Sold My Gold for $94,000.00

[YoungPatriot]

A REAL criminal investigator is not going to talk to you about a case. I mean it is easy to give you a name of someone and that person may work for that agency. I could give you hundreds but outside of that there will be no confirming the story. What I find interesting is his amazing desire to provide details about something that means ZERO. This guy seems strangely compelled to selling his story. I am not sure why....not even sure if I care if I was not bored I most likely wouldnt be....I guess it is trolling a troll..... Would that be considered Anti-Trolling?

Having been a licensed PI as far back as 1981, I have had some small experience at investigations. What I don't see is any tangible benefit from the story, whether true or not. Certainly there isn't likely to be any money made no matter how it plays out. On the other hand, sometimes people will go to great lengths to make themselves appear (fill in the blank) in other people's eyes.

The blank could be:
a. Honest or trustworthy
b. Cool
c. Altruistic or philanthropic
d. Savvy or even naive
e. One or a combination of many things

You'd be surprised at the time and effort expended by someone who feels backed into a corner. Or maybe I'm completely wrong about everything and he is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I wouldn't bet on it, however.

 

[DurkaDigger]

Having been a licensed PI as far back as 1981, I have had some small experience at investigations. What I don't see is any tangible benefit from the story, whether true or not. Certainly there isn't likely to be any money made no matter how it plays out. On the other hand, sometimes people will go to great lengths to make themselves appear (fill in the blank) in other people's eyes.

The blank could be:
a. Honest or trustworthy
b. Cool
c. Altruistic or philanthropic
d. Savvy or even naive
e. One or a combination of many things

You'd be surprised at the time and effort expended by someone who feels backed into a corner. Or maybe I'm completely wrong about everything and he is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I wouldn't bet on it, however.

Well, I may have defer to your experience. I have to admit to not having any experience in the private sector. I was a state police investigator for the majority of my career and also spent a few years with a municipal agency. I started my first assignment in investigations working mostly internet crimes, from there to vice/organized crime, then a long stretch in narcotics as both a case agent and undercover at times, from there I did about a 1-2 years stay in public corruption. I ended back up as Lt. over patrol before I hung my spurs up. While I haven't had a lot of experience as a PI in the private sector, I do have A LOT of experience picking out a falsehoods and half truths. I have been to some very advance techniques employed by the FBI to analyze statements and I can tell you the yarn he was spinning....off the charts.

Could it be true...oh sure it could. Why tell a lie about stuff like that? Who knows.... People do a lot of things for attention some time.

 

[YoungPatriot]

Well, OP, you have a couple of folks to choose from to validate your story. I didn't promise I'd post the results of a look into it, but I can't see a reason not to if it is true, or even if it isn't. I just don't want any obligations on my time. DurkaDigger would be an excellent person to look into it if he were to agree to do so, but there are a couple of options for you. I can't imagine too much of a warm reception if: a) your story is checked and found to be false or b) your story somehow never gets verified.

On the other hand, you're under no obligation to post further info, send it privately, leave the thread/forum or even to return to the thread/forum. I don't think anyone here is going to suffer too much over a mystery. At least not this one. I could be wrong, though, I've been wrong plenty.

 

[SageGrouse]

Several people have commented that the moral of the story is "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

MY take in this is... The moral of the story is what W.C. Fields used to say. "You can't cheat an honest man.".

If the OP figured he could get over 90K from a $600.00 investment... that is NOT honest!

When you try to get "something for nothing" eventually the karma is going to catch up to you.

And the metal dealer has a perfect right to get angry and refuse to apologize.

Why?

Because what the OP did, whn he found OUT the gold was fake... is ANOtHER kind of scam! I've seen it worked before. Take someone for a large amount of money, THEN before he can call the cops, turn RIGHT around and hand him back *most* of the money but "split the loss"... The splitter comes away with a smaller but voluntarily given amount.

We just had a member on this board experience the SAME caper! Lost his camera and an "honest" neighbor picks it up, claims he "bought it off a kid" for $30 and now expects the money back. See how the game works?

Advice to the OP Take your $600 loss, give him BACK his money and get out of the business. Yer an amateur. NEXT time somebody's cousin Vito is gonna send yer car to the bottom of the river... with you in the trunk. $600 is chump change. Yer a dentist, figure it out. $95,000.00 or over is serious vigorish and not everyone is as nice as they look. For that kind of cash many men will do many things.

SageGrouse

 

[0m3nc0w63]

Several people have commented that the moral of the story is "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

MY take in this is... The moral of the story is what W.C. Fields used to say. "You can't cheat an homest man.".

If the OP figured he could get over 90K from a $600.00 investment... that is NOT honest!

When you try to get "something for nothing" eventually the karma is going to catch up to you.

