Manticore - Discerning between nails and deep silver

[hammeredhunter]

I read an interesting blurb last night in the user manual about ATHC that stood out to me: "This is a high-powered Search Mode that will reduce battery run time by approximately one hour."

I wonder how much this extra power alone (and not the high conductor frequency rating) excites ferrous targets that may create additional falsing.

I was running ATHC yesterday on some heavy plough in an effort to get a bit more depth, I noticed that I could hear a lot more background iron when compared to ATG, also looking at the manual ATHC has a higher stabiliser setting 4 vs 1. I didn't feel I was getting more falsing but it was definitely "seeing" more iron. Switching between ATHC and ATG showed that when you did get falsing, it appeared at different VDIs for the same target. ie 70s vs 45s

 

[ohmygato]

I was running ATHC yesterday on some heavy plough in an effort to get a bit more depth, I noticed that I could hear a lot more background iron when compared to ATG, also looking at the manual ATHC has a higher stabiliser setting 4 vs 1. I didn't feel I was getting more falsing but it was definitely "seeing" more iron. Switching between ATHC and ATG showed that when you did get falsing, it appeared at different VDIs for the same target. ie 70s vs 45s

This is what I have experienced as well. The main challenge with ATHC is that iron is more prone to produce a very high squeak if you swing over it at the right angle. By "very high" I mean higher than the highest high conductor I have found by ~5 TIDs or so.

So yesterday I was experimenting with ATHC high discrimination, basically discriminating out everything below 65 and above 95. I'm not sure if this is a reasonable approach but I'm looking forward to trying this out at some high trash sites soon.

 

[hammeredhunter]

I would always be very careful about discriminating anything out, in the UK our common milled gold coins (1/2 and whole sovereigns) come in at 35 and 51 and I have had 2 big silver medals (27g/38mm dia and 52g/53mm dia) which came in at 96 and 97 (see picture). I've also had very deep non ferrous targets come in at repeatable high 90s.

With both ATG and ATHC I use a 2 region, all tones, all metal set up, 1st region 1-4 set to sound like iron to avoid coke and then the 2nd region starting at 5 with pitch 20 and just a smooth rising pitch up to 50 at 99. Ferrous Volume at 3 and the Ferrous Pitch at 1. I run the upper limit at 4 to 7 and have my bottom limit set at zero, stabiliser on 1 and filter off.

I do get some iron falshing in the very high 90s but it is relatively easy to spot as iron with a couple of tricks, remembering my big silvers I do still dig a few high 90s and mostly they are iron but occasionally they are not and produce something unexpected and nice.

When I have been using ATHC I have noticed that the falsing I was getting at 45-50 with ATG moves to the 70s.

 

[Cherry Picker]

This is what I have experienced as well. The main challenge with ATHC is that iron is more prone to produce a very high squeak if you swing over it at the right angle. By "very high" I mean higher than the highest high conductor I have found by ~5 TIDs or so.

So yesterday I was experimenting with ATHC high discrimination, basically discriminating out everything below 65 and above 95. I'm not sure if this is a reasonable approach but I'm looking forward to trying this out at some high trash sites soon.

My Deus does that using 50 kHz. Iron almost always falses with an extremely high tone.

 

[ohmygato]

I would always be very careful about discriminating anything out, in the UK our common milled gold coins (1/2 and whole sovereigns) come in at 35 and 51 and I have had 2 big silver medals (27g/38mm dia and 52g/53mm dia) which came in at 96 and 97 (see picture). I've also had very deep non ferrous targets come in at repeatable high 90s.

With both ATG and ATHC I use a 2 region, all tones, all metal set up, 1st region 1-4 set to sound like iron to avoid coke and then the 2nd region starting at 5 with pitch 20 and just a smooth rising pitch up to 50 at 99. Ferrous Volume at 3 and the Ferrous Pitch at 1. I run the upper limit at 4 to 7 and have my bottom limit set at zero, stabiliser on 1 and filter off.

I do get some iron falshing in the very high 90s but it is relatively easy to spot as iron with a couple of tricks, remembering my big silvers I do still dig a few high 90s and mostly they are iron but occasionally they are not and produce something unexpected and nice.

When I have been using ATHC I have noticed that the falsing I was getting at 45-50 with ATG moves to the 70s.

