Legend and Manticore on Iron Live field digs

[Fivepin]

OK So before you get into this be warned. It is not a scientific test. I cannot say that if you took these two machines to your back woods they would react the same. It is simple a little test I did running the machines over live finds at a 120 year old fairground. Coil sizes were not the same, so at depth this could have one machine read things differently than the other...Multifrequency is a mysterious M3 vs General can of worms I don't even care to try and evaluate. LOL. This is not a one machine is better than the other test. It is simply something I did out of curiosity. I am not an expert on either machine. I do this for fun. That being said I do have 10,000 hours out in the field enjoying the hobby. So I have to say I'm not new at this either. I found the results interesting. I did not figure that one machine would read so differently on targets than the other on the same item. Don't take this too seriously. And here we Go!

 

[Rattlehead]

Interesting video. Concerning the iron falsing on the Manticore, where do you have your upper limits set? Looks like you're running them pretty low? Also, you mentioned that you have the stabilizer at 2. For me, that setting doesn't seem like it really starts to do anything until I put it up to at least 3 or 4.

I'd be curious to see what happens with those same falsing signals with the upper limits set at around 9 or 10 and the stabilizer at 4. I have no experience with the Legend, but how would those Manticore settings compare with the Legend's iron bias settings you were using in that video? Basically, I'm wondering where you'd need to put the Manticore's upper limits and Stabilizer settings so that it is the equivalent to the IB setting being used on the Legend. Then once they're matched up, how will falsing and their unmasking abilities compare?

 

[jmaclen]

Thanks for all of the work it takes to try to learn these detectors and to make a head to head video.
My comments are not being critical. They are just observations of what I saw and are not observations about anything you said in the video.

The Manticore did very well in your video.
Manticore was not using the default discrimination pattern for All Terrain General.
Sometimes the Manticore had iron range target IDs and audio accepted and sometimes it didn't.
I would have liked to have seen and heard the target responses with iron range target IDs and audio accepted on the 6" long (galvanized/stainless steel?) nail/spike at 16:50 in the video. The target's Target Trace response was halfway into the upper ferrous limit and should have had some other iron responses/indications that were being blocked by having the horseshoe button disengaged.

The Legend running Park M3, G discrimination pattern did great. It's a solid performer and its Ferro Check function along with it's straight forward ferrous/non ferrous discrimination on surface to 6" or so deep ferrous and mixed ferrous targets often makes it much easier to determine conductivity on shallow to mid depth targets. Hopefully that feature helps you folks in Canada with some of your steel core modern coins.

I do see about an 1" or a little more difference in depth on really deep high conductor coins between the Manticore and Legend with both using 11" coils and both running with iron responses accepted with the Manticore using stock All Terrain General, recovery speed 4, sensitivity 25, stability OFF and with the Legend running Park M1, A discrimination pattern, recovery speed 4, sensitivity 27, iron filter on 0 or 1, bottle caps 0, deep target 1 using V1.15. I don't run either detector with tracking ground balance ON. I do ground grab ground balancing but that is just what I do here in Colorado due to bad iron mineralization.

I hope you are able to get both detectors over some deep coins in your next video comparison.

 

[Fivepin]

Thanks for all of the work it takes to try to learn these detectors and to make a head to head video.
My comments are not being critical. They are just observations of what I saw and are not observations about anything you said in the video.

The Manticore did very well in your video.
Manticore was not using the default discrimination pattern for All Terrain General.
Sometimes the Manticore had iron range target IDs and audio accepted and sometimes it didn't.
I would have liked to have seen and heard the target responses with iron range target IDs and audio accepted on the 6" long (galvanized/stainless steel?) nail/spike at 16:50 in the video. The target's Target Trace response was halfway into the upper ferrous limit and should have had some other iron responses/indications that were being blocked by having the horseshoe button disengaged.

The Legend running Park M3, G discrimination pattern did great. It's a solid performer and its Ferro Check function along with it's straight forward ferrous/non ferrous discrimination on surface to 6" or so deep ferrous and mixed ferrous targets often makes it much easier to determine conductivity on shallow to mid depth targets. Hopefully that feature helps you folks in Canada with some of your steel core modern coins.

