Dupont (Washington) bans metal detecting in public parks

[jimther]

The link below is from a Google Alert I have set up for "treasure" + "found"

The main guy speaking in the video at the beginning of the story is Gordon Karg, City Attorney.

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article287992785.html

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Jimther, thanx for the link. I love it. I absolutely love it. This link has ALL THE HALLMARKS of exactly what I've been harping on for years. So if anyone doubts my rant, read it straight from the source. Although the article goes on and on and on about "holes", yet .... was that really ever the issue or cause or anyone's concern ? NO ! Un-pack and read s-l-o-w-l-y. To see the evolution and real reasons going on, right before our very eyes :

It is archie issues (not holes) that brought this up, as a "pressing issue that needed to be addressed". Here it is folks (and I quote) :

"...the recommendation came from the DuPont Historical Society,..."

Ok, so now maybe we're not going to mutter under our breath "durned those people that must have left holes". Right ? Instead we're going to mutter under our breath : "Durned those archies". RIGHT ? But now let's ask ourselves : What brought it on to those archie's desks, as a "pressing issue" that needed to be addressed ? And Here it is folks (and I quote) :

"....The DuPont Historical Society gets phone calls “quite often” from people with metal detectors wanting to know where they can look to find historical objects, said Carol Estep, who serves as treasurer of the DuPont Historical Society and was its president for 10 years...."

There ^ ^ do you see it ? There it is : They "get phone calls quite often". Oh gee. Oh wow. Oh my. Shucks, well let's let the wheels of their archie brains start turning. What are the implications ? So they say: Gee, we better run to city council and suggest a rule, to "address this pressing issue".

Do you see now ? The cause is not holes. The cause is not archies. IT'S WE MD'R's OURSELVES ! Being our own worst enemy, running around swatting hornets nests !


And People : Be aware that a lot of museums and historical societies are staffed (or have a board member or two in their ranks) that can be purist-archie type minded. So if you're going to snoop around at museums and historical societies for tips on where to detect, fine. BUT HAVE A LITTLE MORE FRICKIN COMMON SENSE to be.... uh .... discreet about it

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And I would add the following : Notice the wonderful article alludes to various other surrounding areas' parks that (and I quote) "allow" metal detecting . As if an express allowance were needed, and that silence on the subject isn't good enough to mean : Not prohibited. Eh ?

So guess what skittish newbies will do, after reading articles like that (when they get posted here, for newbies to click on and read). They read links like this, and think they need express allowances. Or that "they might be in sort of trouble". Or "everyone hates us and the sky is falling". Or "shucks I guess I better find out if where I'm at is *allowed* or not".

So guess what they'll do "just to make sure" ? YUP ! YOU GUESSED IT ! ; Start knocking on the doors of desk bound bureaucrats. Kiosk windows. Sending emails. Making calls. Asking "Can I ?" and "Is it allowed ?" And then presto : Others too will "need to address this pressing issue". And presto, it conjures up images of holes and/or something old, blah blah. AND PRESTO : Another law or rule is born.

Is anyone seeing the vicious self-fulfilling circle yet ? Laws and rules invented where, quite frankly, NO ONE EVER GAVE IT A MOMENT'S THOUGHT before we went in swatting hornets nests, raising red flags, groveling thinking we need express say-so, etc...

I certainly *get* the purpose of posting links like this. I mean, sure, it has to do with our hobby. But just saying that instead of it causing newbies to run to swat hornets nests, let it be a lesson to NOT swat hornets nests, and to be a little more discreet.

We can not escape the fact that, yes, our hobby has .... uh ....connotations. That you might be about to leave a hole. Or that you might find something old and cool. So if you're going to research for old sites in museums and historical societies, do so with a little bit of common sense. You don't start blabbing about md'ing (and silly stuff like saying you'll "donate to their collection cabinets", blah blah).


Be very careful that you're not talking to a purist archie type. I never mention md'ing, when snooping through museums and societies (and I volunteer docent at several of them for this very purpose !!) .

And if you're concerned about "allowed" or "silent on the subject" or "disallowed", etc.... You do NOT start asking "Can I ?". Instead you LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF if you are skittish. In this wonderful digital day & age, there's not a single city or county etc... that doesn't have their muni code, park rules, etc... on-line. Eg.: Dogs on leash, no fireworks, closes at sunset, etc..... If it doesn't say "no md'ing", THEN PRESTO : Not disallowed. You do NOT need express allowance. No more so than you need allowance to fly frisbees.

