So I gotta get one.
Seems purple hair is popular these days. Maybe Garret should make a purple detector. You never know. I could be on to something.
Reckon social media could accelerate a fad?
Would bell bottom pants got more popular faster back when if internet/social media would have existed? Likely.
Just Elvis singing and be watched on TV sparked sales of things.
Little ole TV. Imagine if internet would have existed back then. Holy cow.
Cheers.
So Garrett has a good business. I’ll buy that. Wonder what percentage of their profits though are on hobby VLF or pi metal detectors?
Reckon the engineers at Minelab could make those hand wands used to sweep folks or those booths used at airports to find weapons? I think so. Lol
You know one thing I notice. Ever notice how federal,,state and local governments buy USA makes autos usually. Even utility companies in USA.
Does this their buying mean these are the best made autos? I doubt it.
So If Minelab did make metal detectors used for security checkpoints, would they even be bought by USA firms? I doubt it.
If we look just a VLF and PI detector sales and profit. World wide.
Wonder who is the top dog?
I really don’t know how strong some of the White’s models when they were in business were? Surely not too good though, you reckon ?
So to slap a Garrett logo on one of those White’s might not go over too good.
Ever notice in a town.
There are places where businesses are that seem to thrive.
Then there are those areas that have businesses that seem to change hands a lot. And at first the new business gets quite a few customers then they evidently dwindle Andy the out of business sign is up or a sign for rent or for lease goes up.
So human nature plays a part. The white’s products could be pure poison to folks (even if the product itself is worthy) since they (White’s) folded.
I don’t have a degree in psychology, I did make As in school in it when I took it though.
The word fad comes to mind here. Remember those bell bottomed pants (you older folks here)? It was just the look not how good they fit or even overall quality why folks bought.
And now seems the fad is rather than buying brand new jeans without the holes and then cutting your own holes in them. Is buy them new with the holes already in them. Lol
Human mind is wonderful ain’t it.
So I want one cause you got one. I don’t care how good it is. Just cause you got one. I feel mukti freq VLF detectors some of the sales due to this right here.
Some buying don’t even know the advantages. Just their clan has one or their bud etc. or they are buying on name only. My bud got a Nox. So I gotta get one.
Seems purple hair is popular these days. Maybe Garret should make a purple detector. You never know. I could be on to something.
Reckon social media could accelerate a fad?
Would bell bottom pants got more popular faster back when if internet/social media would have existed? Likely.
Just Elvis singing and be watched on TV sparked sales of things.
Little ole TV. Imagine if internet would have existed back then. Holy cow.
Cheers.
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woodbutcher
Forum Supporter
Actually with the exception of Fisher ,,Garrett is the oldest landmark company in this hobbie. Meaning they were doing this long before Minelab,Makro,and probably everyone else.
Fisher was started in 1936 and First Texas Bought Fisher in 2006. And they’re still going strong to my knowledge,the fisher machines.
Garrett was launched in April 1964,and probably gonna be here long after more companies fold...Whites was started in the 1950s and even though they are under new ownership the whites name is like the Pittsburgh Steelers, even if you don’t watch football you know who the black and gold are...Same applies to whites,couldn’t tell you how many times I was asked by people who know nothing about metal detecting if I used a Whites.
And then Minelab,launches in 1985 and like other companies just reworked that explorer to death. Same machine,different housing,different name... But I’ve heard people complain about the f75,saying how many versions are there. Probably the same amount as there are Minelab explorer versions.
I use Minelab and they’re ok. But they are always last in the race and when they catch up,you never hear the end of it. Yea,I said they finally caught up to Garrett..Minelab pushed that Xterra forever and reworked fbs to the point of nothing left to rework,, and then they finally caught Upto Garrett a few years ago... Let’s not forget that.
Fisher was started in 1936 and First Texas Bought Fisher in 2006. And they’re still going strong to my knowledge,the fisher machines.
Garrett was launched in April 1964,and probably gonna be here long after more companies fold...Whites was started in the 1950s and even though they are under new ownership the whites name is like the Pittsburgh Steelers, even if you don’t watch football you know who the black and gold are...Same applies to whites,couldn’t tell you how many times I was asked by people who know nothing about metal detecting if I used a Whites.
