Looks Like "No Metal Detecting" to Me, Agree or Disagree? Your Thoughts?

[HarveyH48]

Getting told no, for anything we want in life, is a real buzz kill. Nobody enjoys disappointment. Think most of the people who ask about this topic, already suspect they aren't going to get the answer they want to hear, and hope for some encouragement to do it anyway. I don't think it's appropriate to use these forums to encourage, or give instruction, in ways to circumvent, or evade the rules. It really gives this forum, and the hobby, a shady, shifty, sneaky, undesireable image.

Playing the ignorant card, and begging forgiveness, is limited use in any one area. You can't keep going to the same park, and expect to be forgiven more than a few times. If there are so many people using that method, in the same park, the dude can't remember you were already informed, he is either close to retirement, or close to posting signs.

I think a lot of those rules probably don't really apply, least not for the entire park, but are more to encourage you to stop in first to inquire, so the park people can give you specific instructions on what they expect, and where you can and can't hunt. Just because they work in a park, doesn't make them evil. They are people, just like us. Wouldn't doubt some of them even metal detect, could even have a few members here. Doubt I'd admit to it here, after reading some of the nasty things some members post, which would be another reason to shut down the self-justification !!!!. How is post that fantasy garbage online, being descrete, or flying under the wire?

 

[PlasteredDragon]

Chuck, call them up and speak to someone in authority who is a not a petty bureaucrat. According to this set of laws, banging in a tent's spike is a no-no. Several gray squirrels are in the pokey from digging acorns!!

Clinton has the same rules. I called and talked to them. No digging at all is allowed.

Have you worked that area off Electric Avenue yet?

Hi Dave:

I e-mailed the director for the town in question, we'll see how that goes. Yeah Clinton apparently had problems with !!!!!! detectorists in the past. It's posted in most of their parks (that I've visited) that metal detecting is not allowed. In Gardner it's a little different, they haven't explicitly banned metal detecting (I've talked to their parks director as well) but it *is* posted 'no detecting' in all of their parks.

No I haven't done that wooded area on Electric Avenue, I met with the board of trustees for the land that it is on and they all seemed very positive except for one guy who kept trying to think up reasons to say no. (At his suggestion) they wanted to meet with their conservation board and discuss it, so I assume the answer is going to be 'no'. Makes no never mind, there are plenty of other places to detect, it was a long shot anyway.

 

[scout23]

What really bothers me is what caused these laws or ordinances. Is it because they saw idiots on TV doing it, some irresponsible unethical MD'er dug holes everywhere and left, or they just "think" MD'ers will tear the heck out of a place. My opinion is the later, they "think" that's what we will do. They based their decision on an uninformed opinion. Go to any park in the summer after a rain and see all the activity going on that is damaging the grass far worse than a flock of MD'ers could do. Baseball, soccer, football, bikes etc. But they don't have a problem with that. A park director came up to me one day I was detecting in the grass. I hit a coin and told him what it was and how deep(can't remember-2008) it was. I then cut a plug, removed the coin and replaced it. You could not tell where I had been, the only thing he said was "that's slick". I also had just hit the volleyball court and pulled out numerous bobby pins from new to needle like and a rusted fish hook, I showed him those and he couldn't believe stuff like that was in the sand. Then he bombarded me with questions about the MD(Ace 250) and if I found anything good etc. Whenever I hit one of the many parks he controls, he usually stops over to see how I'm doing. I usually show him something sharp or rusted that I found just to remind him I take out trash and leave the park a little safer and cleaner. As long as someone doesn't screw it up, I don't think we will have these type of laws in this town.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... the OBVIOUS meaning , that they don't want ANYONE digging ..... the wording is very precise , ......

Good post. Hard to dispute your reasoning.

Ok then: Seeing as how it's a black and white prohibition, and quite "obvious" with no wiggle room: Why are there ample stories of guys who get express permission to detect ? Can a public official give you or I "permission" to break laws ? (exceed speed limits, shoplift, etc...)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

This is true , but the same can be said of speeding or trespassing , or illegal drug use.....

Sounds convincing, but anecdotally is not squaring . Go see if you can get permission to speed, trespass, or use illegal drugs. I'm betting you'll get 100% "no's".

Then show up at a various city halls around you asking "can I metal detect, so long as, after I've dug, I leave no trace of my presence?"

I'm betting you could get a few "yes's" to the latter question. So what does that tell you about your examples of speed, illegal drugs, etc... versus dig-in-the-park ?

.... Not getting caught does not equal legal , ....

"getting caught" ? This implies a person is doing a "crime". If that premise is true, then yes: Everything else you say logically follows. But since when is this a given ? Isn't this the very topic we're discussing ? So your statement merely skips to the end. And assumes the very thing being discussed is a "given".

