ATDigger
Senior Member
That's a very good point HF. They love to slip these things in and then say "Well it's the law you know". No, actually - I don't "know".
(Don't know if any of you had seen this) Looks like we're done in Erie County!
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That's a very good point HF. They love to slip these things in and then say "Well it's the law you know". No, actually - I don't "know".
ATDigger
Senior Member
You're right. And I believe it's a typical a knee-jerk reaction to something they don't understand. They'd rather ban it outright than bother to try and understand it.
As an example - NYS Parks leaves it to the discretion of the Park Manager whether or not to allow MD'ing in their park. I approached the manager at one of the local parks here that has a historical fort on it's grounds. The park is enormous with the fort and designated historic area only occupying one small part. I told the manager I was not interested in the fort, the historical grounds or even the picnic and sports fields. I just wanted to work the small little man-made beach down on the lake. He told me he wasn't sure and needed to consult with the park archaeologist. Of course my "Oh Sh*t!!" flag immediately goes up. Sure enough, he calls me a couple of hours later to tell me the archaeologist says the entire park, and even the water, is off-limits as it's all a potential historic site. "Potential" being the key word here. In other words, they don't know, aren't sure and can't be bothered to check, so best to ban it all together. Friggin' archaeologists...
Could be that no one was asking about the specifics concerning digging or removing items? When asked to leave, they just pick a different time and day of the week to return, hopefully when nobody was around. Nobody there, nobody cares, and there wasn't the words 'metal detecting' to be found in the rules, no signs clearly stating. Sure, it's public land, but the public also hired some one to oversee those sites, maintain them, keep them clean and safe, enforce the rules as needed. The rules concerning digging, removing items already existed, and apparently being ignored by a specific group, who found some really nice, old stuff, shared with their fellow hobbyists, who also want some of that good stuff too. If there is good stuff being found, there must be more... So, there was some grey area, and the person in charge could have allowed hunting, if it was done with care, a little respect, but these guys never ask, and are careful never to be seen, so no discussion was possible. The man has got a job to do, he's responsible for that particular site, deserves a little respect, I'm sure there are other problems he has to deal with.
Sure, a big part of research, is looking things up, a lot of reading, but when you get into those grey areas, not clearly defined, you need to consult an expert or authority on the subject, to gain clarity. That authority, would be the person most directly responsible for the site you wish to hunt.
Laws are frequently model or copied from other areas, even other countries, it's no secret, nothing new or unique, just a very common way of doing business. Takes a lot of research, trial & error, to create something from scratch, we all adapt work already done, to fit our specific needs. We make use of things already known, build or improve, it's how we keep moving forward. If we want to keep our rights, we need to communicate, show we have an interest, respect the wishes of others. Keeping silent, implies we just don't care about the rules, will do whatever we want, regardless. The rules get stricter, more specific, with more compelling consequences, until we do care, and we do find our voices. Sure, we are going to get told 'No', but we can build on every time we get a 'yes', and show we can be responsible, show some respect. Rules can be changed, but you have to work at it, earn it.
Sure, a big part of research, is looking things up, a lot of reading, but when you get into those grey areas, not clearly defined, you need to consult an expert or authority on the subject, to gain clarity. That authority, would be the person most directly responsible for the site you wish to hunt.
Laws are frequently model or copied from other areas, even other countries, it's no secret, nothing new or unique, just a very common way of doing business. Takes a lot of research, trial & error, to create something from scratch, we all adapt work already done, to fit our specific needs. We make use of things already known, build or improve, it's how we keep moving forward. If we want to keep our rights, we need to communicate, show we have an interest, respect the wishes of others. Keeping silent, implies we just don't care about the rules, will do whatever we want, regardless. The rules get stricter, more specific, with more compelling consequences, until we do care, and we do find our voices. Sure, we are going to get told 'No', but we can build on every time we get a 'yes', and show we can be responsible, show some respect. Rules can be changed, but you have to work at it, earn it.
Tom_in_CA
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Ok, if he "wasn't sure", then tell me honestly: PRIOR to your having "brought this pressing issue to his attention" (and therefore him calling a purist archie deskbound 100 miles away), do you think the fellow would ever have given thought to the matter, if he'd just been passing you by ? But now he's appraised, I suppose, so he'll be busy booting others now. See how that works? The "wasn't sure" part (had to go looking for your answer) is "quite telling".
