I found this item buried in the ground about 5" deep while metal detecting in my dad's yard. He had no idea it was there or where it came from - he's owned the home since 1977, it was built in 1925, before 1923 it was a hammock - tropical forest. The area was very lightly inhabited sporadically before the 1880's, by a few squatters, Indians, US Army, a planter or two (north of the river) and at times briefly by the Spanish going back to Ponce de Leon and Menendez Aviles, the explorers. I nicked the metal and it is gold colored under the "patina.", indicating to me it is probably bronze. I want to know if you think it is a modern item that some hobbyist hand-made from bronze brazing rods or if it is an antique. I was thinking it was modern the way the inside of the rods that form the tang (handle) seem cut perfectly straight on the inner sides of the rods. I don't know how far back the metal industry has been doing that; could we expect to see that in, say, the early 1600's, or is that a later technology? All the other surfaces seem to have been worked with a grinder (of some sort). It appears to me that the guard is made of the same bar stock as the tang and is brazed onto the tang. Apparently, brazing is a very old technology (going back to Sumer, 4000BC), so I'm not sure the fact it was brazed is a factor in dating it, either, though the way it is brazed may be. The fact it was only 5" deep also indicated to me it was probably dropped in the yard some time after 1925, although I admit I don't know how to date items from their depths in this area. For instance, I've found silver Franklin dimes in the grass roots, and one 8" or more deep. Any opinions?
Is this hand-made dagger modern or antique?
- Thread starter scaupus
- Start date
NHKeith
Forum Supporter
early 1900s is my guess by no means am i an expert though.
What part of the country are you in?
What part of the country are you in?
eli
Senior Member
I suggest you post this over at BritishBades.com, it's the most informative group I've ever seen when it comes to knives, edge weapons and related tools. This group includes historical experts, makers and collectors of many types of blades and they should be able to tell you a lot about this knife if it's not a one-off from some kids shop project.
sirwalle
Forum Supporter
I cant remember what the Pawn stars says about it. 
Longhair
Elite Member
It's deffinately made in a fire, and deffinately old. The answer to just how old may lie it what appear to be grinder marks.
Forge welding takes a lot of heat, but brazing and soldering can be done easily in most any fire. I still do some brazing and quite a bit of forge welding.
Forge welding takes a lot of heat, but brazing and soldering can be done easily in most any fire. I still do some brazing and quite a bit of forge welding.
Apparently, vertabra from severed heads were found in the Miami Circle at 12". Although not dated yet, those bones tell me that 4 or 5" of depth could easily place this blade in the early 1900's or earlier. Miami only had 91 inhabitants as late as 1891.
It kinda looks like a 1800-1900s tool for managing the indoor fireplace.
You know pushing the logs away, and stuff.
http://www.home-decor-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fire-tools
Something like that, also that hole in the handle for hanging it maybe?
You know pushing the logs away, and stuff.
http://www.home-decor-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fire-tools
Something like that, also that hole in the handle for hanging it maybe?
Landshark
Full Member
I guess Modern
Looking at certain striations on the side, it appears to have met with a belt sander at one time or another to shape the blade. I would finish it, and wrap the handle in leather strip. If you have access to a machine shop.
Looking at certain striations on the side, it appears to have met with a belt sander at one time or another to shape the blade. I would finish it, and wrap the handle in leather strip. If you have access to a machine shop.
I was thinking the same thing about the belt sander - but would a grindstone leave similar marks"? The evidence of grinding/sanding are all over.
it's a thought, but it's kind of short for a poker, and it has a guard and a shaped blade and both edges are sharp indicating it was definitely intended as an edged weapon. The circle pommel is curious and does look like it could have been intended for easy hanging. The fact it is bronze may indicate he intended to keep it on a boat, hanging on a hook by the tiller (btw, the property is 1/4 mile from the bay). Thanks for a thought provoking post.
that you have experience with the process of brazing in a fire lends credence to your opinion. I have done a little brazing but with a small oxy/mepp torch and it couldn't heat more than a small area at any one time, tho perhaps a large torch might be big enough to shape that blade out of 2 rods.
Do you think the grind or sanding marks were done on a stone wheel? I grew up 2 mile southwest of where I found this knife, on the same ridge that my dad's property is on, which runs along the bay. There was an old 1920's "mansion" right on the bluff line before the bay and it had a very old outbuilding that certainly predated the mansion. Coc. Grove had a sizable settlement before Miami did -they got a post office in 1873 and a hotel in 1883. By the outbuilding was one of those old heavy grindstones turned by pedals, or maybe a treadle, I'm not sure. Anyway, I do remember turning it and grounding an axe or tool or something with it. Interestingly enough, on the other side of the property (about 60 yards away) was an old garage. The inside was lined with license plates from earlier years. There was an old coral rock wall marking the property line, and about a quarter acre of remnant hammock. In the hammock we found a revolver, the butt rotted away. I don't remember if the cylinder still turned or if it was single or double action, but we turned it over to our neighbor, who we knew to be a "scientist" because he had a lab in an outbuilding behind his home. I guess we thought he'd be the one to handle the investigation. This was back around 1962. In any case, I've now found two old weapons on the Miami Ridge. Just to mention, there was another very old wood home (newer 1940's and 1950's homes were all CBS) with a steep gabled roof. On the property were two old Model T's rotting away, anyway I remember they were Fords with running boards. They were parked next to a solution hole that was about 8-10' deep and maybe 10' wide, I remember we could walk around in it. A similar hole in the ridge further south contained the skeletons of pre-columbian indians. That property, and almost all the old properties along there have had massive development since then and their secrets are now mostly buried under concrete foundations and tarmac, so it will be quite awhile before they ever see daylight if ever. Now I regret not digging them up when I had the chance as a kid, but I was too busy having rock fights and lighting fires. Just kidding.
Longhair
Elite Member
I think that the marks could have easily been made by an old treddle grinding wheel.
And given your proximity to the bay, it was probably constructed with the salt in mind. Could it have been made for cleaving big fish or gators? Maybe a poachers tool?
And given your proximity to the bay, it was probably constructed with the salt in mind. Could it have been made for cleaving big fish or gators? Maybe a poachers tool?
OOOPS! By the way, VERY NEAT FINDS!!! Good job.
Old Prospector
Full Member
Might be worth taking to a local museum, college, or antique dealer to learn more about it. At least then you'll know what you have!
emfederin
Elite Member
Redd
Elite Member
A well trained horse will stay in place when you drop the reins and step on them.
Well trained horses are hard to come by during times of war, the horse soldiers were always having them shot out from under them. Picket pins were issued to soldiers during the civil war and of all the things I have found I have not found one of them and I would like to. I found a sword stuck in the ground that was used as a picket pin but not a sure 'nuff picket pin. And of all the horses I have had I aint ever had one I would trust to be standing where I left it if I walked away from it for any length of time. Picket pin is just the first thing I thought of when I saw the picture...d2
