Does this constitute "No Metal Detecting"?

[carcur]

I would say that pretty well says "NO METAL DETECTING" or maybe more appropriately it says "You can DETECT METAL, you just can't RECOVER OR REMOVE IT if it's beneath the ground".​

But it sounds like you're thinkin' about it anyway, so Good Luck!


Do not Kill the hobby these are,
Good Rules to Follow When Detecting

- Never trespass. Always get permission to traverse private or restricted lands.
- Always respect private property and do no metal detecting without the owner's permission.
- Before searching public sites, always check laws, ordinances or regulations that may govern your hunt.
- Always leave gates as they are found whether open or closed.
- Never do anything that might contaminate wells, creeks or other water supplies.
- Never tamper with signs, maintenance facilities or equipment.
- Never damage or destroy property, buildings or what is left of ghost towns or deserted structures.
- Never spook, taunt, provoke or otherwise disturb wild or domestic animals.
- Never leave litter. Pack out any and all trash or debris you create or find.
- If necessary, clean up after a previous detectorist. Acting in spite of him or even just ignoring his trangressions will only hurt us all in the end.
- Always use the correct digging or probing equipment to make the least intrusion or marks.
- Never throw trash finds back in the hole.
- Leave as little sign of your passing as possible.
- Always fill in your holes, including plowed fields, sand pits, beaches and in water.
- Study, learn, appreciate and protect our heritage of natural resources, wildlife, and private property.
- Be thoughtful, considerate, courteous and respectful of others at all times.
- Protect the metal detecting hobby by being a good will ambassador at all times.
- Report the discovery of any items of possible significant historical value to a local historian or museum in accordance with the latest legislation of your area.
- Report any live ammunition or other potentially lethal or toxic objects you may find to authorities after carefully noting or marking the location.
- Report any criminal activities you see to proper authorities immediately. You are not a "snitch" or a "tattletale". You are a citizen with both rights, privileges AND duties. Respect them as they were hard-earned by many who came before you.

I did not make up these rules, just trying to save the hobby for newbie's to come.

ezdigger Stan

if where going to split hairs here what about the sod ,grass ,and dirt that sticks to the bottom of peoples cleats when they leave the park
not to mention the divots they leave from cutting or changing direction very fast
where do you draw the line?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

carcur: you rightly point out ambiguities, and infinite cross-overs, definitions, semantics, disparities, etc.... And you therefore ask: " where do you draw the line?"

My "line" is this: I believe metal detecting to innoccous, beneficial, healthful, non-harmful, etc.... Every bit as innoccuous as those hobbies and turf usages you mention (sports, cleats, etc...). Every bit as innocuous as frisbee flying (which could, afterall, poke someone's eye out, right?). Hence I don't ask anyone "can I?", any-more-so than any of those other types of park users think that they need to.

Might someone come up and think differently? SURE! Then go at lower traffic times, and avoid such lookie-lous. Why swat hornet's nests? I mean, seriously, it's as if some md'rs think they can wear neon orange, and waltz over beach blankets at an archie convention, and should be immune from any complaints.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply for George:

George, you say:

"........ so finally sent letter a few years later. They said as long as it is a hobby & not a business, it is OK. ...... [and:] "..... So I called school & spoke to liason officer if we could detect. He said OK, that they were just concerned about what some in the parking lot were doing after dark...." , [and:] "...... Asked park worker if I could use my metal detector there & he said I don't see why not!"

George, do you see the implicit point in those examples? Here's the fact of these statements: a) a sign says "no defacing" or "school use only" and so forth. Right? b) and as we all know, such verbage can and does often get applied to md'ing (the evil temporary act of "digging", even though we leave no trace when we're done). c) However , you found people to say it DOESN'T apply. Ie.: you got a "yes, go ahead".

Do you see the lesson playing out here? Here it is: even though we all read on forums that skittish md'rs are contantly wondering if such things apply to md'ing (causing them to scurry into city halls, or ask parks people everywhere they go), yet your case-example shows, at least in those cases, that someone in authority apparently believes it DOESN'T apply (at least in-so-far as you leave no holes, traces, etc...). RIGHT?

