Does this constitute "No Metal Detecting"?

[Bitpusher]

Tom, you seem to be typing a lot of words to say, essentially, "when in doubt as to the laws of a particular place it's better to just go and dig anyway instead of asking permission". Am I understanding you correctly?

If it's property owned by the government, I would agree with that statement 100%.

If there isn't a law against something, it's legal. While verious levels of government certainly have the legal authority to deny access to land, there are procedures for doing so. If it's not illegal, asking permission is unnecessary.

Also, "trespass" doesn't mean "walking on". It means staying there after being asked to leave, either by a law or lawful rule, or by someone acting on behalf of the government.

 

[McClod]

Wow, that reads just like ours does for Clackamas County parks in Oregon!
Especially the part that reads "Dig or remove any soil, rock, sand, stones, trees, shrubs or plants or other wood or materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency."

I called the county parks and was told emphatically NO and they also emailed the regulations with that portion in it too. It sounds like we better not even THINK of kicking rock in THEIR parks!

I hunt all the other parks in the county's cities but not county parks.

 

[The Rebel]

"Dig or remove any soil, rock, sand, stones, trees, shrubs or plants or other wood or materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency."

Well based on the verbiage that most of these places use, they better notify the squirrels, skunks & raccoons to move out.

This is why I love the woods, no one to bother me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

McClod, you say that the rules of your county forbid you to:


"Dig or remove any soil, rock, sand, stones, trees, shrubs or plants or other wood or materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment, blasting or other means or agency."

So you contacted them to see if this refers to md'ing. And they
emphatically told you it applies, and that ... no ... you can't detect.

I suggest to you that you may have simply been the latest victim of: "No one cared ... TILL you asked". I mean, that type verbage appears (in some form or fashion) in EVERY park in the USA, on EVERY level (to forbid vandalism, defacement, and so forth). And sure, if you ask enough bored desk-bound bureaucrats, you risk finding one that says "no, you can't detect". When truth be told, perhaps they never gave the matter a moment's thought, nor would have paid you any mind, till your "pressing question" passed their desk.

Then you say: " I hunt all the other parks in the county's cities but not county parks. "

Here's a challenge for you: check deeply. Research on your own to all muni codes in those cities. I bet you'll find something that forbids vandalism, defacement, alterations, and so forth. Ok, once you found that, go to those cities (the cities in which you don't have a problem and no one bothers you). Go to city hall asking if those things forbid metal detecting. Be sure to use key words like "dig", and "take" and "treasure" and "holes". And I bet you can find people there too to tell you it applies, and ... no... you can't detect. Ok? Now hurry, go do the right thing.

All such verbage inherently applies to the END result. If you leave no trace of your presence, then technically, you have not alterED, defacED, or dUg anything, NOW HAVE YOU ? Might someone disagree with the semantics of that? (the necessary temporary evil process of extraction)? SURE. Avoid such busy-bodies and go at lower traffic times.

 

[WBL TH]

Well here in Stafford County Va it's very clear what they mean.
Its a class 1 misdemeanor.

Stafford county VA
Sec. 17-22.1. Trespass on public property.

(1)
It shall be unlawful for any person, without the authority of the board of supervisors, to hunt, excavate, search out for, attempt to find or sell relics, or to use or be in possession of a metal detector on public grounds or property.

I will never understand how you can trespass on public property.

As for the other posts all I can say is respect the resources and interpretations of the law, but remember that we to pay the taxes that keep these places open to the public and have every right to reasonable use.

Cut clean plugs and clean up the trash you find. Be a good ambassador for our hobby.

Greg

 

[ohiochris]

There is a big difference between " you can get away with it" ( or usually nobody will mind) ,....and " you can legally do it". Officials and law officers can interpret the rules any way they want and even though its rare , they CAN fine you or even confiscate your detector if they really want to. If the rules are vague , you might get away with it all the time , OR you may get away with it 9 times out of 10 , but you shouldnt be shocked if that 10th time you find yourself atleast scolded and asked to leave , or at worst possibly having some action taken against you. But the question was asked if these rules mean no detecting , unfortunately yes they do.