What would you say if you found out there's parks where you can detect right in front of multiple park personel, cops, etc.... and they pay you no mind ? Certainly they could "catch" you right then and there if it were so all-fired illegal and horrible.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... This is a regulation, and you must read the regulation in its entirety. To whit: "... without written permission of the Executive Assistant or his designee." The rule includes the exception right in the text of the rule.....

Ah, good catch. That deflates my "no one can get permission to break laws" argument" . Because as you've pointed out: That specifically ALLOWS them to bend such rules as they see fit. You got me on that one bro.

Ok then, I'll bite: How many of those football players do you think got "written permission of the executive Assistant or his designee" ? Because as you've pointed out, they've no doubt: "brushed a branch" ?

.... as noted by others, there are countless park activities that "disturb the turf" or "move a plant", and nobody is being hauled out of the park for playing frisbee or brushing the branches of a tree aside to retrieve a football. This means there is some room for interpretation and the spirit of the rule is what matters. It could as easily be taken to mean, "when you leave the park, everything should appear as it did when you arrived....

^^ This ^^ Bingo

... I've asked governing bodies for permission to do all sorts of things in my life, and only rarely have I felt that I wasn't given a fair shake...

Yes. And so too are there ample stories of fellows who got a "yes" to detect their parks. (Although I'm betting they left out mention of "dig" and "holes" and "remove", etc... ) And yes there's also examples of fellows who got a "no". And oddly, sometimes those "no's" came from places that were never a problem before. Or strangely, one guy gets a Yes and another gets a No, from the EXACT SAME city (depending on who they asked on different days).

I'd just be too afraid of the latter. Where I could preclude myself from a place that was actually a non-issue. Or that someone there gets the genius idea to make a rule , since this "pressing issue" is on their plate now, and they decide to make something specific.

 

[40acre1870]

I could see someone looking into the thefts at the Civil War battlefield, and their google search leading them to this thread...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... A park director came up to me one day I was detecting in the grass. .... . Whenever I hit one of the many parks he controls, he usually stops over to see how I'm doing. ...

Yes: Stories like yours abound, of

a) park workers coming up, showing an interest, thus giving their tacit "yes". Like in your case, where it's an obvious non-issue, even with someone high on the pecking order there. Or

b) getting a "yes" from someone at city hall.

However, using your city as a test: I bet I could find someone there, who perhaps is even higher up than that director, to tell you and me "no". All I'd need to do is hint at the valuables I'm selling for my own profit on ebay, and ask "shouldn't those belong in the city museum?". And mention "holes", "dig", "arpa", "liability", and then ask them to sign my permission slip.

 

[Mud-puppy]

Every single week we get to have fun with this question! Its common sense...I dont know if that can be taught...I would say Forum members are the most ethical detectorists out there....Everybody has a sense of behavior boundaries and is conscience of the visuals..

Most of getting by on this Planet is common sense and situational awareness...We dont drive the posted 70mph on I96 in a Northern blizzard, or on Floridas I4 in a frog strangler...Yet other people do and cause all sorts of calamity for us! We have over 50k deer/car collisions per year in Michigan, so a guy drives with great awareness and slower during Deer moving Times...

The infractions of somebody else with NO common sense affect us, but should not constrain us.. or apply to us...
Mud

 

[PlasteredDragon]

What really bothers me is what caused these laws or ordinances. Is it because they saw idiots on TV doing it, some irresponsible unethical MD'er dug holes everywhere and left, or they just "think" MD'ers will tear the heck out of a place. My opinion is the later, they "think" that's what we will do. {...}

Obviously all three possibilities (and countless others) apply, however there is a tendency in subcultures like ours and on forums like these to assume the worst and magnify the horror stories. Of course horror stories happen. We may dwell on them during our drive to the hunt, forgetting perhaps that there are far more horror stories of folks being killed in an auto accident.

I've been involved in a lot of hobbies over the years which involve varying levels of public contact, and in all of them I spent time on forums like these and found them rife with a sort of paranoia (or perhaps cynicism) over all the bad things that happen to innocent folks out enjoying our hobby when we have to interact with the public or with government officials. I heard it when I was into street photography, I heard it when I was into geocaching, and I heard it when I was into bird watching. I'm sure if I went to a forum on rollerblading, or skateboarding, or fishing, or hunting, or jogging, or rock climbing, I would find horror stories being passed around about interactions with the public or with government officials.

In my experience over the last 20+ years being involved in many outdoor activities that are a little unusual to the common public is that this paranoia/cynicism is unfounded. It's good to be a little paranoid as it keeps us on our best behavior, but too much can keep us from enjoying our hobby, and can discourage folks from taking up the hobby. More importantly, it can also cost us leads on permissions.