So there's a deeper lesson here: Rather than point to your singular "yes's", as that...... somehow it's "just this park" now that you can hunt at (but that you must continue to ask everywhere else). To me, I see a deeper meaning in this: Namely, that the mere fact that this park or school worker could EVEN HAVE SAID YES TO BEGIN WITH, merely means that such verbage IS INDEED vague. And that it IS INDEED up to the whims of whomever you might ask. Whatever their mental image is. What mood their in. How you phrase it, and so forth. In other words, you merely played Russian Roulette with that question. That's great that you got a "yes", but trust me, I could just as easily go into that same parks dept a month later, ask a different person, and get a "no". All I have to do is be sure to use key-words like "holes", "dig", "treasure", and so forth. So to me then, the fact of having gotten either a "yes" or a "no" isn't conclusive to the issue of whether or not asking is required of us md'rs (in the absence of specific prohibition). And the fact that it's unclear enough that you can get a wide-variety of answers (as is apparent in a ton on "no" answer stories on md'ing forums), is disconcerting.

Also I must point out, that there's no lack of persons who got a "yes" like you did, that becomes meaningless in the field. Here's why: A busy-body tries to boot you. The md'r gleefully pulls the "permission" slip (or drops the name or whatever) of the "yes". He thinks : "this will cause this busy-body to slink away embarassed, for ever having questioned me". Right? But no, here's what happens: the busy-body merely gets on his cell phone, calls to city hall, and says: "but he's tearing the place up!!". Which isn't true, of course, but........ then guess what happens to your "permission"? It's promptly revoked !

Next you say you: "....Heard they don't allow detecting in St. Paul... "

Is there an actual rule that says "no detecting" in St. Paul ? Or is it what you say next:

".......so called desk-bound bureaucrat & it said no digging."

If you ask me, "digging" should not be construed to mean "no detecting". I mean, sure, you can if you want (because let's face it, we do "dig" afterall). To me phrases like "digging" have the implicit implied end result in mind: HOLES. Same for words like deface, alter, destroy, molest, etc... If you leave no trace of your presence, then technically, you have not defacED, alterED, destroyED, etc... Sure, there's the temporary evil process that someone can debate you over semantic on. But if that worries someone, then they might as well give it up now. Because I gaurantee you that EVERY park across the USA (yes, even innocuous sandboxes where you've maybe detected unbothered for years) ALL have similar wording. I mean, let's face it: did you really think you can get permission to "deface" and "alter" the park? (if those are your necessary equivalent definitions of what md'ing is defined as?) No, of course you'll be told no, EVEN in places where no one ever cared, and detecting is just common place.

You say:

"I asked if my screwdriver was considered the same as a shvel. She said it also says no disturbing the soil. She suggested I call the police & I did. I asked if I could be fined for detecting city parks & was told maybe I could be if I left a big hole that could injure someone. So guess they were mostly worried about injury/lawsuit."

Again, this is great that you got such a yes. And I agree with their conclusion that as long as you're not making a mess and leaving holes, that ..... those things DON'T apply to you. And again, the mere fact that you could have even gotten such an answer, is only proof positive of what I'm saying: That those things DON'T necessarily apply to md'ing. Might someone else say they do? SURE! But the fact of two contradictory answers only shows that it IS ambiguous. And the LAST think I want to do, is give room for anyone to tell me it applies, MERELY because it's the "safe answer" to a greasy wheel seeking clarification. Because while it's great to get a "yes", yet it runs the risk of getting a "no", which can lead to actual policies, rules, etc... to "address the pressing issue". Ie.: Russian Roulette. So my tactic is to just go at low traffic times, and avoid any busy-bodies, from the git-go.

Yes I wish it wasn't that way. Yes I wish everyone loved us and our chosen hobby. Yes I wish red carpets were rolled out for me. But alas, it's not that way. Detecting has connotations. So it's sort of like nose-picking: Not necessarily illegal (depending on who you ask), so ...... we all use a little discretion on our timing of that. Right? Rather than thinking we need to go around and get everyone to sign off on this.

