Manticore - Discerning between nails and deep silver

[ohmygato]

With the exceptional TID ability of the Manticore I've found my accuracy to be much better than with prior machines. The one thing that still fools me on occasion is a rusty nail that gives off a nice high tone and a TID of ~90+ (in one direction at least). Often these nails are either laying flat or they're super deep with the tip pointing straight down. And of course if I dig them I often end up wasting a lot of time trying to find them because they're on the side of the hole rather than right in the middle.

Is there a surefire way to avoid nails and not miss any silver?

A few things that come to mind:
- Cross sweeping almost all of these has been pretty repeatable; "good" in one direction but bad in the other direction. But on occasion some of them still sound and look too good so I dig them anyway.
- Is there a way to add in a discrimination pattern say just at TIDs 98-99 or so just to eliminate those squealing nails and still not lose any silver?
- I saw a video recently of a guy using a trick where he switches to pinpointer mode on the Manticore and tests several targets to show that all junk/iron targets will show a red TID number for a split second while pinpointing whereas good targets will not. I have to admit that I haven't even tried pinpointing with the Manticore.
- When switching to all metal/horseshoe mode if it's a nail I can almost always hear and see the "thud" of iron next to the squealy high tone.

 

[Rattlehead]

Take a look through this thread from a few months ago. Some pretty good tips listed there:

Minelab Manticore Iron falsing Issue

I bought this machine early in the spring. I now have about 70 hours on the machine and I have to say I sold my equinox 600 to purchase this with the M15 and I am upset with how this machine handles Iron. Specifically rusty nails. I have started to document my playing with settings and the...

metaldetectingforum.com

 

[ohmygato]

Take a look through this thread from a few months ago. Some pretty good tips listed there:

Minelab Manticore Iron falsing Issue

I bought this machine early in the spring. I now have about 70 hours on the machine and I have to say I sold my equinox 600 to purchase this with the M15 and I am upset with how this machine handles Iron. Specifically rusty nails. I have started to document my playing with settings and the...

metaldetectingforum.com

Looks like a bunch of dudes arguing for no reason to me.

I see some hints in there but no surefire 100% true/false (or even >50%) methods. It appears we're still learning and the expectation for high accuracy may be too high.

 

[Rattlehead]

Looks like a bunch of dudes arguing for no reason to me.

I see some hints in there but no surefire 100% true/false (or even >50%) methods. It appears we're still learning and the expectation for high accuracy may be too high.

Yeah, a little of that in there too.

I doubt any method is 100%, but a few very good ones are mentioned in that thread which are likely well above 50%. The method I use is probably closer to 90% for me. I still get fooled occasionally, though not often enough to bother me.

IMHO, falsing iron generally has a “ghosty” quality to it. What I mean is that the tone is hit or miss and slightly delayed as the coil crosses the target from each direction, unlike non-ferrous which tones consistently and sounds off immediately as the coil crosses it. The ghosty tone is usually a dead giveaway, but if I’m still unsure, I’ll turn about 30 degrees…. If the tone is still there, I dig it, and 9 times out of 10 it’s non-ferrous.

Higher frequency weighted programs are less sparky in iron. Running lower sensitivity levels helps too.

Like most other detectors, the more hours you put on it, the better you learn to avoid digging iron.

 

[ohmygato]

IMHO, falsing iron generally has a “ghosty” quality to it. What I mean is that the tone is hit or miss and slightly delayed as the coil crosses the target from each direction, unlike non-ferrous which tones consistently and sounds off immediately as the coil crosses it. The ghosty tone is usually a dead giveaway, but if I’m still unsure, I’ll turn about 30 degrees…. If the tone is still there, I dig it, and 9 times out of 10 it’s non-ferrous.

This is roughly what I've landed on as well, although I don't know if I can honestly tell the "ghosty" tone. But yes iron sounds different from a good target.

I've also seen that tricky iron seems to always be in the super high 90s range unlike any other target I've dug. I'm not sure if discriminating out (either by settings or mentally) those targets would lose some silver.