I'm definitely aware of the issues with discrimination. I was an anti-discrimination guy until about 2 months ago, and still rarely use it. When I do I am typically in a location where the ONLY good targets are silver dimes and quarters, with wheaties and clad being much more common and mixed in with silver. And of course the trash in these locations varies all the way from the lowest possible foil to large iron objects, and is much more abundant yet than even the clad. This is most likely because the site has been completely hammered by prior MDers... there are just not many public parks and school yards that haven't been hit hard here. We have a lot of trash here in many parks. I would guess 100:1 bad to good targets at a bare minimum. So successful coinshooting requires some discrimination, either by human TID or MD TID.

As to whether to use ATG or ATHC I am fairly certain now after just a couple of tests that ATG is the better way to go, and that's because iron often sounds GREAT on ATHC where it sounds like iron on ATG, and I know this for certain because I've done immediate comparisons between the two programs switching back and forth between programs and finally digging the target. On a good target, a coin will sound like a coin on either program while iron may easily sound like a coin (even using all the typical circling the target, pinpointing, etc. tricks) on ATHC but not on ATG.

So ATHC for me is likely to get relegated to a specialty program, one where I know for certain that there is potential for silver but where the trash is all low conductor and very little iron. Those sites around here are very few and far between.

 

[hammeredhunter]

I would agree, while ATHC could be of use in certain specific circumstances, ATG is always be my default setting. However, it is certainly worth setting the two up with exactly the same settings so you can compare a few un disturbed targets before you dig them. I must admit I've never had iron sounding "great" with ATHC, there are normally enough signs that tell you it is going to be iron but targets do require more investigation so you can waste a lot of time.

I would add that I've also toyed with ATLC but I'm not a fan, it just seems to be too sensitive to shallow small items so you spend a lot of time recovering tiny bits of lead and aluminium. my main desirable low conductor targets ie fragments of silver hammered coins can certainly be found with ATG when you have it correctly dialled in.

 

[Rattlehead]

Yesterday I decided to go for a short hunt at a nearby park. The site dates back to the 1800s and has been hit hard for decades by everybody and their brother, with every detector known to man.

I knew all the obvious signals were long gone, so I decided to use a different strategy. I opened up the Manticore to accept everything from the nickel range on up, and only dug deeper non-ghosty signals that repeated in at least one direction. What some of us refer to as discriminating with your ears. Started out with some nonferrous junk, followed by a deep wheat, which was a good sign. Then I got a deep signal (4 arrows) reading in the upper 50s. It was a one way hit and only in one direction… Even if I turned just a few degrees, it completely disappeared. It did sound solid though. Didn't have the ghosty sound that I mentioned earlier in this thread... so I dug out a deep plug. I flipped it over and scanned it again. Now I was getting a loud 80-81 signal at the very bottom of the plug! I ran my pinpointer across it and a Barber dime fell out. I knew it was a very handicapped signal, so I checked to see what else was in the hole/plug. Big ol’ lump of iron, two nails and lots of iron flakes.

Anyway, posting this here because it reminded me of this thread. Had I used the turn 90 degree method on this particular target, I would've walked away. No doubt about it. I wish I had recorded it, but it was just a lazy afternoon hunt so I didn't bother bringing my camera. I do have a video of a very similar signal posted on my channel, which also turned out to be a silver coin. I get it, everyone has their own method.... but I can just about guarantee that if you're strictly using the turn 90 method, you're leaving some good targets in the ground.

 

[BobOso]

Yesterday I decided to go for a short hunt at a nearby park. The site dates back to the 1800s and has been hit hard for decades by everybody and their brother, with every detector known to man.

View attachment 613346

I knew all the obvious signals were long gone, so I decided to use a different strategy. I opened up the Manticore to accept everything from the nickel range on up, and only dug deeper non-ghosty signals that repeated in at least one direction. What some of us refer to as discriminating with your ears. Started out with some nonferrous junk, followed by a deep wheat, which was a good sign. Then I got a deep signal (4 arrows) reading in the upper 50s. It was a one way hit and only in one direction… Even if I turned just a few degrees, it completely disappeared. It did sound solid though. Didn't have the ghosty sound that I mentioned earlier in this thread... so I dug out a deep plug. I flipped it over and scanned it again. Now I was getting a loud 80-81 signal at the very bottom of the plug! I ran my pinpointer across it and a Barber dime fell out. I knew it was a very handicapped signal, so I checked to see what else was in the hole/plug. Big ol’ lump of iron, two nails and lots of iron flakes.