You say:

" ........Ask someone besides a desk-bound bureaucrat if you think there is a strong reason to believe detecting is not allowed. Often the police will side with us when someone complains about digging in *their* park. But if they're too nutty & won't shut up, the police could ask the detectorist to leave so the complaint is resolved..... "

Yes, some have suggested that asking the police dept. is much preferred over asking parks or city people. Because logically, the police have MUCH BIGGER fish to fry, and would probably even laugh at the notion of anything being wrong with md'ing. So in that sense, this is wise. However, I have read of bad results of this tactic too. For example, a cop too saying "no you can't" (even though no rule exists that says such a specific thing). Or tells you: "you need to ask the parks dept that question", etc...

 

[carcur]

carcur: you rightly point out ambiguities, and infinite cross-overs, definitions, semantics, disparities, etc.... And you therefore ask: " where do you draw the line?"

My "line" is this: I believe metal detecting to innoccous, beneficial, healthful, non-harmful, etc.... Every bit as innoccuous as those hobbies and turf usages you mention (sports, cleats, etc...). Every bit as innocuous as frisbee flying (which could, afterall, poke someone's eye out, right?). Hence I don't ask anyone "can I?", any-more-so than any of those other types of park users think that they need to.

Might someone come up and think differently? SURE! Then go at lower traffic times, and avoid such lookie-lous. Why swat hornet's nests? I mean, seriously, it's as if some md'rs think they can wear neon orange, and waltz over beach blankets at an archie convention, and should be immune from any complaints.

I agree
luckily here we have no problem at parks
we pick up trash that others leave (including other MD ers)

 

[gordonquixote]

If you ask, the answer will be no.

If you go for it and use a proper flap cutting technique and leave no trace, you'll probably never hear a word.

Me personally, I would detect the White House lawn if that big fence wasn't there and there wasn't legalese SPECIFICALLY referencing metal detecting.

Also, if I'm in a location where busybodies could flip out by not minding their own business, I keep my lesche in the holster with my shirt over the handle so all anyone will see is the detector....no shovel, no spade, etc. Public perception is half the battle.

I've been in a few places where I have had cops roll up and think to myself "here it goes"....instead I give a friendly wave and get one right back every time.

I guarantee you that cops don't have a clue about metal detecting, they will respond to a complaint about destruction of parks etc though. Do unto others, fix your holes, etc.

Go for it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.........
luckily here we have no problem at parks....

Gasp. Well you know what that means, don't you? Some people would interpret the "having no problems" as that..... therefore ...... it's not a problem afterall. But on the contrary: It merely means you guys, in your area, haven't gone asking enough officials for permission.

And if you get a "yes", it merely means you didn't go high enough up the ladder. Be sure to use key buzz words like "dig", "treasure", "holes", and "indian bones", and you too can find a "no". Then you'll be happy you went and did the "right thing". Ok, now hurry and go ask!

 

[351maverick]

"til often easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permisison"

I've had conservation officers roll up to me at my local STATE PARK while I was metal detecting...they just wanted to say hello & BS about the hobby

 

[hickory46]

I think from the way it is written that the bureaucrats have their butts covered 10 ways from Sunday. It's open to a whole lot of different interpretations that can always be tilted toward their side. You might get away with Mding there 5 times but the 6th time someone is going to get up on the wrong side of the bed and nail your butt and there will be nothing you can do about it. You need to weigh the consequences of "violating" that rule against whatever finds that you may recover. It's crappy but most of these unelected officials are some of the biggest asses to deal with.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

........You might get away with Mding there 5 times but the 6th time someone is going to get up on the wrong side of the bed and nail your butt and there will be nothing you can do about it........

Hickory, just curious: what kind of "but nailing" are you referring to? A simple scram? Or things like "tickets", "confiscations", "jail", and so forth?

If you meant the latter, then my question to you is this:

Can you cite an example of an md'r getting a ticket, jail, or confiscation, for detecting a place for which no law specifically said "no metal detecting" ?

The reason I ask is, such fears often get thrown out there as reasons why we need to go ask. And on the surface, this appears to be a reasonable reason to ask. Afterall, NO ONE wants to be arrested, jailed, and so forth. right?

But when you press those people for examples of such things happening, no examples are ever forthcoming. So I ask you: do you have any examples?