 

[MasonDixonMding]

I use the 900 but when I hear those deep signals that I think is falsing. I’ll use pin point mod. Than on this spot I’ll just do a little swing and it will just be iorn signal.

But depending on the site you may want to dig any of those iffy signals. Not long ago I had a very bad signal on a great site. I ended up digging a one reale. You never know?

 

[matt93]

Pinpoint mode is your friend…on suspect targets, use the pinpointer and in my experience, many times over if it’s not pinpointing where you’re getting the tid or sound, it’s iron halo.
I’ve got probably 300 or so hours on the Manticore, and I still occasionally get fooled however not enough to tick me off.
Square nails, now those can get ya, but I hunt in all iron as I like to hear everything that’s going on especially in said square nail beds, and I agree about the ghosting effect. You can also set the ferrous limits to potentially block out those 96 plus tid targets…the odds of it being something amazing other than falsing at that level is pretty low.

 

[matt93]

Oh and as an aside, try not to run your sensitivity much over 24…the machine is powerful enough to still find deep targets at or below 24, much over that and imo, it will false more and more…just my two and a half cents

 

[longbow62]

I dig very little iron with the Manticore, and I use ATHC as my go to program. I use no stabilizer either. I hunt a few sites where the iron in the ground is ridiculous. Places you can pick a random spot and bury a coin a few inches deep, and there's a pretty good chance you won't even be able to detect it.
I like to completely circle all suspect targets. That will usually tell me if it's iron or not. You might get some guys on here saying if you are passing up one way signals you are missing stuff. Well, I've dug 1,000's of one way targets and the ratio tends to be so far skewed to the probability it's iron I quit worrying about it. Now if a one-way is like super solid coin numbers I don't it pass up. Honestly though I can't remember maybe only a couple that were actually coins.
The same goes for let's say a coin like a dime that's partially masked by iron and it's I.D. is somehow pulled down. On iron sites I dig all 2-way non-ferrous, but coins with I.D.'s pulled down by iron has happened so rarely I could probably even justify not digging junk I.D.'s.
Everybody has a threshold of what they will tolorate. I have a good digging buddy that digs way, way, more targets per hunt than I do. He doesn't on average find any more keepers than me and I'm digging a whole lot less than he is.

 

[ohmygato]

I dig very little iron with the Manticore, and I use ATHC as my go to program. I use no stabilizer either. I hunt a few sites where the iron in the ground is ridiculous. Places you can pick a random spot and bury a coin a few inches deep, and there's a pretty good chance you won't even be able to detect it.
I like to completely circle all suspect targets. That will usually tell me if it's iron or not. You might get some guys on here saying if you are passing up one way signals you are missing stuff. Well, I've dug 1,000's of one way targets and the ratio tends to be so far skewed to the probability it's iron I quit worrying about it. Now if a one-way is like super solid coin numbers I don't it pass up. Honestly though I can't remember maybe only a couple that were actually coins.
The same goes for let's say a coin like a dime that's partially masked by iron and it's I.D. is somehow pulled down. On iron sites I dig all 2-way non-ferrous, but coins with I.D.'s pulled down by iron has happened so rarely I could probably even justify not digging junk I.D.'s.
Everybody has a threshold of what they will tolorate. I have a good digging buddy that digs way, way, more targets per hunt than I do. He doesn't on average find any more keepers than me and I'm digging a whole lot less than he is.

Thank you. Yes I have found that circling the target has been 100% so far. I did find one Merc that was pretty iffy in one direction but good in every other direction. But iron is starting to seem very obvious with this method.

 

[markinswpa]

I see some hints in there but no surefire 100% true/false (or even >50%) methods. It appears we're still learning and the expectation for high accuracy may be too high.