And then Minelab,launches in 1985 and like other companies just reworked that explorer to death. Same machine,different housing,different name... But I’ve heard people complain about the f75,saying how many versions are there. Probably the same amount as there are Minelab explorer versions.
I use Minelab and they’re ok. But they are always last in the race and when they catch up,you never hear the end of it. Yea,I said they finally caught up to Garrett..Minelab pushed that Xterra forever and reworked fbs to the point of nothing left to rework,, and then they finally caught Upto Garrett a few years ago... Let’s not forget that.
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it would be a "sucker's" bet. "why" would whitey 'let" them review their patents and engineering data? (proprietary information) IF they 'allowed" that, then they probably would have passed,
and no offer would have been made.
(h.h!)
j.t.
Before looking at any of White's confidential IP, Garrett probably already had a rough idea of what it would find. Also, before buying White's, Garrett needed to do its due diligence. This includes looking over all of White's assets, both public and private.
I'm sure Garrett had to sign an NDA of some sort before it could start going through White's protected information.
In my limited experience with the AT Max, when comparing it to the Fisher F2 and Vanquish 540, it's a very good machine. I like mine so much, I decided to keep it and sell my 540.
I think the AT Max is a GREAT machine even today. The problem is, it costs too much for what it can do in comparison to what else is available.
Can you imagine if the AT Pro sold for $200 and the AT Max for $250? Both those machines would be highly recommended by most people.
Tahtsadatsago
Full Member
Do you have a habit of buying 'things' with absolutely no knowledge of what it is that you're purchasing?
If not, why pretend Garrett (or any company for that matter) would be so foolish?
Every competitor (of Whites) knew all about the patents held by Whites. It's not as though patents are completely inaccessible. Heck, even you and I can do a patent search if we're so inclined.
Whites closed their business and was looking for a buyer (presumably to offset losses). To find a buyer Whites would've had to let potential buyers know what it was that they were (possibly) buying. There are legal protections that can be used to protect the seller while also revealing (to potential buyers) what (exactly) is offered for sale.
The chance of the top dog for Garrett meeting the top dog for Whites over lunch, and hammering out a deal without input from lawyers on either side is nada.
Odd how a company capable of snookering Garrett out of a bunch of money (supposedly for nothing of value) couldn't manage to market their products well enough to stay in business.
Perhaps strangely, but it seems as though neither Whites or Garrett saw fit to obtain your advice in the deal.
Is it possible that those two sides knew more about their deal than you do?
Tahtsadatsago
Full Member
Codan (parent company of Minelab) does business with the US government, and has for some time (at a minimum of 12 years).
https://codan.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Chairmans-Address-2009.pdf
diggindaboot
Elite Member
A suckers bet would be buying a used car without having it checked out. You wouldn't do that. Neither would Garrett. "Whitey" had no choice in the matter but to let Garrett inspect any and all IP as well tools and equipment, etc. That's how it works when you purchase a company.
When the acquisition was made, I mentioned Whites having a patent that is different technology than what's on the market today. Whites never did anything with the technology maybe because they didn't want to spend the funds to bring it to fruition. The inventor of that tech was Carl Westmoreland. Garrett doesn't have funding problems and could very well make this detector happen.
Here is the patent and an interesting read. Truncated Half Sine.
This invention covers methods of generating and processing both types of signals in a single metal detector and running both types, CW and PI, simultaneously.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/9285496
Anyone who thinks they're smarter than Garrett is fooling themselves.
edit*
Q. "why" would whitey 'let" them review their patents and engineering data?
A. $$
diggindaboot
Elite Member
And they’re still going strong to my knowledge,the fisher machines. I have an F75 SE and still use it a lot. Fisher hasn't done squat in regards to new detectors. F22, F44 meh. The F75 has been around a long time now. Yet, you don't see near the vitriol directed towards Fisher that you do Garrett. It's comical. Garrett absolutely owned the detector market for 10 or more years with the AT and ACE series. You can accumulate a lot of funds when owning a market for that long. Not only that but they have other facets to their company. They didn't bog down like Tesoro and Whites. Even Fisher makes other products.