Just use common sense, and don't be in the middle holes, in nice manicured turf, when busy bodies are watching. Avoid obvious historic sensitive monuments. Sure.

 

[hoser]

Well said Tom. The archie's are definitely a breed all their own. Case in point, two years ago I attended a snowshoe building class at our local state park. Two people were the teachers of the class. Both, very friendly until there was a group conversation about our hobbies. The minute I mentioned I did a lot of metal detecting, the historian clammed up and was kind of cold to me from that point on. Part of me figured that may happen. The other guy was interested and asked questions. The historian has since moved on to greener pastures.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....... The minute I mentioned I did a lot of metal detecting, the historian clammed up and was kind of cold to me from that point on. ......

Yup. I snoop around at museums I come to when I travel. To research & find places to detect, sure. And I docent at a few here locally where I live. But : I never mention md'ing. Because yes : There's the chance that some persons in-those-ranks might be purist-archie mindset.

 

[mudwhale]

Is it me or am I the only one getting sick of being governed to death? These "Hysterical Societies" are typically a bunch of do nothing mamby pamby tea totalling socialites that gather maybe once per year to do a head count to see how many have not yet departed this earth while having tea and tarts during their discussion about the dust collecting on the seats of their chairs since their last meeting to discuss the the issue of dust collecting on their chairs which was supposed to be a meeting to discuss the cobweb situation on all of the three display cases they have next to their dusty chairs.

Are these people actually out looking for historical anything? NO, they are not and never have! But, they can't stand the thought of anyone finding something that they can't have and never would have known it existed on their own because they don't actually DO anything except sit on dusty chairs surrounded by cobwebs. Their mindset is, " If it isn't in our collection because we didn't find it, we need to put a stop to people actually finding things that are better than the items in our collection because we don't already have them because we are not looking for them in the first place because if we get up off these chairs they will accumulate more dust and we will have to schedule another meeting for next year".

I think Legislation should be passed called the "No Detectorist Left Behind Act". This would force these do nothing societies with the word "Historical" in them to go out and swing metal detectors, preferably really cheap ones, and try to find something historical while at the same time removing all the bottle caps and pull tabs from the parks so we can walk behind them and find the good stuff. When we have our monthly Detectorist Finds Meetings we can point these Society types to places where we believe there would be "Historical Significance" and steer them to already well known farmer trash dumps loaded with square nails, steel cans, barbed wire and sheet metal. This would keep them busy for the remainder of their days with their cheap detectors going in endless circles with never ending beeps coming from the ground while the Standby E.M.T.'s perform constant monitoring of their heart rates and glucose and oxygen levels.

The reality is that this will never happen because they all have Handicapped Parking tags, some can't physically get up from the dusty chairs without assistance and the ones in mobility carts would not be able to use their detectors for obvious reasons, mostly EMI related.

To make sure this kind of thing never happens where you live, make sure that the Mayor/Selectman, who is the person that appoints the other city officials, is "Pro" metal detecting!

 

[VirginiaBikeGirl]

I got kicked out of my favorite park for this very reason yesterday. Large park on what used to be a farm. I have found one old crummy gilded button in it. But I found tons of rings, coins, dog tags, and even a gold bracelet there. Guy said it was for historical reasons. There was no large settlement or battle or encampment there, so what historical reasons?

What gets me is that except for gold and to a slightly lesser extent silver, stuff just rots in the ground. It’s not like they are saving those coppers for the Archie’s. They are not out there looking for them. I’ve seen them cordon off a small area and scrape away layer by layer. But they just leave hundreds of acres untouched.

I wonder if we need to come up with a system like in the UK. Map all your finds. Set up a list and define historical items. Turn in items on the list for evaluation. Be compensated for stuff the museums decide to keep. If YOU were going to write laws, what would they be?

By the way, my name is Connie.