My hunch is, that anytime someone can come up with an example of "arrests" and "jail" "fines" and so forth, is invariably someone who can't take a warning, or is night-sneaking obvious historic monuments, or .... in some way should have known. NOT for innocuous beaches, parks, schools, etc.... If someone has an example to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Post-script: I'm sure that somewhere in the annals of time, that there *might* be an example of someone fined for a place that didn't have rules saying that (someone morphs something else to apply), wasn't necessarily historic, etc... In other words, I'll grant that perhaps someone can cite an example of someone "roughed up" (fined, confiscated, etc...) for hunting a modern sandbox somewhere. I mean, sure, anything's *possible*.

But to put that in perspective, SO TOO can I possibly find stories of a motorist pulled over, and roughed up, for nothing but a tail light out, by an over-zealous cop. Yup, car confiscated, ticket, jail, etc... for a tail-light out. Now we would all agree that this is an over-zealous cop, and is not to be taken as the "norm". I mean, when we read of something like that, we don't say to ourselves: "gee I shouldn't drive then" or "gee, I should ask permission to drive", etc.... Instead we look at those things as the exception, not the rule.

 

[OleSarge]

Some of our parks do have beautifully manicured turf and they do take great pride in the appearance of their shrubbery. And, were you anything other than a metal detector hobbyist, you would also endorse a no digging or cutting of turf ordinance being written into the rules of conduct for virtually every park in sight. With 100% success, my digging buddy and I have asked and been given permission to dig every park for several miles around our homes. Stipulations may include no digging in freshly sodded areas, certain areas where turf is especially manicured (e.g. a golf course) and areas where irrigation system buried electric circuits may be cut. When these restrictions are a part of the permission, we observe them impeccably and consistently. We get a business card from the maintenance supervisor giving us permission to dig, write the date/time recieved on it's reverse side, and, likewise, leave our card with him/her., Again, virtually every park, may it be City, County or State will have a statute against cutting turf or digging and it is not within the scope of any employees job to give someone permission to break these statutes. But, they can make case by case exceptions to policy and allow individuals to engage in activities such as playing soccer, driving tent pins, riding horses and walking dogs. These activities are also clear violations of the "digging" statutes but they also fall within the intended purpose the park serves, and the public won't be denied...and metal detecting is no different.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Some of our parks do have beautifully manicured turf and they do take great pride in the appearance of their shrubbery. And, were you anything other than a metal detector hobbyist, you would also endorse a no digging or cutting of turf ordinance being written into the rules of conduct for virtually every park in sight. With 100% success, my digging buddy and I have asked and been given permission to dig every park for several miles around our homes. Stipulations may include no digging in freshly sodded areas, certain areas where turf is especially manicured (e.g. a golf course) and areas where irrigation system buried electric circuits may be cut. When these restrictions are a part of the permission, we observe them impeccably and consistently. We get a business card from the maintenance supervisor giving us permission to dig, write the date/time recieved on it's reverse side, and, likewise, leave our card with him/her., Again, virtually every park, may it be City, County or State will have a statute against cutting turf or digging and it is not within the scope of any employees job to give someone permission to break these statutes. But, they can make case by case exceptions to policy and allow individuals to engage in activities such as playing soccer, driving tent pins, riding horses and walking dogs. These activities are also clear violations of the "digging" statutes but they also fall within the intended purpose the park serves, and the public won't be denied...and metal detecting is no different.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held

ole-sarge, thanx for posting this. This is a rare story indeed. I'm assuming metal detecting itself is not prohibited in the parks you're talking about, right? Eg.: nothing mentioning or spelling out "metal detectors" in the park rules, right? So this is only boiling down to a matter of the rules regarding "defacing" "cutting" "altering" "digging", and so forth. right?

So rather than go in and use the euphamism "can I metal detect?" (& conveniently leaving out any mentions of dig, probe, etc...), you've cut right-to-the-chase and gotten permission to DIG. Wow! You must have the golden touch of gab. Because the odds are, anyone, going into any city or county halls anywhere, and asking "can I dig in the park if I promise to leave no trace?" will get a "no". I mean, put yourself in that person's shoes: why should they be bothered?