I do see about an 1" or a little more difference in depth on really deep high conductor coins between the Manticore and Legend with both using 11" coils and both running with iron responses accepted with the Manticore using stock All Terrain General, recovery speed 4, sensitivity 25, stability OFF and with the Legend running Park 1, A discrimination pattern, recovery speed 4, sensitivity 27, iron filter on 0 or 1, bottle caps 0, deep target 1 using V1.15. I don't run either detector with tracking ground balance ON. I do ground grab ground balancing but that is just what I do here in Colorado due to bad iron mineralization.

I hope you are able to get both detectors over some deep coins in your next video comparison.

Thx Jm, Yes I run the manticore for coins with iron off...but switch it on to check every hole before I dig. When I go for relics I run it with iron on...as for Canada clad...if you run the machines in 40khz...no problem picks them up. Manticore and legend...but I rarely go after clad. Much more interested in older sites.

 

[Fivepin]

Interesting video. Concerning the iron falsing on the Manticore, where do you have your upper limits set? Looks like you're running them pretty low? Also, you mentioned that you have the stabilizer at 2. For me, that setting doesn't seem like it really starts to do anything until I put it up to at least 3 or 4.

I'd be curious to see what happens with those same falsing signals with the upper limits set at around 9 or 10 and the stabilizer at 4. I have no experience with the Legend, but how would those Manticore settings compare with the Legend's iron bias settings you were using in that video? Basically, I'm wondering where you'd need to put the Manticore's upper limits and Stabilizer settings so that it is the equivalent to the IB setting being used on the Legend. Then once they're matched up, how will falsing and their unmasking abilities compare?

Yes Rattlehead I find stabilizer doesn't do anything until I hit about 8...but just thought that day I would run on 2 instead of 1 which its usually on...no reason I just did...I also don't want to set things too high when I am doing a comparison like this because too many variables and then one machine can look terrible because I had a bad setting...I love both these machines...just wish the manticore had more iron in its tone.

 

[AccurateCalls]

It would appear to me that the machines are performing exactly as they should given your settings and are basically giving you identical calls on each target. On the foil target, you have the Legend in M3, which is designed to be less sensitive to foil, thus its not hitting as well on the foil.

2. A new multi frequency (M3) has been added to PARK and FIELD modes.
Ideal for humid, wet and/or conductive soils.
It reduces the effect of moisture in soils which can cause falses. It also weakens the response of targets generating 10-11 IDs such as coke and aluminum foil.

The target at 16:50 that you are saying the Manticore is calling a good target, is exactly the opposite. The Manticore is telling you its a highly likely ferrous target. You simply have your ferrous limits adjusted lower than the default, the effect of which is that the machine will classify more iron as non-iron. The same would happen with the Legend with commensurate settings. I am genuinely not trying to be rude, but the Manticore was not wrong on that target, your interpretation of it's response given your settings is wrong. Lowering the ferrous limits directly causes the detector to classify more ferrous targets as non-ferrous and therefore it is doing exactly as you set it to do.

 

[Fivepin]

It would appear to me that the machines are performing exactly as they should given your settings and are basically giving you identical calls on each target. On the foil target, you have the Legend in M3, which is designed to be less sensitive to foil, thus its not hitting as well on the foil.



The target at 16:50 that you are saying the Manticore is calling a good target, is exactly the opposite. The Manticore is telling you its a highly likely ferrous target. You simply have your ferrous limits adjusted lower than the default, the effect of which is that the machine will classify more iron as non-iron. The same would happen with the Legend with commensurate settings. I am genuinely not trying to be rude, but the Manticore was not wrong on that target, your interpretation of it's response given your settings is wrong. Lowering the ferrous limits directly causes the detector to classify more ferrous targets as non-ferrous and therefore it is doing exactly as you set it t

 

[Fivepin]

Ac: I was under the impression that the upper and lower limits would reject a target not change its tone to an iron reject sound...correct me If I am wrong. I was told to open the machine up to -17 and + 17 to have everything come through. As was explained to me items should ring a truer id. I was told to do this to stop nails that were just on the edge of the set limits from squeaking through and giving a false high tone. So if anyone can verify one way or the other I feel I don't understand the upper and lower limits. What you are telling me is the opposite of advice I was given previously. Not saying you are wrong. Just would like clarification on this...Anybody?