And the metal dealer has a perfect right to get angry and refuse to apologize.

Why?

Because what the OP did, whn he found OUT the gold was fake... is ANOtHER kind of scam! I've seen it worked before. Take someone for a large amount of money, THEN before he can call the cops, turn RIGHT around and hand him back *most* of the money but "split the loss"... The splitter comes away with a smaller but voluntarily given amount.

We just had a member on this board experience the SAME caper! Lost his camera and an "honest" neighbor picks it up, claims he "bought it off a kid" for $30 and now expects the money back. See how the game works?

Advice to the OP Take your $600 loss, give him BACK his money and get out of the business. Yer an amateur. NEXT time somebody's cousin Vito is gonna send yer car to the bottom of the river... with you in the trunk. $600 is chump change. Yer a dentist, figure it out. $95,000.00 or over is serious vigorish and not everyone is as nice as they look. For that kind of cash many men will do many things.

SageGrouse

Dear Grouse, I am wondering if you actually read my post? it does not sound like it as your reply is riddled with inaccuracies and unfounded accusations regarding my character and honesty which I take offense to.

Let's begin with your first statement about it being fundamentally dishonest to make a profit of 13,800%.

Simply RIDICULOUS! What percentage profit on an investment is honest in your book? Where is the line you draw? How much can you profit and still be an honest person? My father invested about $5,000.00 back in 1986 when Microsoft went public. It has split something like 9 times since then. When you add in the dividends MS started paying in 2003 it works out to something like 50,000% profit... dishonest? I think not, my father is one of the most honest men I know.

And let's get one thing straight, I had no idea how the metal I purchased would pan out, so I did not "expect" anything. It would behoove you read more carefully and not elaborate on my story or rewrite my words with your colored interpretation of my actual vernacular.

Next you call me a scam artist for ASKING someone to CONSIDER something? You appear to be doing exactly what Rick did; listening but not "hearing", then attaching your own baggage to the words that trigger you emotionally and react without actually comprehending what was just communicated (I never seem to get along with people like this as there are always issues with communication).

Your story about the camera insinuates that I conspired this whole chain of events to split $600 just before he could call the police? This is so silly I really wonder about how rational you are... don't forget I would still be in the red from the initial purchase.

If you are upset that you spent all this time reading the 7 pages of posts in this thread then I am sorry that you can't get those minutes back. On the other hand if your virulent animus is coming from somewhere else, then those undertones of anger and hostility have me contemplating putting you and Rick in touch with each other. I think the two of you might get along smashingly LoL.

PS the 2nd part of your name is quite befitting, good choice :-)

Grouse A grumble or complaint, to complain pettily; grumble
Synonyms: grumble - mutter - grouch - murmur - complain - growl

Best, The Omen Cow

 

[SalemScott]

I'm

 

[Rudy]

My father invested about $5,000.00 back in 1986 when Microsoft went public. It has split something like 9 times since then. When you add in the dividends MS started paying in 2003 it works out to something like 50,000% profit... dishonest? I think not, my father is one of the most honest men I know.

Not to belabor the point but a stock market profit of 50,000% over a 27 year period is not quite the same as an immediate profit of 13,800% (didn't check the math, just used the same numbers).

It occurs to me that you assumed the original seller was selling real gold at such an outrageously low price, that you could "make a killing" by buying it at the asking price and immediately turning around and selling it at something closer to spot price. Rather than alerting the seller to having miss-priced his gold, you chose to buy it instead. Is that dishonest, or unethical? I don't know, I'll let your conscience be your guide.

Yes, there are people in the stock market that make money from momentary miss-pricing on equities and commodities. They are called arbitrageurs, but the miss-price is in pennies per share and they serve a useful purpose in the market place. In your case, I would hardly think your actions qualify you as a gold arbitrageur.

Are you owed a portion of the money you received from your buyer to offset your loss? No, you are not owed that money.

Should your buyer have done better due diligence in testing the material to ensure it was gold? Yes, he should be acid testing rather than electronic testing the material. But due diligence is a two edge sword. Should you have done due diligence in ascertaining your seller was selling you real gold? I think the answer to that is yes. If the seller claimed it was gold then your recourse is to go after him to recover your original investment, not to expect to be reimbursed from the person that bought it from you in good faith.

(BTW: I answered your question about electronic gold testers earlier in this thread).

 

[Dug13]

Coin_Master?

It looks like Coin_Master is back with his long stories........

 

[0m3nc0w63]

Not to belabor the point but a stock market profit of 50,000% over a 27 year period is not quite the same as an immediate profit of 13,800% (didn't check the math, just used the same numbers).

It occurs to me that you assumed the original seller was selling real gold at such an outrageously low price, that you could "make a killing" by buying it at the asking price and immediately turning around and selling it at something closer to spot price. Rather than alerting the seller to having miss-priced his gold, you chose to buy it instead. Is that dishonest, or unethical? I don't know, I'll let your conscience be your guide.