 

[Jason in Enid]

There is a big difference between " you can get away with it" ( or usually nobody will mind) ,....and " you can legally do it". Officials and law officers can interpret the rules any way they want and even though its rare , they CAN fine you or even confiscate your detector if they really want to. If the rules are vague , you might get away with it all the time , OR you may get away with it 9 times out of 10 , but you shouldnt be shocked if that 10th time you find yourself atleast scolded and asked to leave , or at worst possibly having some action taken against you. But the question was asked if these rules mean no detecting , unfortunately yes they do.

You applying an absolute to a vague and not-absolute rule. You can choose to do that if you wish, but shouldn't claim that everyone should.

 

[HarveyH48]

The police can interpret the law one way, place you under arrest, they just need probable cause. The city, district, or state attorney will determine if there is sufficient evidence, or if there was potentially a law broken, and decide if they want to move forward, and charge you with a crime. At trial, you get to present your case, a judge and jury determine if you broke the law, and need to be punished for it.

The courts are pretty busy with more serious crimes, not too likely you are going to trial for digging pulltabs at the park. But, you do get a little black mark on your arrest record, although many lawyers can help you get it removed, least from public view, after a year or so, if the charges are dropped, or you win your case. If you have to avoid the park workers, that pretty much acknowledges you know that it's wrong. Talk to the park workers, if they don't see a problem, you don't have look over your shoulder, or watch the clock, to get out of there before they arrive for work. Not what I consider fun, but some get an adrenaline thrill, getting away with such things.

Can't imagine a city, with absolutely no other alternatives to hunt in public. Sure, some people are a little shy, don't express themselves well, so avoiding the things the fear, like asking permission, rejection, is the only option. Maybe this one park is, the someone most popular with the 'friendly' old guys, who will walk up to most anyone, one hand thrusted deeply in their front pocket, searching for something... I had to stop taking one of my dogs to a park like that, he knew I was a little annoyed, and was shy about expressing it. Usually a friendly, and well behaved dog.

Each site, is individual, some of the folks caring for it, maintaining it, might have a problem, and tell you know. Some might not really care, long as they don't have to clean up a mess. Some could be into the hobby, and interested in what you find. Never know, until you introduce yourself, explain what you plan on doing. Even if there are rules, they still oversee the individual site, and make an exception, unless it's clearly posted on a sign, that metal detectors aren't allowed.

 

[msand]

Just re-read the ordinance. I think the "no excavation by tool" part would probably mean that metal detecting probably isn't allowed.

Have you talked to someone yet?

I agree with others that say they may allow metal detect (fill your holes) and not do damage as the law was intended to prevent other reckless activity. It would be nice to know how you come out.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Have you talked to someone yet?

I agree with others that say they may allow metal detect (fill your holes) and not do damage as the law was intended to prevent other reckless activity. It would be nice to know how you come out.

msand, you yourself acknowledge that the purpose of such verbage was most likely intended to prevent other reckless activity, and NOT meant to lasso in md'rs. Right? And this is easy to deduce, since all such verbage predates the invention of metal detectors. For obvious things like so no one can go cut down trees in the park, do donuts with his 4-wheel drive in the turf, etc.... As for whether it *COULD* pertain to md'ing, you suggest that the OP goes to "talk to someone" ? No, I would disagree. Even you yourself acknowledge this was not the intent of the law, since we leave no trace. But by going and asking, you merely risk a "no", when in fact, perhaps no one would ever have cared.

Because think of it: The MERE FACT that anyone is standing there in front of them asking to do a certain activity (while pointing out damage and defacement clauses no less!) merely presumes that you're somehow a risk, or a danger, or likely to even DO SUCH THINGS, to begin with. Otherwise, if it were innocuous and harmless, why would you be there asking them, to begin with? This subconscious inference is not lost on the person you are asking, and will merely dictate your own answer back to you.