 

[bottlecap4u]

Interesting video, thanks for sharing this. As (if) MD'ing continues to become more popular in public spaces, local governmental responses in terms of legislating it will occur and always on the restrictive side initially. Though flying under the radar when detecting these spaces makes sense, as I'm reading ehre, I fear this won't be enough as times move ahead. It was disappointing I heard no public commenting pushing back and the ordinance's central argument recommended by the local HS, (not surprising as I'm sure the local MDs ducked for cover), in issuing a broad, over-reaching MD ban in public spaces to protect relics (secondarily as mentioned in preserving turf and plants (which is laughable). That said, if the crux of the HS' argument (at least voiced in the reading) and seconded by Councilwoman Elliott's odd support in seeing a couple of MDs out in backpacks and shovels appear "odd" to her and we must do something about keeping these odd men away (my words there but there you have it! what we've all seen when we are out and about). Anyway, to counter the historical significance issue....then the pushback must be to these HS, who push this stuff is first, demonstrate why the space has historical significance, have a hearing on that, then if demonstrated, let the council decide on designating the space as a historical site rather than issue broad MD bans, period. I know some folks won't like that approach but that's the argument they're pushing so you have to push back on that. This is a prime example of a kneejerk reaction and killing an ant with a sledgehammer. They need to slow-their-roll and unfortunately nobody was there to debate the issue.

 

[kweis]

Just to add, word has come that Baltimore City may no longer be issuing metal detecting permits for any of their parks. Some of the parks were already off limits anyways due to the local Archie claws infiltrating city government. But now it appears to have been extended to all of them. This screams all of the above. Some club folks have tried to contact city government on the why's and where's of this. Crickets.

 

[bottlecap4u]

What our state has in place for state parks, https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/places/state-parks/metal-detecting
rather than ban MDing for the entire park, they've designated areas with parks. My experience in these parks is public beaches and spaces areas are open, when you get off into the "wilds" so to speak, no. I've strayed into the wilds a bit, not been challenged yet. No one likes restriction, but at least in our state they didn't ban MDing in state parks but opting for a more reasonable approach some 20 years ago.

 

[KOB]

Guess that's another reason why I've never been into dirt hunting. Prefer finding more recent drops of gold and coins within the last 100 yrs or so. The beach fills holes automatically in sand. I belong to a FB group dedicated to buying/selling MDing finds. Alot of the stuff being offered are old buckles , buttons , bullets , pins , etc. Very little of it has value. Oh boy ! Look what old , historical finds I'm offering up for sale ! And it's all worthless junk they (allegedly) dug up. Not for me....

As for poking the hornets nest : Metal Detecting Lives Matter !

 

[LovestheShiny!]

The purist archeologist would rather see items rot in the ground for a thousand years rather than have us "amateurs" recover them.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Is it me or am I the only one getting sick of being governed to death? .....

You say : "..... Is it me or am I the only one getting sick of being governed to death? ...."


But ask yourself : Why ARE you being "governed to death" ? It is not the government WANTING to "govern you". IT WAS/IS WE OURSELVES BEGGING TO BE GOVERNED ! Don't you get it ? So don't wag your finger at the bureaucrats who consider implementing new rules. WAG YOUR FINGER AT US MD'RS WHO MAKE OURSELVES A GIANT BULLSEYE. Swatting hornets nests essentially saying : "Yoohooo, please come invent a law to address my pressing issue". So as you see, it's not the G-men's fault. IT'S OUR FAULTS !


You say : ".... These "Hysterical Societies" are typically a bunch of do nothing mamby pamby ......"


I disagree with you here ^ ^ Most museums and historical societies and archies do good. And they can be good places for us md'rs to gather clues on locations. So long as you stay under the radar for your *true intentions*. Because as said : Some of them have purist-archie types on their boards of directors, or the curator, etc....


You say : "....Are these people actually out looking for historical anything? NO, they are not and never have! ...."


Welcome to the disconnect between the private sector digger/collectors (us) and the purist archie mindset : This is nothing new to the friction that exists. Ok, fine , then : The less they think of you and me : THE BETTER ! So now that you couch their "leave it in the ground" attitude, then don't you see that it is NOT wise for us md'rs to show up at their doorsteps (as in Jimthers' link) asking : "Hi, where's cool historic places to dig ?" THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT ! You and I need to be a little more frickin discreet ! Because sure : This purist archie mindset might exist in whatever-museum you just waltzed into.


You say : "....I think Legislation should be passed ...."


NO ! Don't you get it ?? THIS IS JUST THE POINT !! You and I SHOULD NOT BE "seeking legislation" to get "red carpets rolled out for us". THAT'S WHAT'S CAUSING THIS CR*P IN THE FIRST PLACE !! So It's EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what you are saying : The best way is the : LESS they think of us, the better. Not the "more" they think of us. You do NOT need or want legislation giving "express allowances". If it's silent on the subject, then .... just stay under the radar, go at lower traffic times, and avoid such kill-joy karens. IT'S NOT OUR JOB to please every last person on earth !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I got kicked out of my favorite park for this very reason yesterday. Large park on what used to be a farm. I have found one old crummy gilded button in it. But I found tons of rings, coins, dog tags, and even a gold bracelet there. Guy said it was for historical reasons. There was no large settlement or battle or encampment there, so what historical reasons?