Have not read through entire thread so not sure if anybody brought this up.
I would say in response, thats not entirely true. One given is that a good target will not move ! I emphasize, a good target will not move. If you get a high tone, remember the spot, turn 90 degrees, if it tones even two inches away or farther, likely junk or at the very least too big to be coin. There is always the chance of a masked target or two targets under the coil, and I'm one of those guys that think "well it could be " and after digging thousands of holes have found only junk. I would rather have a good one way tone and silence at 90 degrees as that would be more indicative of a masked target as it is only seeing it down the barrel. This is where I hope to learn from the target trace.
Another method I like to use, I will do a wiggle back on the target, most times if its a good target the tone will follow the wiggle and drop off the edge of the coil. Then I will pull back a bit and pinpoint for size. I prefer the smaller coils. If you loose tone on the wiggle back before the end good chance your falsing off the tip of a rusty nail or bolt that really wasn't under your coil. Hope some of this makes sense and good luck.

 

[matt93]

I dig very little iron with the Manticore, and I use ATHC as my go to program. I use no stabilizer either. I hunt a few sites where the iron in the ground is ridiculous. Places you can pick a random spot and bury a coin a few inches deep, and there's a pretty good chance you won't even be able to detect it.
I like to completely circle all suspect targets. That will usually tell me if it's iron or not. You might get some guys on here saying if you are passing up one way signals you are missing stuff. Well, I've dug 1,000's of one way targets and the ratio tends to be so far skewed to the probability it's iron I quit worrying about it. Now if a one-way is like super solid coin numbers I don't it pass up. Honestly though I can't remember maybe only a couple that were actually coins.
The same goes for let's say a coin like a dime that's partially masked by iron and it's I.D. is somehow pulled down. On iron sites I dig all 2-way non-ferrous, but coins with I.D.'s pulled down by iron has happened so rarely I could probably even justify not digging junk I.D.'s.
Everybody has a threshold of what they will tolorate. I have a good digging buddy that digs way, way, more targets per hunt than I do. He doesn't on average find any more keepers than me and I'm digging a whole lot less than he is.

I made some killer pulls today with the Manticore.
A suspected home site which became obvious in all metal just completely littered with nails and iron…a ‘30 Buffalo, an ‘18 Merc and an ‘18 Wheatie in so much crap I could only get a good signal in one direction, when I turned on the target it was almost all but gone and just…junky, especially the Buffalo. I had just enough of an inkling that there might be a coin there that I just had to dig and was rewarded

 

[longbow62]

I made some killer pulls today with the Manticore.
A suspected home site which became obvious in all metal just completely littered with nails and iron…a ‘30 Buffalo, an ‘18 Merc and an ‘18 Wheatie in so much crap I could only get a good signal in one direction, when I turned on the target it was almost all but gone and just…junky, especially the Buffalo. I had just enough of an inkling that there might be a coin there that I just had to dig and was rewarded

Yes, if you get a good one way, and then turn and you're still getting a non ferrous regardless of the numbers dig it! That's normally what I look for on iffy targets on heavy iron sites before I will dig.

 

[Diga]

I would rather have a good one way tone and silence at 90 degrees as that would be more indicative of a masked target as it is only seeing it down the barrel.

I made some killer pulls today with the Manticore.
A suspected home site which became obvious in all metal just completely littered with nails and iron…a ‘30 Buffalo, an ‘18 Merc and an ‘18 Wheatie in so much crap I could only get a good signal in one direction, when I turned on the target it was almost all but gone and just…junky, especially the Buffalo. I had just enough of an inkling that there might be a coin there that I just had to dig and was rewarded

Exactly to both those quotes.

One of my main hunting sites is old house tear outs that are always covered in nails. Most of the nonferrous targets are masked and only hit in one direction. If I skipped those because the nonferrous signal disappeared or broke up when turning on it, then I would be leaving the majority of good targets in the ground.

Ask yourself: "Why is my detector giving me a good nonferrous signal in only one direction"? It's because the nonferrous target is either deep, on edge or edged, or masked by iron. If I dig such one way signals and they are often turning out to be nail falses, then I know my iron filter / iron bias / iron limits, are too low. Raise those settings accordingly and almost all those one way nonferrous hits will be a nonferrous target mixed with one or more nails.

 

[Rattlehead]

One of my main hunting sites is old house tear outs that are always covered in nails. Most of the nonferrous targets are masked and only hit in one direction. If I skipped those because the nonferrous signal disappeared or broke up when turning on it, then I would be leaving the majority of good targets in the ground.