View attachment 613347

Anyway, posting this here because it reminded me of this thread. Had I used the turn 90 degree method on this particular target, I would've walked away. No doubt about it. I wish I had recorded it, but it was just a lazy afternoon hunt so I didn't bother bringing my camera. I do have a video of a very similar signal posted on my channel, which also turned out to be a silver coin. I get it, everyone has their own method.... but I can just about guarantee that if you're strictly using the turn 90 method, you're leaving some good targets in the ground.

good find, just how I do it 1 way never turn until I return to that location and detect from a different angle, then more signals.

The turning 90 deg, may be useful to some, but I have lost more signals than I have found doing that, especially when iron is nearby.

 

[markinswpa]

Yesterday I decided to go for a short hunt at a nearby park. The site dates back to the 1800s and has been hit hard for decades by everybody and their brother, with every detector known to man.

View attachment 613346

I knew all the obvious signals were long gone, so I decided to use a different strategy. I opened up the Manticore to accept everything from the nickel range on up, and only dug deeper non-ghosty signals that repeated in at least one direction. What some of us refer to as discriminating with your ears. Started out with some nonferrous junk, followed by a deep wheat, which was a good sign. Then I got a deep signal (4 arrows) reading in the upper 50s. It was a one way hit and only in one direction… Even if I turned just a few degrees, it completely disappeared. It did sound solid though. Didn't have the ghosty sound that I mentioned earlier in this thread... so I dug out a deep plug. I flipped it over and scanned it again. Now I was getting a loud 80-81 signal at the very bottom of the plug! I ran my pinpointer across it and a Barber dime fell out. I knew it was a very handicapped signal, so I checked to see what else was in the hole/plug. Big ol’ lump of iron, two nails and lots of iron flakes.

View attachment 613347

Anyway, posting this here because it reminded me of this thread. Had I used the turn 90 degree method on this particular target, I would've walked away. No doubt about it. I wish I had recorded it, but it was just a lazy afternoon hunt so I didn't bother bringing my camera. I do have a video of a very similar signal posted on my channel, which also turned out to be a silver coin. I get it, everyone has their own method.... but I can just about guarantee that if you're strictly using the turn 90 method, you're leaving some good targets in the ground.

Nice save Dewayne. A good one way with lower numbers and pinpoint says its small and under the coil, I'm digging. Say in the 60s and into the 80s. Most one ways in the mid to high 90s have been junk for me. I will still dig it them if the tone is right. Way to bird dog those masked silvers. Good luck.

 

[Digging Prayers]

All I can say is AT-HC seems to hit silver silver harder and deeper.

If I understand correctly, the reason the AT-HC hits silver harder and deeper is due to the frequency used to hit a high conductor.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. High conductive targets,IE :Silver, requires a lower frequency to make it sound off, "the best".
Lower frequencies also have better ground penetration for depth. So, the lower weighted SMF "simultaneous Multi-frequencies"
are leaning harder on the lower frequencies to hit the high conductive silver targets. With lower frequencies ability to penetrate deeper in the soil, you get the best of both worlds,- Depth and better response of higher conductors. Of course there is also trade offs on any programs you are using but if depth and silver is what you are after, that sounds like a good stock program starting point. I don't know, I yet to have one of these beauties, but the science of the conversation sounds right anyway.

Update: just finished reading all the post. The question was answered in detail.
Good thread. I may not own a Manti or D2,(yet ) but the info is very helpful.
Thank you.

 

[markinswpa]

If I understand correctly, the reason the AT-HC hits silver harder and deeper is due to the frequency used to hit a high conductor.