Normally the FASTEST way to get a "no" anywhere, is to walk in and start talking about holes, digging, etc... Sure if you can ever get PAST that (which you did), then sure, you've covered all your bases, haven't relied on euphamisms. And heck, no one can come up and revoke your "yes" d/t holes, since your permission specifically spells out that that's EXACTLY what you'll be doing. Ha!

All I know is, scores of people get no's even without mentioning holes (merely because it's the go-to mental perception of the person you're asking, I suppose). And for asking "can I dig", the "no" rate climbs higher still.

And when great stories of "yes's" like this get floated, newbies take that to heart, and go out, and do exactly as you have done. I mean, hey, you can't argue with the success of such a post as this, right?

But then what happens, is the russian roulette game starts. And those persons risk a "no". And they risk that in places where no one ever had a problem before. And old-timers therefore, in those locales, upon hearing "you can't metal detect there", are left scratching their heads saying "since when?"

 

[OleSarge]

ole-sarge, thanx for posting this. This is a rare story indeed. I'm assuming metal detecting itself is not prohibited in the parks you're talking about, right? Eg.: nothing mentioning or spelling out "metal detectors" in the park rules, right? So this is only boiling down to a matter of the rules regarding "defacing" "cutting" "altering" "digging", and so forth. right?

So rather than go in and use the euphamism "can I metal detect?" (& conveniently leaving out any mentions of dig, probe, etc...), you've cut right-to-the-chase and gotten permission to DIG. Wow! You must have the golden touch of gab. Because the odds are, anyone, going into any city or county halls anywhere, and asking "can I dig in the park if I promise to leave no trace?" will get a "no". I mean, put yourself in that person's shoes: why should they be bothered?

Normally the FASTEST way to get a "no" anywhere, is to walk in and start talking about holes, digging, etc... Sure if you can ever get PAST that (which you did), then sure, you've covered all your bases, haven't relied on euphamisms. And heck, no one can come up and revoke your "yes" d/t holes, since your permission specifically spells out that that's EXACTLY what you'll be doing. Ha!

All I know is, scores of people get no's even without mentioning holes (merely because it's the go-to mental perception of the person you're asking, I suppose). And for asking "can I dig", the "no" rate climbs higher still.

And when great stories of "yes's" like this get floated, newbies take that to heart, and go out, and do exactly as you have done. I mean, hey, you can't argue with the success of such a post as this, right?

But then what happens, is the russian roulette game starts. And those persons risk a "no". And they risk that in places where no one ever had a problem before. And old-timers therefore, in those locales, upon hearing "you can't metal detect there", are left scratching their heads saying "since when?"

Tom, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say here. The first three lines of the "Code of Ethics" sticky at the head of this forum deal with obtaining permission. I have no reason to lie to you or any other MDer about the level of success we have enjoyed getting permission to dig parks, schools, public construction sites, or wherever we have asked. I do have a thread showing the face and reverse side of the business card we use as a introduction when asking permission. Do you have one...when can we expect it to be posted as a aid to newbies? My digging buddy, Metalwrkr and I have been approached many times by park staff and many more times by local law enforcement personnel, and have to date, never had any problem with a single person. On ocassions we have been approached by park maintenance workers and informed that a certain area was due aeration or resodding, and if we wanted to metal detect it, we'd better do it before they start work. Several local police force members do stop, talk and ask for advice with their own metal detecting endeavors, but we have never been told to leave a area or had harsh words with the authorities which CANNOT give us permission to DIG but can allow us to pursue a hobby consistent with the purposes intended for the area. A note to newbies, If getting told "no" is an embarrasment when asking to "dig" a area just tuck your little tail between your fragile legs and run home. This is preferable to disrespecting the people responsible for maintenance of a facility by sneaking in, digging, sneaking out and treating them like idiots by believing they don't even know you're the one ruining their nice turf.

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT hand held

 

[Mntnclmbr]

This is a common topic.............

My brief input:
If it isn't private and doesn't explicitly ban detecting (except cemeteries) I detect it.
National Parks: banned
State parks (Michigan): some banned, some restricted to certain areas, some
unrestricted.
I am very clean with my plugs and keep all trash to verify my good intent.
Have been questioned but NEVER asked to leave.
Respect goes a long way.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

uptown603, what you're saying is about private property. Sure, permission is needed. Sounds like you've got good local connections and methods

Ole-sarge, you say: "The first three lines of the "Code of Ethics" sticky at the head of this forum deal with obtaining permission...."