Yes, there are people in the stock market that make money from momentary miss-pricing on equities and commodities. They are called arbitrageurs, but the miss-price is in pennies per share and they serve a useful purpose in the market place. In your case, I would hardly think your actions qualify you as a gold arbitrageur.

Are you owed a portion of the money you received from your buyer to offset your loss? No, you are not owed that money.

Should your buyer have done better due diligence in testing the material to ensure it was gold? Yes, he should be acid testing rather than electronic testing the material. But due diligence is a two edge sword. Should you have done due diligence in ascertaining your seller was selling you real gold? I think the answer to that is yes. If the seller claimed it was gold then your recourse is to go after him to recover your original investment, not to expect to be reimbursed from the person that bought it from you in good faith.

(BTW: I answered your question about electronic gold testers earlier in this thread).

I think it may have "occurred" to you wrong. For the record I didn't "assume" anything as you put it, the seller (as I already mentioned in the OP) had an eBay feedback rating of 99.6% favorable, and a long history of selling scrap dental metal "at your own risk/no guarantees". He would not verify it was gold, and his only guarantee was that it was in no way magnetic. It's called speculation for a reason... because you can only do so much due diligence.

Big difference between someone who is auctioning large lots like this 10-20 times a month through their own eBay store (for years) and a poor old retired dental lab technician with memory loss who forgot it was gold and accidentally undervalued his retirement nest egg. If the latter were the case I would send him his gold back in a hot second wrapped in a gift certificate for a free cleaning having filled the rest of the box with toothpaste samples and dental floss.

I never said I was owed any money. So I am confused as to why everyone thinks I said that or wrote those words. I did not.

I did say I felt I was owed an apology for being called a criminal. I still do.

Thanks for the info on the electronic gold testing computers it is most appreciated. I am still terribly confused as to why there is even a market for them with this amount of liability present in using one.

Best - The Omen Cow

 

[Stunmi]

Even though this thread is supposed to be about the gold testing, I am curious as to a couple things regarding the gold crown building.

What is the normal recovery procedure for the gold sprues? Who owns that gold, the patient or the dentist? Can they not be remelted and used for the next customer, or do they have to be reassayed? That is quite a good chunk of gold, I am surprised that there is not detailed record keeping of them?

Now as for the nickel alloy- gold is one of the softest metals and nickel is extremely hard. A dentist can cut, grind, and polish this alloy with his traditional tools? And idk what the melting point is of it, but must be considerably hotter? To me it seems like a bich and if I was the typical in a hurry dentist I would not want to be slowed down fussing with this hard alloy.

 

[Captain Silver]

If everything's legit on your end, you have the proof you did nothing illegal...and you got the cash in hand and the buyer screwed up with his testing...it's your money and his loss...Keep the cash!

 

[SevenOneSix]

Cool story bro. I hope you're better at dentistry than you are at spelling.

 

[0m3nc0w63]

Even though this thread is supposed to be about the gold testing, I am curious as to a couple things regarding the gold crown building.

What is the normal recovery procedure for the gold sprues? Who owns that gold, the patient or the dentist? Can they not be remelted and used for the next customer, or do they have to be reassayed? That is quite a good chunk of gold, I am surprised that there is not detailed record keeping of them?

Now as for the nickel alloy- gold is one of the softest metals and nickel is extremely hard. A dentist can cut, grind, and polish this alloy with his traditional tools? And idk what the melting point is of it, but must be considerably hotter? To me it seems like a bich and if I was the typical in a hurry dentist I would not want to be slowed down fussing with this hard alloy.

Most dentists do not do their own lab work with regards to casting, we take an impression of the tooth with Polyvinyl Siloxane and send it to a lab to have the crown or bridge fabricated. The lab keeps the sprues and charges a flat fee for the crown and charges spot price for the amt. of gold used using pennyweight. So the lab owns the dental sprues. They are typically refined before being reused.

Yes a dentist can adjust hark nickel alloys with a dental handpiece. We use diamond coated burs that spin at almost a half a million RPM's. In fact enamel is quite a bit harder than gold.

If a crown doesn't fit the hope is that the lab made it too tight because it is easy to adjust it smaller. If it does not touch the adjacent or opposing teeth it needs to be sent to the lab to have material added to tighten these contacts.

Dentists typically don't need to do a lot of adjusting on gold nickel alloys because they are mostly used for PFM crowns and bridges. PFM is Porcelain-Fused-To-Metal. First a coping is made like this:

Then it is fired in an oven to oxidize the surface layer, this oxidation layer allows the porcelain to bond to the white gold like this:

When a dentist adjusts one of these they are adjusting the porcelain and we use a special set of adjusting and polishing burs to reclaim the original shine from the firing process.

