Proving to myself which is better 900 or Manticore

[matt93]

Here's a great analogy that I've heard metal detector engineers use, to explain why increasing transmit power doesn't increase depth:

Increasing transmit power is similar to what happens when you turn on your high beams in fog. The "extra power" of the light, causes so much extra glare, that it further hides the person you're trying to see. Think of the fog as the ground signal, the transmit power as the high beams, and the person as the coin you're trying to find.

This is basically my thoughts after swinging the Manticore exclusively the last 13-14 months. The “extra power” does NOT gain depth, but certainly does increase false signals. I have found, in general, however, it can be useful in the respect that you can still grab conductive targets without covering every square inch of ground when swinging. It’s the same as every other machine out there, it just takes many hours to get a grasp on what the machine is telling you. 2d is certainly NOT the end all-be all, but I do appreciate as much info as I can get when deciding whether or not to dig a target. Separation is certainly well above average for the Manticore and THAT is where I would argue it is superior to the 900 800 or legend.
We’ll have to agree to disagree about the important of ground balance. It’s there for a reason. I’ve never used auto ground balance other than experimenting with it at the beach once on vacation, and will continue to manually ground balance in the future.
I have considered looking at the D2 as it seems to be on par or perhaps a little better than the manticore in regards to separation, but there again, is it that much better to justify spending another 14 hundy? Probably not. Too, I’ve become so accustomed to the tones on the Minelab machines that when I hear the tones on the D2 it’s almost like nails on a chalkboard (simply my opinion), and the menu and operations and size of screen on the D2 looks unappealing to me, but then again, I’m certainly not opposed to trying something new, just have to wonder if it’s justified. Out in the wide open, I seriously doubt the D2 is that much more impressive than the Manticore or the 900 or even the Legend for that matter. Separation, however, that could be a different story. The only way one knows is by actually running each machine in one’s environment, not just listening to influencers on YouTube or message boards, so Kudos to Magic for giving it a shot.

 

[Diga]

Your bias is showing LOL.

I don't care if a detector has a fluginbobin with a caretinfacet, what counts is the fun you had, and what is in your pouch at the end of a hunt. I'm sure on the beach the Manticore is great, but we don't have beaches in southwest Kansas. If you believe the Manticore, or any other detector for that fact, is some kind of magic stick of find all in any condition, then power to you.

"Fluginbobon with a caretinfacet". My spellchecker is going ballistic!

The bottom line is that the 800 with it's Multi-IQ was a ground breaking detector for recovery speed, and excellent performance in magnetite and salt ground. Most, if not all, the SMF detectors, are 800 technology in a different package.

 

[Diga]

We’ll have to agree to disagree about the important of ground balance. It’s there for a reason. I’ve never used auto ground balance other than experimenting with it at the beach once on vacation, and will continue to manually ground balance in the future.
I have considered looking at the D2 as it seems to be on par or perhaps a little better than the manticore in regards to separation,

Hi Matt.

You quoted my post, and said you have to disagree about the importance of ground balancing, and mentioned different ways to ground balance. But, I don't know what you're disagreeing with, because my points aren't about that

Also, all the SMF detectors have about the same maximum recovery speed. Recovery speed isn't limited by the hardware or technology. The engineers can make the recovery speed even faster than they already do, by simply changing one parameter, in one line of code. The reason they don't do that, is because making the recovery speed any faster than it already is, results in audio clipping and reduced TID accuracy.

 

[Cherry Picker]

From what I have observed, the 900 is pretty much right on par with the Manticore. Those who like the plotting, like me, would probably like the Manticore if given a choice.

Also from what I've observed, SSF (selectable single frequency) is the real newest detector technology. Not having to buy another coil or detector to do specialized hunting like prospecting is cool. Although, now we know the magic frequency is 15 kHz to 20 kHz. I've watched so many videos where they compare SMF to a single frequency in the 15 kHz to 20 kHz range which is so obviously a better response. I do think SMF has a place, just not the do all the hype has it doing. But time will tell.

 

[sube]

"Fluginbobon with a caretinfacet". My spellchecker is going ballistic!

The bottom line is that the 800 with it's Multi-IQ was a ground breaking detector for recovery speed, and excellent performance in magnetite and salt ground. Most, if not all, the SMF detectors, are 800 technology in a different package.