Tom_in_CA
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Harvey, on the one hand, I'm glad you admit that these things that don't specifically say "metal detecting", are indeed "grey areas". They DON'T necessarily mean "no detecting", as you yourself have admitted to now. Right?
Ok then, your conclusion then is that we all need to go ask, "just in case" someone interprets those harvesting, or collecting, or alterations, or heritage things etc... apply. Right? But how then do you deal with someone who gives you an arbitrary "no", ONLY because you asked? In other words, someone who perhaps would never have cared or noticed TILL you asked? Do you still feel that this train of events doesn't happen?
SevenOneSix
Elite Member
Hopefully they dont bring this BS to Niagara County!
SafeMode
Elite Member
Actually he suggests to ask someone who does care or notice, here is what he said:
Asking a security guard, the lawn mower, or the lunch lady who hands out pizza in the nearby cafeteria would be someone who does not care or notice, and would probably give that arbitrary "no" you mentioned, but he seems inclined to ask someone other than them.
Heck, someone who does not care may even give an arbitrary "yes" which can be just as bad if you get confronted by someone who is adamant and has dealt with too many sloppy dectorists.
SafeMode
Elite Member
But a person who is directly responsible for the grounds does care. Which is the person whom in which you consult.
Tom_in_CA
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It can happen in a heart beat . It's smple: Just go in there tomorrow asking permission of enough bored desk bound bureaucrats. Be sure to drop key-buzz-words like "holes", "dig", "treasure", & so forth (lest they not understand the full implications of your question ). Then YOU TOO can find a "no" for your area as well.
It can happen in a heart beat . It's smple: Just go in there tomorrow asking permission of enough bored desk bound bureaucrats. Be sure to drop key-buzz-words like "holes", "dig", "treasure", & so forth (lest they not understand the full implications of your question ). Then YOU TOO can find a "no" for your area as well.
Admit? I've never denied it, and have mentioned many times in all those other threads, you just refuse to comprehend or acknowledge. Grey means, it depends how the person in the position of responsibility is going to interpret and apply the rules, if necessary. That's why that person needs to be included. He's says 'No', you find some place else, or someone higher up the ladder. The rules are there, the person hired to enforce those grey rules, will decide how they are going to be officially interpreted and applied, not you. You can ignore the rules, avoid the conversation, but he's still going to see a few holes, signs that somebody is digging up his responsibility. You force him in to gaining stronger language to the rules, by not talking to him. He's only responsible for the one site, his boss, the guy he goes to to get help dealing with the little problem, oversees all similar sites, and will apply the new rules to all in his area of responsibility. Since you refuse to talk to any of them, they only see on side, and have to figure out the rest themselves. Hunting in secret, sort of implies you have something to hide, doesn't it? Sort of admitting that you know you are doing something wrong, avoiding getting caught? Just have the to accept that you can't legally hunt anywhere you please, respect the people you tax dollars hired to do their jobs, maintaining a place for the public to use. If you want metal detecting on the list of approved activities, you have to ask, and the majority need to prove it can be done responsibly, and respectfully. Your method does nothing to promote this, just slip in there, and get the goodies, without getting caught (often). You ever get asked to leave? How long do you wait, before returning?
They give an arbitrary answer, because they don't understand what's being asked, and it hasn't, or doesn't come up very often. If anything the bulk of what they hear, is complaints. Someone needs to give them the information, to make and educated decision. We aren't the only ones picking up sharp nasty things, the guys picking up trash daily can tell you a few things on the subject. If you want to change rules or policies, you've got to talk to people, write some letters, get the word out that you are interested in the hobby. Silence and secrecy isn't going change anything, or stop us from losing places to hunt. You can creatively interpret the rules, the Code of Ethics, to best suit your personal needs, but it's not going to help anyone, except yourself, and you will continue to lose ground, or least have to be more careful about finding times when there is no one the, so no one can care...
Tom_in_CA
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safe-mode, I'm not following your answer. Of COURSE a grounds-keeper, mayor, park's dept. head-person, you, me, etc... we/they ALL "care" about the park's grounds. Of course they "care" about the park grounds. And sure, the person "directly responsible for the grounds" can regulate any activity he see fit there. For example, if he thinks that you shouldn't fly frisbees or skip stones on the pond (d/t you might harm trees with errant throws), he's certainly welcome to come alert you to this. But did that mean you go ask permission to fly frisbees or skip stones?