Thus no, if it's not specifically saying "no metal detecting", then presto, there's your answer. And no, I don't consider my actions to be vandalizing, altering, and so forth, as long as I don't leave things that way. Yes someone else can disagree with those semantics. Avoid such busy-bodies, and go at lower traffic times.

 

[msand]

Tom_in_CA, You do a good job of describing this. I think you have said it before and I do agree with you.

1) "Thus no, if it's not specifically saying "no metal detecting""

2) "But by going and asking, you merely risk a "no", when in fact, perhaps no one would ever have cared".

How we come to terms with our self? I say we need to stick together as a club. I like to metal detect on my own. If you go out with the understanding its okay to metal detect and I go ask someone and they say no, what happens to you when the person that said No finds you out there thinking it is me. So, I am wrong in saying "did you ask" I get that.

I am the type of person who wants to be honest. Do the right thing. I am not the best sales person, more of behind the scenes guy. I am getting better at it as I get older. But when the law enforcement officer confronts me even if I know I am right the honest nature in me makes me feel gently and that officer can pick up on that, which works to my disadvantage. I agree with you and if it does not say no metal detecting I will go out and if confronted have paper work to backup me up.

My paper work: Copy of the rules, maps of the land I have permission to hunt.

I am curious how Geardaddy went about this.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... If you go out with the understanding its okay to metal detect and I go ask someone and they say no, what happens to you when the person that said No finds you out there thinking it is me. ...........

Well obviously, if that someone approaches me, he would see that it's not you. So I'm not sure I understand your point here. But let's back-track here for a minute and ask ourselves if that "someone" ONLY approached me, to begin with, because your inquiry was fresh on his mind. Eg.: he sees another md'r out in the park as he's driving by, he remembers the earlier inquiry and thinks: "aha! there's one of THEM". And starts booting others. So you can see in that case, that the only reason he even cares now, or notices, is perhaps because someone brings in this "pressing question", to begin with. So I'm not sure where you're going with your question.

.....I am the type of person who wants to be honest. Do the right thing.....

Sure, me too. And I consider that the "right" and "honest" thing to do, is to look up the laws/rules for oneself. And if it doesn't say "no metal detecting", then presto, it's not prohibited. You can't get more law abiding, more right, and more honest than that, now can you?

 

[msand]

...person that said No finds you out there thinking it is me.... (not a question, I agree with you).

...get more law abiding, more right, and more honest than that, now can you?...
(Absolutely agree with you.)

Your dedication to this topic is appreciated. My bad in my first post to suggest to ask permission. I will say I claim not to suggest what everyone else should do or ask them to do what I do. I will ask permission to hunt private land. I will have a copy of the rules, maps of the land private or city own.

I am still curious how Geardaddy went about this.

 

[msand]

I just read this, here is a good related link:
http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=160222

 

[stewart73]

Sure, me too. And I consider that the "right" and "honest" thing to do, is to look up the laws/rules for oneself. And if it doesn't say "no metal detecting", then presto, it's not prohibited. You can't get more law abiding, more right, and more honest than that, now can you?

So you mean that even if the laws/rules say something like "no disturbing the ground, no removal of artifacts, no digging" you would not consider metal detecting to be included within that, simply because the words "metal detecting" aren't written? If I went to a park and the rules said "no fires, no loud music, no drinking" I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable throwing a wild party simply because the word "party" wasn't written in the rules. Seems obvious to me but perhaps I'm missing something. You must be making some kind of sense though...you've even got people apologizing for suggesting metal detectors ask permission to hunt places where they are unclear about the rules. I thought that was what we were supposed to do.

 

[HarveyH48]

What I get out of all this, if you avoid conversation, sneak around in the shadows, you always get what you want (which seems all important to some). Sometimes when a parent tells their child 'No' at the grocery store, that child will drop down on the ground, kick, scream, and cry. Guess it would be embarrassing for some adults, to get told 'No'. Doing the right thing isn't always easy, and we don't always get what we want. Might have worked well for some children, who simply had to tell the parents, or household staff. We pay taxes, doesn't mean we own a controlling share of everything government owned. Our taxes also pay the salary, for the people who care, and maintain, administer to those public lands. Personally, I'm not so easy to manipulate, and like it or not, I'll continue to do what's right, even if I don't get what I wanted, least I have a clear conscious, and mind, instead looking for bad guys, maintain our schools and parks.