What gets me is that except for gold and to a slightly lesser extent silver, stuff just rots in the ground. It’s not like they are saving those coppers for the Archie’s. They are not out there looking for them. I’ve seen them cordon off a small area and scrape away layer by layer. But they just leave hundreds of acres untouched.

I wonder if we need to come up with a system like in the UK. Map all your finds. Set up a list and define historical items. Turn in items on the list for evaluation. Be compensated for stuff the museums decide to keep. If YOU were going to write laws, what would they be?

By the way, my name is Connie.

Connie, is there an actual law or rule @ that town's park's code, that actually said specifically : "No md'ing " ? Because simply because someone comes up to you and says "scram", does not necessarily constitute a "law" or a "rule" from then on out. I'm not saying to debate them (I mean, sure, give lip service). But it does not necessarily mean the place is off-limits. As long as there's not an actual real law or rule (look it up yourself, don't ask anyone "Can I ?"), then it usually only means : Avoid that one person in the future. They could have just been a fluke. Here's a thread about that : https://metaldetectingforum.com/ind...boot-constitutes-law-from-then-on-out.278842/


And no, the UK system would never work here. Their land law system is built different from the ground up. Because over there, whatever wealth/resources under the ground "belong the crown". So for example, if you discover oil on your land, you're not rich like the Beverly Hillbillies.


And trust me, over there in the UK they also have scores of off limits parks and monuments and such (why do you think that 99% of their md'ing is done on private property farm land ??). And once you're on private property farmland here, then presto : You and farmer bob can do WHATEVER YOU WANT with the goodies here already. With zero interference from govt. So the UK laws have no bearing on ability to hunt public land. If any such thing were ever suggested here, is the MOMENT it would go from bad to worse here. It would only be swatting more hornet's nests (drawing attention to our pressing issue) EVEN MORE . And that is EXACTLY why links such as Jimthers exist. IS BECAUSE we run around drawing attention to ourselves.

 

[Cherry Picker]

Jimther, thanx for the link. I love it. I absolutely love it. This link has ALL THE HALLMARKS of exactly what I've been harping on for years. So if anyone doubts my rant, read it straight from the source. Although the article goes on and on and on about "holes", yet .... was that really ever the issue or cause or anyone's concern ? NO ! Un-pack and read s-l-o-w-l-y. To see the evolution and real reasons going on, right before our very eyes :

It is archie issues (not holes) that brought this up, as a "pressing issue that needed to be addressed". Here it is folks (and I quote) :

"...the recommendation came from the DuPont Historical Society,..."

Ok, so now maybe we're not going to mutter under our breath "durned those people that must have left holes". Right ? Instead we're going to mutter under our breath : "Durned those archies". RIGHT ? But now let's ask ourselves : What brought it on to those archie's desks, as a "pressing issue" that needed to be addressed ? And Here it is folks (and I quote) :

"....The DuPont Historical Society gets phone calls “quite often” from people with metal detectors wanting to know where they can look to find historical objects, said Carol Estep, who serves as treasurer of the DuPont Historical Society and was its president for 10 years...."

There ^ ^ do you see it ? There it is : They "get phone calls quite often". Oh gee. Oh wow. Oh my. Shucks, well let's let the wheels of their archie brains start turning. What are the implications ? So they say: Gee, we better run to city council and suggest a rule, to "address this pressing issue".

Do you see now ? The cause is not holes. The cause is not archies. IT'S WE MD'R's OURSELVES ! Being our own worst enemy, running around swatting hornets nests !


And People : Be aware that a lot of museums and historical societies are staffed (or have a board member or two in their ranks) that can be purist-archie type minded. So if you're going to snoop around at museums and historical societies for tips on where to detect, fine. BUT HAVE A LITTLE MORE FRICKIN COMMON SENSE to be.... uh .... discreet about it

To be honest, I didn't think there were really that stupid of people metal detecting. They would actually call the Historical Society to ask where to hunt? WTH?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....... demonstrate why the space has historical significance, have a hearing on that, then if demonstrated, let the council decide on designating the space as a historical site rather than issue broad MD bans, period. .........

The much better tactic is that : KEEP IT OFF THEIR RADAR AS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS ADDRESSING IN THE FIRST PLACE !!