It's already a given that someone has authority and "cares" about parks. Granted. And because they "care", they set up rules of use. And those rules of use are accessible to anyone who can read. The trouble with going and asking if you can do something that's not prohibited, is that often-time you can fetch a "no", where no one ever cared about a particular activity, UNTIL you asked.
safe-mode, I'm not following your answer. Of COURSE a grounds-keeper, mayor, park's dept. head-person, you, me, etc... we/they ALL "care" about the park's grounds. Of course they "care" about the park grounds. And sure, the person "directly responsible for the grounds" can regulate any activity he see fit there. For example, if he thinks that you shouldn't fly frisbees or skip stones on the pond (d/t you might harm trees with errant throws), he's certainly welcome to come alert you to this. But did that mean you go ask permission to fly frisbees or skip stones?
It's already a given that someone has authority and "cares" about parks. Granted. And because they "care", they set up rules of use. And those rules of use are accessible to anyone who can read. The trouble with going and asking if you can do something that's not prohibited, is that often-time you can fetch a "no", where no one ever cared about a particular activity, UNTIL you asked.
Tom_in_CA
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If you're referring to the fact of grey areas not necessarily saying/meaning "no detecting", then yes, I'm already acknowledging that we have common ground there, and you're not denying it.
Sure, they can interpret it to mean "no detecting". Granted. But is it our responsibility to go SEEKING OUT that possible interpretation? Because I'm afraid there's been too many places where this ISN'T the actual in-field "interpretation", as attested to by the ability of anyone and everyone to detect a given area. But then lo & behold one day, someone (following your type advice) goes and asks "can I?". His question gets passed back and forth up the chain (till perhaps it goes past a purist archie's desk or whatever), and presto, you get a "no". Ok, what's the logic of that, if no one ever cared before that day?
Sure, if there's truly a rule (or policy) already in place specifically saying "no detecting", then we have no choice but to fight it by solidarity, letter writing, etc... But why oh why oh why would we ever want to ACCELERATE that possibility, by going and making ourselves a giant bullseye in need of various desk-bound bureaucrat's pressing attention, that we need some sort of sanction and blessing from them, to do something that wasn't prohibited, to begin with ? Remember, a lot of times the only reason that "no" got passed down to begin with, WAS BECAUSE YOU ASKED .
Harvey, if you want to call my system "silent and secret", ok, fine then: I'm "silent and secret". Do you think you can change the fact that your hobby has connotations, and that not everyone is going to roll out red carpets for you? I sure wish you and I could waltz around at high noon over beach blankets at archaeologist's convention, but we can't. There's a time for a little frickin' discreetness of timing for just about everything we all do in life. I mean, why swat hornet's nests, if someone may not like something you do? Is it our job to run around and get every last person to love us and our hobby? Sometimes the less attention you/we draw is, better. Not the "more" attention.
No, I'm not "creatively interpretting" the code of ethics in this point. Read it again. I'll quote it here for you (as taken straight from this forums version of the code, as it pertains to this point on laws):
"- Before searching public sites, always check laws, ordinances or regulations that may govern your hunt. "
You will notice that it doesn't say to go ask "can I metal detect?", does it? It just says to check laws, ordinances and regulations. All such things can be done by oneself, by simply looking them up. So please explain how I have mis-intrepetted that.
Seriously? You've detected public golf courses????
SafeMode
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Tom_in_CA
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Then make yourself clear then, in the followup questions I pose to you, which shows your lack of making yourself clear.
SafeMode
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No thank you, I'm ok with you not understanding. Carry on!
Tom_in_CA
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well then, I'm ok with your leaving things in-conclusive.
Always check laws, ordinances, and regulations, which state clearly, No digging, no removing items. Read is part of checking, No means no, unless you talk to someone who can allow it. You ignore the fact, that no digging is already there, a key part of recovering items, a key part of the hobby. You avoid talking to these people, ignore their rules, their only course it to clarify the rules, in case of this thread, banning the activity, since no one cares enough to saying thing. You can carefully avoid the issue, maybe for years, decades, but it will catch up, the rules will change, you get left behind.