DP you are correct, the lower frequencies will hit a high conductors better. However, going back to Feb.of 18. I got an 800. The general consensus at the time was Park 2 was hitting deeper than Park 1. So I used that until I was met up with a FFM using Park 1 and was crushing the silver. I was hunting with him when he dug his 100th silver in May. Yeah May. Had him set me up. I did start digging more silver but also alot more iron. By the fall of 19 I felt that I hit a lull. I had read about a guy using Field 2 in 5 tone and decided to give it a try. The next 3 years was the best I've ever had. So now on to the Manticore. I realize an airtest is nothing more than a baseline ID for an unimpeded target. With it hanging off my dinner table, sensitivity at 26 there was no difference on high conductors between ATLC and ATHC. Where ATHC petered out was on mid tones at about 11 inches while ATLC hit them down to 14 inches. So given my success with Field 2 on the 800 I naturally gravitated to ATLC with the Manticore and have enjoyed some reasonable success with it so far. Good luck

 

[Digging Prayers]

DP you are correct, the lower frequencies will hit a high conductors better. However, going back to Feb.of 18. I got an 800. The general consensus at the time was Park 2 was hitting deeper than Park 1. So I used that until I was met up with a FFM using Park 1 and was crushing the silver. I was hunting with him when he dug his 100th silver in May. Yeah May. Had him set me up. I did start digging more silver but also alot more iron. By the fall of 19 I felt that I hit a lull. I had read about a guy using Field 2 in 5 tone and decided to give it a try. The next 3 years was the best I've ever had. So now on to the Manticore. I realize an airtest is nothing more than a baseline ID for an unimpeded target. With it hanging off my dinner table, sensitivity at 26 there was no difference on high conductors between ATLC and ATHC. Where ATHC petered out was on mid tones at about 11 inches while ATLC hit them down to 14 inches. So given my success with Field 2 on the 800 I naturally gravitated to ATLC with the Manticore and have enjoyed some reasonable success with it so far. Good luck

Hmm, I predominantly hunt Pk2 with my Elite. It seems like it hits everything down to very small fine pieces. I literally dug the remains of a fired pellet rifle pellet the other day. By videos I've seen, I have been under the impression that all the #2 programs hit deeper anyway, (except maybe beach, I have no experience). I recently used Fld2 in one of my worked areas with better results in picking up things I missed. Every time I think it has been hunted out, I find something new. I need the "Six Million Dollar Man" detector.
One that detects deeper, stronger, faster....

I guess the takeaway is, hunt an area in as many cross directions as you can in one setting. Come back and try it all over again in another setting, and do it again.... In each scenario, you are chipping away at "layers", whether that be by depth, trashy target masking or whatever. The next pass takes you further into the area to missed targets. I, like others, would like to find that "just right" setting to do it all at once.

I guess the point is, its a long game with multiple passes/visits. Get all you can with your first visit and then start looking for what you missed with that setting. It's not hunted out.

 

[Mach]

I think the reality is, if there is silver right next to an iron nail you will read some iron and some silver. there is no way around that.

And in today's hunted out dirt, those are the silvers that stand a good chance of still being there because older detectors were too slow to differntiate both and just showed the bigger signal, usually the nail.

So I dig any hint of silver as long as there is something under the pinpointer where I am getting the silver ID, knowing I will be digging some false silver readings.

 

[mikenannie]

Very interesting thread. I found it today after a hunt last night. This is a post from my hunt results. I highlighted my comments that relate to this post. Now I know that the additional falsing in ATHC wasn’t just my imagination. I’m new to the Manticore. After that dime find, I started switching back and forth between AT general and ATHC on the new targets, but didn’t come to any conclusions.

Anyone here use the red color ID technique to help identify iron?
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Went back to the permission site where I found the 1898 barber dime two days ago. This time I found this 1878 seated dime. Very deep, poor condition unfortunately.

I had the M9 coil on the machine, and was running the high conductors mode, sensitivity on 25. VDI was 83 from two different directions. While removing soil from the hole, I lost the target completely. Almost gave up, which happens often to me it seems, but I knew I had a target and it had to be there. Removed more dirt, and the pinpointer found the target again. Audio was on advanced, rich profile, stabilizer was 4 which is the default for this mode. Lot of iron at this location too.

After this find, I started to listen for those soft high tones. And subsequently found a few deep rusty nails. Not sure if that’s a result of the high conductor mode, or my focus on trying to find another deep silver, or falsing. Any insights from more experienced users?

Do you use or prefer one mode over another? I switched between all terrain general and high conductor and noticed quite a difference in tonal qualities of targets.

This was my oldest silver coin ever after detecting since the 1970s, so very happy with the Manticores powers. I just need more skills in tuning it up based on conditions.
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