Skippy, the L&F laws only apply to items worth $100 or more in CA. Other states have variations of $100 to $200-ish as the threshold.
Hence, no need to turn in flip flops, loose change, suntan lotion bottles, etc..
And get this: The law does not specify the method of valuation. So for example: If you find a gold band, perhaps it has only $90 value if sold to a pawn shop. Perhaps it has $150 value if sold to ARA. Perhaps it costs the poor sucker who lost it $500 in the store-when-new. Ok, how does one arrive at a value ? Is it "intrisnic" (melt) value ? Or "value-when-new". I think you'd have a hard time saying "intrinsic melt value", because then someone can keep brand new Apple Ipod phones they "found", by saying that the "melt" value was just 5 cents (a little copper, silicone, plastic, etc....)
I ran this question by the lawyer I discussed the law with. He said that what we should be doing is to turn the items in to the police, and let THEM decide how they are to be valued. Hmmm.
Ok, how about old coins? Is a 1916D merc. dime worth 10c ? Or is it worth $500 ? I knew a man who lost his entire collection of rare USA coins when his numbskull 3rd grade son took them to school for show & tell. Then passed out his dad's coins to fellow class-mates to "make friends". The other kids promptly went out and lost them in the school tot-lot (thinking they were just play money). Ok, so if you were the lucky guy who finds bust halves, silver dollars, etc.... in the sandbox, is it "finders keepers" ? Or do you have an obligation to return them to the man who lost them ?
Do you see the million shades of grey here ? Technically whenever you see someone on CL posting "found mountain bike" or "found diamond ring", etc...: They are in violation of the law. Because the law makes no allowance for your own repatriation attempts. But yes: The cops have bigger fish to fry, and are simply not enforcing it.
I totally see the shades of grey here, I completely do.
Check this grey area out. Here are the conditions (and this is as much for the "fun" of the conversation as anything, since both of us are quite comfortable in the actions we take. This is more academic than anything).
1)
Abandoned Property can be possessed and owned by the first person who exercises dominion over it with an intent to claim it as his or her own.
2) Property owners or "agents" of a property have right to first claim for items
lost on the property, second only to the rights of the original owner.
3) If the property owner relinquishes the rights of claim, for a lost item, the finder then has claim over the property over everyone else OTHER than the original owner (unless it is "abandoned" at which time it is considered theirs).
4) A property manager that posts "Not responsible for Lost Items" has posted a relinquish of the the right of claim for lost items, moving the right of claim to the person who has found the object (they have claim over everyone other than the original claimant.)
This is where it gets grey FAST. Does US Common law (which has ample court precedent) take a back seat to a State's Lost and Found laws (which also have precedent).
That brings us to some fun conversation. Let's go with the fact this is only a judicial argument (because there's no "right" under the conflicting laws, just grey areas that actually require a judicial system to rule on the application of law).
Here's my fun points.
1) The state could only bring lost charges against a person if the object has a claimant. There MUST be someone who says, "that was mine, because it was originally mine," or "that was mine, because it was on my property, and I have a stronger claim."
2) Without a claimant, there's no evidence the object was anything other than abandoned.
3) In the case of "lost and found" laws, the court would have to show the item was lost, not abandoned (and that would take a claimant), or show the person didn't have a right to the claim.
Which means
4) The state would have to have a description of the item in question, and proof it is in the possession of the person who supposedly "found" it. A picture of an object is not possession of an object, even it it includes a wonderful video of it popping out of the ground. Trust me on this. I've lost rings on the way back to the truck. *GRRRRR*
And to the points above:
5) According to the rule of law, in the USA, a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
Here's the argument then:
In the case of legally MDing a public park where MDing is allowed, and the city has posted specifically, that they have no right of claim to lost items, then unless there is a claimant to the object, the object is immediately in a GREY zone.
If the object doesn't get turned in, the city cannot prove there is a claimant. If the city doesn't want the object turned in, that makes it #$*& hard for the claimants to get their property back.
If I keep a object, based on the fact I believe it was abandoned, and that object doesn't have a claimant, stronger than me, it's the STATE'S responsibility to prove I'm guilty of something. Until then, I'm innocent under the law. Could there be a claimant? Maybe. I doubt it.
And now... now we get to the argument about Craigslist... I love this part.
According to you, anyone who posts something on Craigslist is automatically suggesting the object is lost, not abandoned. I humbly submit that anyone posting a FOUND article is simply checking to
make sure the object was abandoned. They don't consider it lost, they're just double checking. *cracks up*
Under those conditions, most of us already protect ourselves inadvertently on Craigslist by doing the following:
We ask someone to describe their article that is lost. If someone says, did you lose something? Let me know what it looks like, or even like I did "I found a diamond ring, please identify if you think it's yours." I'm simply double-checking it's been abandoned. After 45 days of double-checking, I sell the sucker.
If I've never described it, what in the world could the courts possibly charge me with? Be pretty dang tough to prove L&F laws.
Even in the case of saying "a diamond ring." I've got several diamond rings in my possession that I purchased for MUCH less than $100. Saying "diamond ring" doesn't mean squat.
Now... COULD someone be prosecuted for this? Sure. COULD they be found guilty of breaking lost and found laws? Sure. Would the state have a decent argument by grabbing a handful of posts from metaldetectingforum.com I don't have a CLUE. But that's what the courts would have to determine.
I've found a bucketload of abandoned property, my friend. Yes, I have.
BTW, I'm sure a Doctor of Jurisprudence could pick apart my above argument like crazy. Why not, though, it's all in good fun. I've never actually found anything of value.
lol