When I first came to this forum (before I had purchased my first detector), I became alarmed at the horror stories, it really made me fearful and I almost decided "eh, maybe I shouldn't get into this." That was 2014. Since then I've been on (according to my notes) 194 hunts, 99% of them on public lands, in full view of the public. I have been seen by literally (not figuratively) thousands of people, and I have interacted with hundreds. Do you know how many of them went into full busy-body freakout mode and called city hall or the cops? NONE. In all those hundreds of people, well over a thousand interactions, precisely TWO responded negatively to what I was doing, and in both cases this was resolved with a reasonable conversation.

I have interacted with groundskeepers, park officials, police, other government officials, and the general public and the vast majority of those interactions have been positive. Some have given me leads on permissions or good places to hunt.

Circling back to your point -- in my experience most government officials are just ordinary people. The pointy-haired, officious, only out to cover his butt, pencil-pusher is a worst case scenario but is not the norm. Most such folks are open to public requests, they have reasonable questions, and respond well to reasonable answers. Let's not be paranoid and cynical, it's not healthy.

 

[Mud-puppy]

Shhh there Dragon! This is a dangerous Manly Sport! Illegal in fact! Arrest and public shame awaits all those who venture here! What are you trying to do? Freak us all?
Mud

 

[zeemang]

I'd say go for it!

 

[Ice Scratcher]

This is true , but the same can be said of speeding or trespassing , or illegal drug use. Not getting caught does not equal legal , and therein lies the inconvenient truth.

99% of the detectors out there are law abiding citizens..

Proud to be a 1%, I'll take her up to 100 mph on my way to loot today just for you!

<°)))>{

 

[HarveyH48]

Obviously all three possibilities (and countless others) apply, however there is a tendency in subcultures like ours and on forums like these to assume the worst and magnify the horror stories. Of course horror stories happen. We may dwell on them during our drive to the hunt, forgetting perhaps that there are far more horror stories of folks being killed in an auto accident.

I've been involved in a lot of hobbies over the years which involve varying levels of public contact, and in all of them I spent time on forums like these and found them rife with a sort of paranoia (or perhaps cynicism) over all the bad things that happen to innocent folks out enjoying our hobby when we have to interact with the public or with government officials. I heard it when I was into street photography, I heard it when I was into geocaching, and I heard it when I was into bird watching. I'm sure if I went to a forum on rollerblading, or skateboarding, or fishing, or hunting, or jogging, or rock climbing, I would find horror stories being passed around about interactions with the public or with government officials.

In my experience over the last 20+ years being involved in many outdoor activities that are a little unusual to the common public is that this paranoia/cynicism is unfounded. It's good to be a little paranoid as it keeps us on our best behavior, but too much can keep us from enjoying our hobby, and can discourage folks from taking up the hobby. More importantly, it can also cost us leads on permissions.

When I first came to this forum (before I had purchased my first detector), I became alarmed at the horror stories, it really made me fearful and I almost decided "eh, maybe I shouldn't get into this." That was 2014. Since then I've been on (according to my notes) 194 hunts, 99% of them on public lands, in full view of the public. I have been seen by literally (not figuratively) thousands of people, and I have interacted with hundreds. Do you know how many of them went into full busy-body freakout mode and called city hall or the cops? NONE. In all those hundreds of people, well over a thousand interactions, precisely TWO responded negatively to what I was doing, and in both cases this was resolved with a reasonable conversation.

I have interacted with groundskeepers, park officials, police, other government officials, and the general public and the vast majority of those interactions have been positive. Some have given me leads on permissions or good places to hunt.

Circling back to your point -- in my experience most government officials are just ordinary people. The pointy-haired, officious, only out to cover his butt, pencil-pusher is a worst case scenario but is not the norm. Most such folks are open to public requests, they have reasonable questions, and respond well to reasonable answers. Let's not be paranoid and cynical, it's not healthy.

The funny thing is that there is basically on member, who is the major fear monger here, and pretty much anywhere else on the internet, that allows members to post, that is in any way related to metal detecting. I wouldn't get involved in a hobby, or any activity, which requires being sneaky, hiding what I'm doing from the general public, evading those in authority. Looking over my shoulder, just isn't what I consider fun. Maybe some people enjoy a little fantasy/role-playing, to add a little thrill and excitement to their lives. Just digging up something of value, or interesting, is all the fun I need from this hobby. I've never been to California or Colorado, so no experience with their civil servants, but have a tough time believe they would be for the most part, helpful, courteous, respectful, and sincerely wishing to giving accurate and honest advice. I'm sure they are out there, but I've never had a bad experience when dealing with people in authority, metal detecting, or anything else. Even getting popped for a speeding ticket, always professional, never pulled out of my car, beating senseless, cavity search, and all those other horrible things.