Won't lie, this forum makes me laugh so hard at the vitriol directed at Garrett. Yet I don't see any one of those posters starting up a detector company. Me thinks Garrett is smarter.
bowwinkles
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,504
Quote:
"Won't lie, this forum makes me laugh so hard at the vitriol directed at Garrett. Yet I don't see any one of those posters starting up a detector company."
We are just "detector company inspectors" which comes with years of just being around and using different machines. It is our job to try to reflect our thoughts towards the detector companies.
"Won't lie, this forum makes me laugh so hard at the vitriol directed at Garrett. Yet I don't see any one of those posters starting up a detector company."
We are just "detector company inspectors" which comes with years of just being around and using different machines. It is our job to try to reflect our thoughts towards the detector companies.
diggindaboot
Elite Member
You bash Garrett endlessly and yet they still make good products and are growing while others are folding. FTR, you're one of the ones I laugh at most. Your seething about Garrett not reproducing the TRX is up there with Charlie Brown. You should have bought extra TRX pointers when you heard they were closing shop. I bought an extra Digmaster because it's my favorite hand digger. Still in the package, in my closet. I won't bash Garrett because they won't produce the Digmaster. It's their perogative.
But they're not perfect.
Their dominance in the U.S. is nowhere near what it used to be.
Garrett made some big mistakes over the last 5 years or so. The only question is, why?
I've never heard them address the reason why their most recent flagship model (the AT Max) is basically an updated AT Pro. I think the way the AT Max has been marketed is a sign that Garrett was resting on its laurels with the AT Pro and Ace series.
Yes, developing a good PI machine is hard (ask Fisher). Yes, developing a SMF machine is hard (ask Minelab). But I wonder why Garrett's SMF machine (the Apex) played out the way it did. Was it an "oh sh*t" response to N/M and Minelab? Or had it been in development for years and years, but Garrett just lacked the intellectual and/or financial resources of Minelab? Either way, Garrett probably doesn't want to admit the reason publicly.
If a company won't explain why something happened, the general public is free to fill in the blanks themselves.
Trashfinder
Forum Supporter
I think you are dead on! Honestly they better hurry, with the release of the Nokta SMF machine this year at prices cheaper than the NOX, market share in the PRO and MAX range will dwindle yet again. Having owned both the PRO and MAX , i consider them much better than the APEX I had.
Can I imagine? Yes I can, even if they were 250/300, sales would skyrocket as they would be priced about where they should be based on performance and competition.
Reports are Nox popular in England. So we saw what Xp did. Made poor man’s Deus - the ORX. So Xp is in a bind too, not just Garrett.
Anyone that thinks those At series Garrett’s were flying off the shelves to owners as good after Nox release. We’ll I got some beach front property in Az I sell ya.
Anyone that thinks those At series Garrett’s were flying off the shelves to owners as good after Nox release. We’ll I got some beach front property in Az I sell ya.
bowwinkles
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,504
You are correct I am a bit rough on Garrett because I do own more than my share of that brand and here on this forum I always thought that being a user of a brand that it was OK to comment on those products. If us users do not voice our thoughts on products (positive or negative) we will never see any changes it their product lines that meet our needs. The TRX line will definitely be missed but we now have other brands that have came out with very positive reports. Everyone please keep up your reports on equipment performance and manufacture support good or bad.
Sales would definitely skyrocket! Probably too much in that the Ace line would be rendered obsolete.
Just to be clear, I don't really think the AT line should be that cheap. As an armchair CEO of Garrett, I would price my major sport detectors this way:
Ace 200 = $99.99...or just discontinue this product
Ace 300 = $149.99
Ace 400 = $199.99
AT Pro = $299.99
AT Max = $349.99
Apex = $349.99
And I never would have attached the Ace name to the Apex. Instead, I would have made it its own line. It would parallel the AT line until the Apex's successor could come out...maybe call it the Apex Pro or something?
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