The melting point of nickel-gold alloy is quite a bit higher than that of yellow dental gold. While yellow dental gold can be melted with a propane/O2 torch white PFM metal can only be melted with an O2 acetylene torch.

Best - Dr. OmenCow

 

[Stunmi]

Very informative, thank you sir.

 

[SageGrouse]

Yep! Grouse is the second half of my name for a reason.

First off... you are *far* too touchy! I never said you were a scam artist. I said that the desire to 'split the loss' is sometimes a scam. I've seen it done. Did *you* see it as a scam when you suggested it to the metal dealer? *shrug* I don't know. Nor do I care. I do NOT call people names. It's just not my trip. HOWEVER... it WOULD explain the metal seller's hostility! To HIM it probably *did* appear as a scam.

I'k not calling you a scam artist. I'm saying *he* percieved you as one. Clear?
Good. As for hostility... moi? *chuckle* I think not. But attempting or hoping to make a huge killing on a $600 investment is bad karma. I don't care what you woulda, coulda, shoulda... I notice what you *did*. Karma came around and bit you in the tender bits.

When you deal with the perceptions of others, you find that control vanishes instantly. You perceive the metal seller, and any/everybody who *disagrees* with you as being hostile. You're FAR too touchy. People see what they see and if you want to control other peoples' perceptions of you... it's a LOT harder than it looks. Control what you do and let the rest roll off your back.

I call it "Unca Swannie's Internet 101" but it goes farther back than that. Basically... if I decide to call you a... Oh... a giraffe! You're a giraffe! Yep that's it. You are 18 feet tall, have light yellow fur with darker brown patches, horns and gorgeous long eyelashes!

HEY EVERYBODY!! Om3nC0w is a GIRAFFE!! Looka the giraffe!!

Are you?

Now say I got a bunch of people to listen to me. We march down the street wearing "Om3C0w Is A Giraffe" buttons (in tasteful bright red) carrying signs and chanting.

Did that CHANGE anything about your personal reality?

Unless your ego boundaries are a LOT more permeable than those of most of humanity... I'd say not. D'you suddenly feel the need to eat hay? Nosh acacia leaves? Newp! Here's the secret...

All my screaming and ranting and swearing on a stack of Bibles does NOT change reality. (here's the tough part, Darlin') And neither does yours.


WHAT affects the perceptions of others? ACTIONS. And... completely independent of your own self-image, my friend... your ACTIONS are what others saw. And judged.Were you judged harshly? Maybe. But remember... all they have to go on is what they SAW.

Hakuna matata. Let it roll! See... when I call you a giraffe... or a butterfly... or a Yellow-banded Contorted Lousewort... it has NO effect until *you* permit it to. In my lifetime, I've been called some truly amazing stuff! My personal favorite was when I was accused of being the leader of a ring of... ahem... comercial ladies... by my own *parents*! (teenage stuff. none true.). Not once have I EVER permitted ANY of it *inside*, where my heart and soul dwell. I don't take poison into my self.

Do I bear you any animus? No. Not a particle. You are a stranger, and after you wander away, you'll go on being a stranger. Would I risk my life to pull you from a burning building? YES. It's how I roll. Would I spend the time to insult you for no reason? No. Not worth the effort. HOWEVER, you are edging into territory that is patrolled by *others* who are not NEARLY as forgiving!

Whether voluntary or not (I suspect not) you are *probably* starting to tweak noses in areas where noses ought NOT to be tweaked. Large sums of money attract sharks who are not NEARLY as friendly. So... reel in your quills
take the loss, AND accept that an apology is not in the stars for you... and walk away. It's that simple.

Again. I never "called you" anything. I commented on the ACTIONS. The actions are what are out there for others to judge. Walk away. You'll live a MUCH happier life. TRUST me.

SageGrouse

 

[itsaring!]

So..Uh?....How 'bout those Packers?

 

[lawman711]

Quit encouraging him.

 

[slag]

Quit encouraging him.

I would say, why doesn't everyone just relax and chill out and stop being jerks towards him.

At best, this is a really weird situation the OP needs to figure out what his best course of action is.

At worst, its a pretty neat story, with side stories rich with detail (sprue information), as well as other related subjects that the OP has described pretty well.

I've enjoyed reading the thread. Thanks!

Slag

 

[rfjuice]

Quit encouraging him.

Not to mention he only asked for information related to the electronic gold testers.

 

[bush13stbeav3r]

Sagegrouse..... For that post. I love u...lol...for many reasons... Highlights tho. Hakuna matata. Red buttons.....fav color... Mainly, ur impeccable rationalization of the interwebs..... Oh, and the idea of omengiraffe

-beav3r