Fantasy has it's place, just wish it wasn't here...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... Fantasy has it's place, just wish it wasn't here...

Proud to be the CA guy you refer to Harvey. And I luv ya like a bro!!

And I wish it wasn't fantasy. I could give you point-blank examples of md'rs who did in fact get "no's", at places where it had never been an issue before their "pressing question". To show that sometimes the psychology does in fact manifest itself. But I know it would fall on deaf ears.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Chuck, something back on page 1 that never occurred to me at first glance. But now jumps out at me. In post #12, you give your permission/clarification letter's text. Ie.: the text of the message you sent to the authorities:

On the one hand, you preface with the following:

"As you no doubt know metal detecting is legal in public parks in Massachusetts as long as there are no local ordinances against it..... "

Then you follow that with:

"I looked at your Parks & Recreation website but I didn’t see anything there about it.... " [ie.: silent on the subject, eh?]

So it seems to me that your evolution of thought was spot-on up till that time. That lack-of-prohibition = LACK OF PROHIBITION. Yet despite this, you *still* feel the need to have an express "yes you may". Lest ....... you "haven't double checked enough" ?

Yes an express "yes" is awesome. NO DOUBT. But the devil is in the details. In seeking that "express yes" red-carpets, you can bump into arbitrary safe-answer "no's". So just saying, be careful.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Post-script: Yes I realize the above post doesn't take into account that someone might figure we fall under "deface" or "dig", etc.... verbage. But just going by YOUR OWN POST, you yourself make the implicit distinction of specific versus catch-all grey.

 

[PlasteredDragon]

Hey Chuck, something back on page 1 that never occurred to me at first glance. But now jumps out at me. In post #12, you give your permission/clarification letter's text. Ie.: the text of the message you sent to the authorities:

On the one hand, you preface with the following:

"As you no doubt know metal detecting is legal in public parks in Massachusetts as long as there are no local ordinances against it..... "

Then you follow that with:

"I looked at your Parks & Recreation website but I didn’t see anything there about it.... " [ie.: silent on the subject, eh?]

So it seems to me that your evolution of thought was spot-on up till that time. That lack-of-prohibition = LACK OF PROHIBITION. Yet despite this, you *still* feel the need to have an express "yes you may". Lest ....... you "haven't double checked enough" ?

Yes an express "yes" is awesome. NO DOUBT. But the devil is in the details. In seeking that "express yes" red-carpets, you can bump into arbitrary safe-answer "no's". So just saying, be careful.

I get it, Tom, everybody gets it. "If you ask, you risk getting a no."

Here's my perspective. We're all in this together, both the guy swinging the detector and the guy minding the parks. If the regs don't say anything about moving dirt or plants or "no detecting" I don't worry about it. The more specific they are the more responsible it is of me to doublecheck.

If I get a "no", I'll either open further dialogue, ask higher up, or move on to the next place. A "no" is not the end of the world.

All the best, Tom.

 

[mountain digger]

Getting told know, for anything we want in life, is a real buzz kill.

When anyone tells me 'KNOW' ... I tell them I already KNOW, because I looked up the written law.

Now if they tell me NO, you can't do something legal, and I KNOW the law and I KNOW it is legal, I ask to speak to their supervisor.

Some posts just don't make sense...ya know.

BTW, if there is no specific ordinance against MDing, then you're not talking about MDing being against the law, you are talking about digging. If it says don't dig ... then don't dig. BTW, if the law says don't dig ... permission granted to dig by anyone doesn't make it legal UNLESS it says permission must be obtained to dig, then by all means ... obtain permission to dig.

 

[mountain digger]

The funny thing is that there is basically on member, who is the major fear monger here, and pretty much anywhere else on the internet, that allows members to post, that is in any way related to metal detecting. I wouldn't get involved in a hobby, or any activity, which requires being sneaky, hiding what I'm doing from the general public, evading those in authority. Looking over my shoulder, just isn't what I consider fun. Maybe some people enjoy a little fantasy/role-playing, to add a little thrill and excitement to their lives. Just digging up something of value, or interesting, is all the fun I need from this hobby. I've never been to California or Colorado, so no experience with their civil servants, but have a tough time believe they would be for the most part, helpful, courteous, respectful, and sincerely wishing to giving accurate and honest advice. I'm sure they are out there, but I've never had a bad experience when dealing with people in authority, metal detecting, or anything else. Even getting popped for a speeding ticket, always professional, never pulled out of my car, beating senseless, cavity search, and all those other horrible things.

Fantasy has it's place, just wish it wasn't here...

Have you ever been anywhere? ... or is this just innuendo directed toward two specific members? Just raising a simple question here...ya know.