Are you referring to this cut-&-paste from that stickee?

"Before searching public sites, always check laws, ordinances or regulations that may govern your hunt. "

If so, re-read it again. It never says: "go ask 'can I' ", does it? It says to check laws. A person can find out what the laws are, without ever having to talk to a live person. So it does NOT mean "ask permission". It means to check to make sure if there's any rule that specificially said "no metal detecting". This point of the code-of-ethics has been mis-understood by a lot of people to mean that they need to grovel at city halls everywhere. But a close reading of it shows that it doesn't say that at all.

As I read your first post, it sounded like you were/are batting 100% on your permissions. And permissions to DIG no-less! No euphamisms or mincing words, but actually got officials to give you their blessing to dig in parks. And to that extent, I acknowldged that this is a testament to your skills, and rare indeed. A lot of "no's" get passed out (where no rule or law says such a thing), and the no-rate climbs higher still when someone starts talking about holes, digging, etc... So you must be an expert in your gift-of-gab, as I said. I assumed that those examples you gave of your success, were your extent of having asked so far, and that you, conversely, hadn't received no's in your tactics.

However, reading this post of yours, it sounds like those examples you previously gave, were examples of your "yes's". Am I now to understand that you've also netted "no's" as well? If so, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were batting 100% ?

 

[Martin_V3i]

If everybody really reads their city's codes, the vast majority will have the same exact verbage concerning parks and such just like the OP's. This the first downer I experienced when I first got a machine, and then I learned through association with new detecting friends that parks here were freely hunted. I pretty much wasted a good year of detecting public spots JUST because of these written words in the ordinances.

For those who say this automatically makes detecting illegal...read your city's ordanance just as closely and ask yourself if you will continue to hunt your local parks like always again. just sayin.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If everybody really reads their city's codes, the vast majority will have the same exact verbage concerning parks and such just like the OP's. This the first downer I experienced when I first got a machine, and then I learned through association with new detecting friends that parks here were freely hunted. I pretty much wasted a good year of detecting public spots JUST because of these written words in the ordinances.

For those who say this automatically makes detecting illegal...read your city's ordanance just as closely and ask yourself if you will continue to hunt your local parks like always again. just sayin.

Martin, yours is a great example of why we md'rs can often knock ourselves silly with worry about what *could* be morphed to say "no" to our activities (we DO "dig" afterall, right? And verbage DOES say things like "alter" afterall, doesn't it?). Yet REALITY (the "no-on-one-really-cares" factor) is sometimes quite different. I mean, that realistically, sure, such verbage was invented 100 yrs ago. so that no one can go cut down the park trees for firewood. Or spraypaint graffit on the park benches. Or bash out the windows of rec. hall building, etc...

But was it *really* ever meant to apply to you or I in this (where we're going to cover it back)? Probably not. COULD IT? Sure! just keep asking long enough and hard enough, and sure, you'll find someone to say it does. But IN EFFECT, as your case showed, no, no one cares. So long as you or I aren't leaving a mess, and have the good sense to go at low traffic times so as not to be a bullseye or eye-sore.

 

[stewart73]

Tom, you seem to be typing a lot of words to say, essentially, "when in doubt as to the laws of a particular place it's better to just go and dig anyway instead of asking permission". Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[bowhunter149]

Well here in Stafford County Va it's very clear what they mean.
Its a class 1 misdemeanor.

Stafford county VA
Sec. 17-22.1. Trespass on public property.

(1)
It shall be unlawful for any person, without the authority of the board of supervisors, to hunt, excavate, search out for, attempt to find or sell relics, or to use or be in possession of a metal detector on public grounds or property.

 

[OleSarge]

I nearly broke my ankle the other night slipping around my own bedroom in the dark. I figured if they didn't see me do it, I could safely remove that stupid tag from the mattress which clearly states "Do not remove under penalty of law." Considering the mattress is now a few years old, who could possibly care? Mattress cops, that's who!

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH outback/CT hand held