Please tell me why multi-iq was a ground breaking detector for recovery speed . I will agree with you that multi-iq is better in mineral than previous machines .
Deus 2 manticore legend all have a high conductor mode that's uses more power WHY because there better in mineral how much don't know so they are making steps in the right direction to as you say fog in the headlights .
But in the end they all use the same tech vlf or now we can add vhf (LOL) .
The nox was always a nickel killer compared to fbs or bbs because it is a mid range freq detector fbs was low range freq poor on nickels good on what I wanted silver .
Detectors today give you the option to tune to your ground and target types you can run any set of freq you want but it does not change the fact that it is still old tech but only slightly better because you have so many adjustments .
Then again please enlighten me to why recovery speed was so ground breaking . sube

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Recovery speed had nothing to do with MF I don’t think. Actually I believe it was Xp Gold maxx or Deus 1 that was the ground breakers for recovery speed.
A whites V3/V3i could fall in there too. Think Deus 2 was better though.

I just posted video showing who I think revolutionized recovery speed.

 

[Magicmantx]

I am curious as to why so many feel the Manti excells in seperation over the 900? I’m not seeing that at all. I frequently find coins and nails together and have no problem with seperation. All of this comparison has been done with the stock 11” coils. Trying to keep the playing field as even as possible. Also I’m comparing the nox 900 to the Manticore only. Differences in these machines with everything else available is a well debated topic already and will likely go on forever lol. More of a curiosity thing for me and the conditions for me to be able to compare the two without bias. In actuality I was kinda hoping it would have went more the other way and convinced me to buy in. But is what it is. As far as salt water beaches go I’m 12 hrs from the nearest salt water but I have used my 900 in Galveston once and found a nice 14k gold wedding band. N Arkansas is all about tree roots and rocks lol. Going back out today soon as the battery is full I’ll see if anything changes . Report back later.

 

[Diga]

There's a paper from Minelab kicking around, that describes the development of Multi-IQ on the Nox. Minelab states in the paper, that one of the goals that was achieved, was a very fast recovery rate.

In hindsight though, I believe the paper describes that fast speed in relation to their BBS/FBS detectors.

If anyone knows of that paper and can post it, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll have a look for it as soon as I can.

 

[tnsharpshooter]

There's a paper from Minelab kicking around, that describes the development of Multi-IQ on the Nox. Minelab states in the paper, that one of the goals that was achieved, was a very fast recovery rate.

In hindsight though, I believe the paper describes that fast speed in relation to their BBS/FBS detectors.

If anyone knows of that paper and can post it, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll have a look for it as soon as I can.

Sure they developed the detector with faster recovery speed.
Wonder why?
Xp may have had some thing to do with it. It may have been Xp products tested to set goal for Minelab.
Just like it was Eqx set the standard for Nokta to develop Legend. We know this from manufacturers rep comments. Remember Legend can do everything Nox can do and then some. How would they know? Hmmmm
And it may have been Xp with Deus 2 that helped set the standard for Minelab and their goals with Manticore as far as salt beach performance.
Yeah these companies are indeed looking hard at competitors units. They would be fools not to.

 

[Diga]

I found the paper regarding Multi-IQ on the Nox and it's associated recovery speed.

Quotes from it:

"By developing a new technology, as well as a new detector ‘from scratch’, we will be providing both multi-frequency and selectable single frequencies in a lightweight platform, at a low cost, with a significantly faster recovery speed that is comparable to or better than competing products".

"Multi-IQ uses the latest high-speed processors and advanced digital filtering techniques for a much faster recovery speed than BBS/FBS technologies. Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions almost as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."

Minelab Multi-IQ Technology Explained

Minelab Multi-IQ Explained - a compilation of articles about Minelab Equinox technology

www.detectorprospector.com

 

[tnsharpshooter]

Yep.
And it’s just what I said above. They wouldn’t know how fast unless they tested other manufacturer’e products like .Deus 1. Minelab was just around 8 years behind Xp.

 

[sube]

Paper smaper who cares the nox was toted as a end all to smf nothing was better . I have one don't use and all coils . The coil ears break the shaft had to be replaced the arm cuff broke and it leak like a sieve .
Now there telling me speed is where it's at lol I tested the ctx manticore deus 2 and nox did not find any benefit to having speed (if i hunted in the first 4 inches I could hunt faster ) but if I slowed down my sweep speed i would get the same results with my turtle ctx .
But I get clad in change and don't like to dig it I want old coins which are 90 percent of the time deeper .
Instead of looking at a paper a company wrote as to the self destructing detector to end all smf show me a video where running a fast detector well find deep coins a turtle can't .
And again I do agree that the newer detectors are better in mineral even at the slowest speed you can run them at . sube

 

[Diga]

I'm not saying there is any benefit to speed. Heck, I always run a low recovery speed. All I said, was that the Nox was a ground breaker for speed. That doesn't infer if that speed is a benefit or not.