 

[Rattlehead]

Horseshoe on gives targets in the limits an iron tone. Horseshoe off rejects them completely. I wish there was a way to have the iron tone with the horseshoe off as well. The only way of knowing you’re over iron via audio while using disc is to use a threshold.

As for setting the limits, unless I’m on a heavily hunted site trying to squeak out a masked find, I drop the limits down until the amount of falsing is tolerable. Depending on what’s in the ground, some sites require more than others, so I don’t really use a set number.

 

[AirmetTango]

Ac: I was under the impression that the upper and lower limits would reject a target not change its tone to an iron reject sound...correct me If I am wrong. I was told to open the machine up to -17 and + 17 to have everything come through. As was explained to me items should ring a truer id. I was told to do this to stop nails that were just on the edge of the set limits from squeaking through and giving a false high tone. So if anyone can verify one way or the other I feel I don't understand the upper and lower limits. What you are telling me is the opposite of advice I was given previously. Not saying you are wrong. Just would like clarification on this...Anybody?

Whoever told you this was wrong, or something got misconstrued in the translation. Changing the ferrous limits absolutely changes the tone, and it’s very easy to confirm for yourself. Put a rusty iron nail on top of the ground and swing over it with the upper limit set at 0 and then again with the limit set at 10 or 12 (with the horseshoe button on). With the former setting, you will get a beautiful, pure non-ferrous tone. With the latter, you’ll get a pure iron tone. In both cases, you’ll get the same TID number, maybe something in the upper 50s depending on the nail. Depending how you have the MCore set, that 50s TID number will either be red or just underlined when the ferrous limit is set to 12.

It’s a big oversimplification, but you can think of the ferrous limits on the MCore as the iron bias, with the capability to be much more finely tuned and customized. Set the limits lower (lower numbers), and you are telling the machine to call iffier targets non-ferrous. Set them higher (higher numbers), and it’ll call more things ferrous.

Edit: Fixed an incorrect ferrous limit number

 

[AirmetTango]

Set the limits lower (lower numbers), and you are telling the machine to call iffier targets non-ferrous. Set them higher (higher numbers), and it’ll call more things ferrous.

I realize these two sentences can be easily misunderstood, so let me try to clarify: Set the upper/lower limits to smaller numbers, and you are telling the machine to call iffier targets non-ferrous. Set the limits to bigger numbers, and it’ll call more things ferrous. The upper limits tend to control how most iron objects (nails, screws, bolts, etc) are classified, while the lower limits tend to control flatter items like sheet metal or bottle caps.

 

[Fivepin]

I realize these two sentences can be easily misunderstood, so let me try to clarify: Set the upper/lower limits to smaller numbers, and you are telling the machine to call iffier targets non-ferrous. Set the limits to bigger numbers, and it’ll call more things ferrous. The upper limits tend to control how most iron objects (nails, screws, bolts, etc) are classified, while the lower limits tend to control flatter items like sheet metal or bottle caps.

Ok Cool thank you for the clarification.

 

[UT_Dave]

Small tidbit to add...

Reducing upper limits has potential to improve separation. Reducing lower limits has potential to improve depth. By reducing I mean smaller numbers, and increased so called falseing (to me, it's not, but people keep calling it that, so...).

I've been gradually moving towards running reduced (from default) upper and lower limits. Makes for a more chattery machine, but I think I'm seeing the separation and depth benefits. Which, with the Manticore, do not appear to be mutually exclusive in my limited experience. Add in the ability to put in some higher number bumps in the problem areas and I think the ferrous limits settings on the Manticore are pretty awesome.

- Dave