I agree. Same on a lot of my sites. Some of the non-ferrous targets are so masked that you might only get a one way signal, which is only audible through a very narrow window. If you move a few degrees, it's gone. This is why I prefer to judge by the tone quality vs turning 90 degrees. I can usually tell ferrous/non-ferrous without rotating at all. A side benefit is that the tone quality method is faster since you don't have to waste as much time interrogating the target.

 

[Beachhunt1]

Thank you. Yes I have found that circling the target has been 100% so far. I did find one Merc that was pretty iffy in one direction but good in every other direction. But iron is starting to seem very obvious with this method.

There is a method which is 98% bullet proof. May not work well in heavy targets but it you have separation; it is very effective. VERY easy on the Equinox 800, 900. 1 tone horseshoe on. EVERY Iron target at depth will either double beep or have a breakdown in detection on one direction. So effective at the beach. You can ID targets that cannot even be heard in discrimination.
Manticore is harder to set-up, but I think we finally cracked it. Upper and lower ferrous must be erased and horseshoe mode on, one tone. Then the Manticore will double beep and have a break-down in one direction on deep ferrous.

 

[longbow62]

You guys must be living in a different universe than me. Yes, I do dig some bent nails that sounded to good not to dig. Yes, I do run across occasional great sounding one-way targets I dig, but in 8 years of detecting I bet less than 5 turned out to be a coin. If anything I would say the thing that most often happens in and around iron is a target that when you've moved it from digging has either a better or worse I.D. Like I've lost targets because I masked them while digging them out. Or I improved the I.D. by unmasking it as I dug it out.
Not long ago my digging buddy found a larger flat button. I dropped it on the top of the ground where I was standing and could not hear it from any direction on top of the ground. I had to pick it up and move it. Then boom! I could hear it. I buried a dime in just a random spot about 10 ft. from the truck about 6" deep. Ha! not a chance hearing it! I had to dig it back up and still had a hard time hearing it then. 1 Barber quarter, 1 barber dime, 2 half-dimes, 3 Shields, 4 V's, 20+ flat buttons. Strangely only 3 IHP's so far. Out of the coins and buttons listed above I found 9 of the coins and well over half the buttons using my method of only circling and walking away from practically every one-way target I come across. The one ways I have dug on this site have all been iron!
My buddy uses a Manticore or the DII most of the time on this site and he is just as good as me or maybe even better. He digs probably double the targets that I do. Still I have found a lot more coins and buttons than he has. I might add that I have found every coin with the 11" coil. I have found maybe 2-3 flat buttons with the M8, but much prefer the 11" coil in open areas. My buddy has used the M9 on the Manticore and the 9" on the DII, most of the time. There is nothing that I have seen or heard that would make me change the way I decide to either dig or walk away!

 

[Diga]

The one ways I have dug on this site have all been iron!

Why are you getting so much iron falsing?

Why not increase your iron limits so that the iron falsing is mitigated? That way, you don't have to constantly interrogate those one way hits, and most of the one way hits will be nonferrous targets.

 

[Rattlehead]

Not long ago my digging buddy found a larger flat button. I dropped it on the top of the ground where I was standing and could not hear it from any direction on top of the ground. I had to pick it up and move it. Then boom! I could hear it. I buried a dime in just a random spot about 10 ft. from the truck about 6" deep. Ha! not a chance hearing it!

Sounds like my yard. You can dig a random hole anywhere in the yard and find 10-15 old nails in the plug. In most places you can't hear targets right on top of the ground. Terrible soil. I've found several old coins there, but almost all of them were really iffy narrow signals.

 

[longbow62]

Why are you getting so much iron falsing?

Why not increase your iron limits so that the iron falsing is mitigated? That way, you don't have to constantly interrogate those one way hits, and most of the one way hits will be nonferrous targets.

Why change settings when I am finding more than the buddy who is using some stabilizer and a 9" coil? While I'm using the stock 11" reduced ferrous limits and no stabilizer! I see a lot of guys on here saying do this or that, and they don't ever post what they are finding to back it up. Some I trust for good info others not so much.