 

[matt93]

Hi Matt.

You quoted my post, and said you have to disagree about the importance of ground balancing, and mentioned different ways to ground balance. But, I don't know what you're disagreeing with, because my points aren't about that

Also, all the SMF detectors have about the same maximum recovery speed. Recovery speed isn't limited by the hardware or technology. The engineers can make the recovery speed even faster than they already do, by simply changing one parameter, in one line of code. The reason they don't do that, is because making the recovery speed any faster than it already is, results in audio clipping and reduced TID accuracy.

Yes I apologize, I agreed with your sentiment, but I didn’t cut out the line from Magic that stated he didn’t ground balance…I don’t know if that makes any true difference in separation ability between Manticore and 900, just that I don’t swing without ground balancing first.

 

[sube]

I found the paper regarding Multi-IQ on the Nox and it's associated recovery speed.

Quotes from it:

"By developing a new technology, as well as a new detector ‘from scratch’, we will be providing both multi-frequency and selectable single frequencies in a lightweight platform, at a low cost, with a significantly faster recovery speed that is comparable to or better than competing products".

"Multi-IQ uses the latest high-speed processors and advanced digital filtering techniques for a much faster recovery speed than BBS/FBS technologies. Multi-IQ copes with saltwater and beach conditions almost as well as BBS/FBS, however BBS/FBS still have an advantage for finding high conductive silver coins in all conditions."

Minelab Multi-IQ Technology Explained

Minelab Multi-IQ Explained - a compilation of articles about Minelab Equinox technology

www.detectorprospector.com

(You could therefore say “fast is the new deep, when it comes to EQUINOX!” lol ) quote minelab
Can someone show me the new deep lol.
Maybe in mineral ground how much ?
After reading this car sales ad I think I will go back to the nox . lol
All smf detectors are toting speed and separation as the holy grail to make you buy.
Yet they are just some tiny benefits to the smf detectors they do give you many more options to tune to your ground and targets you look for .
All the you tube videos are on speed and separations you may get 2 beeps and say yeah it separated with the wrong ID when they pinpoint . Nail from nickel try that in a fairground same ID nail and pull-tab nail and canslaw nail and foil and many other junk items .
Try it sometime show me your bag of garbage it's bad enough going by a perfect nickel ID still end up with 4 tabs to a red rock nickel .
I will wait for some new tech but in the mean time swing my deus 2 which for a fact is a game changer nothing swings like a deus but still runs the same tech. sube

 

[Magicmantx]

(You could therefore say “fast is the new deep, when it comes to EQUINOX!” lol ) quote minelab
Can someone show me the new deep lol.
Maybe in mineral ground how much ?
After reading this car sales ad I think I will go back to the nox . lol
All smf detectors are toting speed and separation as the holy grail to make you buy.
Yet they are just some tiny benefits to the smf detectors they do give you many more options to tune to your ground and targets you look for .
All the you tube videos are on speed and separations you may get 2 beeps and say yeah it separated with the wrong ID when they pinpoint . Nail from nickel try that in a fairground same ID nail and pull-tab nail and canslaw nail and foil and many other junk items .
Try it sometime show me your bag of garbage it's bad enough going by a perfect nickel ID still end up with 4 tabs to a red rock nickel .
I will wait for some new tech but in the mean time swing my deus 2 which for a fact is a game changer nothing swings like a deus but still runs the same tech. sube

Funny thing I have noticed and your comments do bring up another thought. I have noticed and even made the comment to people that after having and using my 900 for a bit my trash recovery is greatly reduced. Not that I don't occasionally dig a pull tab or other junk but usually when I do I pretty much have a very good idea that is exactly what I will be digging before I do. In this process of my testing my trash recovery has gone way up. Sometimes I know that it is probably a pull tab or can slaw but alot of times especially when using the data from the 2D screen I recover trash when I'm not expecting it. This may be partially from my limited amount of time using the Manticore but not entirely. Just sharing a thought.