 

[msand]

What I get out of all this... Doing the right thing isn't always easy, and we don't always get what we want... I'll continue to do what's right, even if I don't get what I wanted, least I have a clear conscious, and mind, instead looking for bad guys, maintain our schools and parks.

2+

I am instreated how Geardaddy came out with this.

 

[stewart73]

What I get out of all this, if you avoid conversation, sneak around in the shadows, you always get what you want (which seems all important to some). Sometimes when a parent tells their child 'No' at the grocery store, that child will drop down on the ground, kick, scream, and cry. Guess it would be embarrassing for some adults, to get told 'No'. Doing the right thing isn't always easy, and we don't always get what we want. Might have worked well for some children, who simply had to tell the parents, or household staff. We pay taxes, doesn't mean we own a controlling share of everything government owned. Our taxes also pay the salary, for the people who care, and maintain, administer to those public lands. Personally, I'm not so easy to manipulate, and like it or not, I'll continue to do what's right, even if I don't get what I wanted, least I have a clear conscious, and mind, instead looking for bad guys, maintain our schools and parks.

Sounds about right. I guess it comes down to what your goals are as a detectorist? Is it simply to get into as many places as possible, by whatever means necessary, regardless of the legality of it? If so, then yes, just digging anywhere and never asking permission probably would be the best method. Doesn't sound very relaxing to me though...always watching over your shoulder ready to either play dumb or point out the fact that the words 'metal detecting' aren't written into the bylaws. I would much rather have a few less places to hunt but feel good about hunting them. I still don't get how you can know that the laws say "no removing things from the ground" or "no digging" and not think that would include metal detecting, regardless of whether the laws were originally intended to stop just detecting. I think that if everybody follows the 'never ask permission' advice the laws could eventually become even more strict as more and more people are 'busted' hunting in parks where it is prohibited. Maybe I am still missing something....

In Canada I have had quite good luck asking permission in the parks even when they do have certain laws against digging or removing items. I think I've asked in 5 cities and only 1 city ever said no...and they kindly explained it was because there had been too many cases of idiot detectorists not filling in holes, making a mess, etc. Not everybody takes care of the parks the way most of us on here do so can't really blame them for making a law against it. Parks are used by (and paid for) by all types of people, not just detectorists.

For me, when in doubt, I will continue to ask permission and hunt knowing that the proper process has been completed. I hunt for enjoyment and hunting places where I know it's probably illegal isn't very relaxing (unless the Parks board has given me permission - I always carry a print out of the email with me if anybody asks).

 

[ohiochris]

You applying an absolute to a vague and not-absolute rule. You can choose to do that if you wish, but shouldn't claim that everyone should.

While I dont disagree with you completely , I think the true absolute here is that the interpretation of the rules falls on officials , not us , and THEIR interpretation is decides what is legal and what is not. However you take that , it usually means the law is not on our side if we were to dispute them. The rules were intentionally written vague , since they could not include or anticipate every possible variation or activity. This can mean either no consrquences at all , or anything up to and including being escorted out , fined , or confiscation , depending on the demeanor of the official or law enforcement officer involved....if there were any. So its a gamble but these rules do include no detecting or at the very least no digging.

 

[mountain digger]

Sorry for showing up late with my input .

Just a reminder that if it's legal...then it's not illegal. And if it illegal...then it's not legal. I for one would never feel bad exercising my legal rights and I find it hard to understand why exercising one's legal right would be considered selfish or childish.

If something is illegal, there must be verbiage making it illegal (laws, ordinances, etc). Read it and interpret it as it is written. If you must ... seek clarification if you are unable to comprehend the words and make the legal/illegal determination that you feel is right.

Please note that because something is legal, it may still be inappropriate for many reasons.