I mean, take Jimthers link for example : Notice that it was not any archie out there, who just *happen chanced* to walk by an md'r in the park one day. And thought : "Oh me oh my, let's make a rule". NNNEEEOOOoooo. It was md'rs swatting hornet's nests in front of purist archies. It's right there in his link. The smoking gun.

And the moment you and I md'rs think that the solution is to have a p*ssing match and "clarify this pressing issue" as to what is a historical site vs not-historical site, is the moment that we will only be swatting MORE hornet's nests. Any such "solidarity fights" on our behalf, are only going to be us bringing EVEN MORE attention on ourselves.

I don't disagree that , if it was true that a law is already on-the-books (no doubt d/t prior md'rs swatting hornets nests), that it might *SEEM* like the best response is to run around extending olive branches, and entering p*ssing matches about what is historic vs not-historic, etc.... But IMHO, this only puts us MORE front and center, to an issue where, quite frankly, it might become buried boiler plate that no one ever pays attention to. And you have to remember that it's a dangerous thing to start to seek "express allowances" along the lines of "historic vs not historic", because some purist archie types actually consider the cut-off age to be 50 yrs. for pete sakes !! So it will invariably always be a loosing battle. Thus the best place for us to wag our fingers at, and battle, and form solidarity, is not the "damage control afterwards" , but to address what is causing all this IN THE FIRST PLACE !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Just to add, word has come that Baltimore City may no longer be issuing metal detecting permits for any of their parks. ......

Aaaahhhh, another of the bees in my bonnets : Cities that ever dreamed up "permits". SOUNDS WONDERFUL, eh ? I mean, shucks, who doesn't love the notion of "permits for md'ing". Conjurs up the ability to waltz around nilly-willy, blah blah. Removes worries for skittish types, etc... SO WHO COULDN'T LOVE PERMITS , eh ?


But the devil is always in the details. Because for any city that ever dreamed up a "permit" for this, then guess what that means ? THAT MEANS THAT IT'S ALWAYS/EVER on-their-radar as something to adminster . To over see. That they "grant". And sure as sh#t, one year, as the city council is looking over their list of things they have permits for, someone is going to see this "metal detecting" thing on year in the future. And say to themselves : "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out there digging in the park ?" And promptly yank the system in the future.


So as you can see, it would have been MUCH BETTER if there were never any such "permit", IN THE FIRST PLACE ! Then they're not perpetually thinking about us, passing out "permit", etc.... Why do md'rs think they need a "permit" ? If it's silent on the subject , then presto, it's not disallowed. And if someone gripes, then : Go at lower traffic times and avoid said lookie lou in the future.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... , they've designated areas with parks....

And I have a sneaking suspicion why any others were banned IN THE FIRST PLACE. Care to take a guess ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Guess that's another reason why I've never been into dirt hunting......

Kob, You hunt state beaches down there in southern CA, right ? Perhaps a smattering of city or county beaches too there, eh ? Ok, I bet if you tell me the names of the various beache you hunt, and give me a week, I bet that I can single handedly get all your beaches shut down to md'ing.


All I need to do is keep calling the powers-that-be, who oversee your particular beaches, and ask the "right questions". I will be sure to pepper the question with ample usage words like "dig" and "take" and "holes" and "cultural heritage" and "remove" and "treasure" and "Indian bones".


And I'll bet that I can eventually find someone to tell me "no". Then I gather a bunch of md'rs, to join me in solidarity, to fight the "no" I just received. So that it will have to go before their legislative judicial review for "clarification", blah blah . I'll suggest permits, express allowances, etc... (won't that be wonderful ?) And presto, we can get a link , just like Jimthers' link, for the beaches you hunt.


But hey, you and I can't be too safe, can we ? So how can you blame me for asking ? I mean, shucks, you don't want to be breaking any laws, now do you Kob ?? The fact that you've been getting away with it for so long, only means you didn't ask the right people the right questions. Shame on you, eh ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The purist archeologist would rather see items rot in the ground for a thousand years rather than have us "amateurs" recover them.

Which is exactly why : The LESS they think of us, the better. Not the MORE they think of us.

When you think of it, the actual ratio of "purist archie" to the general population must be hundreds of thousands to one. Right ? So what are the odds of you and I running into a purist archie while on the beach, or park, or forest, or school yard. PRACTICALLY ZERO , right ? The odds of a purist archie "happen chance passing you by", are nill (assuming you're not snooping around obvious historic sensitive monuments). OK, fine. And best left-that-way.