 

[Magicmantx]

I did go back and put in 7 more hours yesterday in a different area of the camp and had alot of the same results but I tried to pay close attention to the areas with more trash signals and more importantly targets that appeared to have targets very close to each other. There were a few that had a piece or wire very close to a coin and I could definitely tell. Different than the 900 ? Possibly. This part of the camp I have been over a few times and I would always find more but today it seems that I found more than usual but a couple of the spots I hadn't been over at all and found a 1948 Rosie silver dime but more than likely that was simply a case of not detecting that spot before. So this day wasn't one where I could actually say the 900 was as good but really more of a maybe yes maybe no. since I coin probably, and will, go back to the same spots and find even more with the 900. My next trip I plan to mark off an area and heavily grid search it for a couple hours with the 900. then the next 2 hours go back over the same exact area with the Manticore and see what my results are. Since some think doing a GB will make a difference I will alot some time going by Minelabes recommendation of setting to zero and doing a ground balance and re sweep that area. I have done this multiple times before in other areas and really didn't see a noticeable difference but for the purpose of this experiment I will give that a try as well. rain is in the forecast through Saturday so next trip out will more than likely be Sunday so I'll report back early next week hopefully. Stay tuned. Also if anyone is interested in seeing any of this I am doing all of this testing Live on TIK TOK . I usually start around 11am CST and go until 1:00 and take a break and start again at 2:00 and run till I give out lol. If you want to see look up @Magicmantx. You can also view some of the short videos I have posted there. I'm not a big video production guy but hope to create a video compiled of alot of this to post on YouTube but that will be a bit later as I'm old and slow LOL. Stay tuned.

 

[Cherry Picker]

I really appreciate the reports from real field use. I did this for many years and know the extra work it takes and time out of your hunting.

I found that until you have at least 6 months or roughly 500 hours on a detector, your results can be out of the norm. Any time you use a new detector we have the tendency to give it extra attention. It is natural and expected. You will recover more iffy targets which in turn will net you more finds. Some people attribute these findings to a better detector, which may be the case, but could be duplicated with your old detector if you weren't so comfortable with thinking you could tell the good from the bad and recover more iffy.

I found you will know when you're swinging a game changer.

 

[Diga]

Any time you use a new detector we have the tendency to give it extra attention. It is natural and expected. You will recover more iffy targets which in turn will net you more finds. Some people attribute these findings to a better detector, which may be the case, but could be duplicated with your old detector if you weren't so comfortable with thinking you could tell the good from the bad and recover more iffy.

Exactly

In the same regard though, I think people often underestimate the power of confirmation bias. When you spend much more on a product (be it from the same manufacturer or not), there is often a tendency to justify that more expensive purchase by "seeing what you want to see".

So, what is the best way to compare the performance of two detectors? I would say the best, and probably the only legitimate way, is setting the detectors up in a similar manner, then seeing how they compare on dozens of targets in the wild, on various sites. If that is done with two similar type of detectors, with similar settings, then it will be found that the results are similar. For example, that Paystreak guy has an extraordinary amount of experience on his Deus II and Legend. Since those 2 detectors were released, he has pretty much used only those detectors exclusively for several hours, almost every single day. Recently though, he's using his D2 much more so than the Legend. He said those two detectors will hit "about the same targets", and they have similar performance, but he uses his D2 much more lately, because it is more comfortable to swing than his Legend, Nox, etc.

With that said, my point isn't about his D2 or Legend. My point is he compares detectors in the most relevant and legitimate way possible. That is head to head, on dozens of targets in the wild.

 

[Cherry Picker]

Exactly

In the same regard though, I think people often underestimate the power of confirmation bias. When you spend much more on a product (be it from the same manufacturer or not), there is often a tendency to justify that more expensive purchase by "seeing what you want to see".

So, what is the best way to compare the performance of two detectors? I would say the best, and probably the only legitimate way, is setting the detectors up in a similar manner, then seeing how they compare on dozens of targets in the wild, on various sites. If that is done with two similar type of detectors, with similar settings, then it will be found that the results are similar. For example, that Paystreak guy has an extraordinary amount of experience on his Deus II and Legend. Since those 2 detectors were released, he has pretty much used only those detectors exclusively for several hours, almost every single day. Recently though, he's using his D2 much more so than the Legend. He said those two detectors will hit "about the same targets", and they have similar performance, but he uses his D2 much more lately, because it is more comfortable to swing than his Legend, Nox, etc.

With that said, my point isn't about his D2 or Legend. My point is he compares detectors in the most relevant and legitimate way possible. That is head to head, on dozens of targets in the wild.

I agree.

What I like to see in a comparison is factory-like programs, generally Park, in the wild looking at targets in their natural environment. Find a target that seems to be a good one and using factory settings check it with each detector. Little commentary is needed, just let me hear and see what each detector finds. Still, I say you will know when you have a game changer. So far what I see is pretty much all the top of the lines are the same in performance. One may have an advantage under certain conditions, but they all do about the same thing. The only two I see as being special are the D2 for its ergonimics, and the Manticore for its work with plotting. Other than that, I see clones.