Michigan state park detecting

Re.: A) I can give you multiple examples of where "permission" didn't save the person in example A. The griper tells the desk-jockey : "But he's tearing the place up " (which isn't true). And then guess what happens to the permission ? And ... praytell .... if the person in (A) gets a "yes", then that simply means it wasn't disallowed in the first place ? So how did the "yes" help him deflect the griper anyhow ? If it wasn't disallowed, then the griper can go pound sand anyhow, right ? :?:
I am “fretting myself silly”, and running “hither and yonder” trying desperately to figure out what the heck you’re trying to say here. What I won’t do is make assumptions about what you’re saying, or change the meanings of words just so I can generate an awesome, albeit incorrect, response.

To this I would reply : Any laws or "permits" that those persons appraised you of, could have likewise been looked up for oneself. Right ? There are no "secret" permits or laws. Eh ? Any issued permit must be on a list of available permits @ the city hall. All laws are in the muni-codes that anyone can look up for themselves. Right ?
OK…so what’s the difference if I look them up online or go to the offices and ask in person? If the laws are on the books, then I cannot be told “no”, correct? Plus, I do have to go there to fill out and then receive my free permit.
 
But the bigger response is this : Any time someone (like yourself here) gets a "yes", then .... to them ... this simply confirms the notion that : "Therefore it was a good thing I asked". Ie.: The 'yes' confirms your suspicions that asking permission was necessary and beneficial. It's as if: The mere granting of that "yes", CONFIRMS that : "Therefore it was necessary or beneficial to ask permission".
If nothing else, your responses put a smile on my face.

Laws can be looked up for oneself. And no ... I do not construe ancillary boiler-plate language (L&F laws, harvest/collect verbiage, alter & deface verbiage, etc...) to, of necessity, apply to us. If those things, of necessity, DID apply to us, is the day that every single park, beach, forest, etc... across the entire USA , is automatically off-limits, w/o the princely say-so of every last archie, gardener, lawyer, etc... in the country.
I, ipso facto, do hereby construe compulsory, Constitutionally enlightened verbiage upon thou such that we can nonetheless contemporaneously imply, via the constructs of this tome, that any and all manners of criticism must first be routed between the electrically charged poles of two oppositely configured ion generators in order to instill the fact that your "message" makes about as much sense as this one.
 
Do those pencil pushing politicians/town officials ask my permission about how to spend/waste my tax dollars?
Oddly, believe it or not, she was not actually pushing any pencils! Can you believe that? She was, however, friendly and courteous and wished me luck in my hunting.
But to answer your question, "No", they not do ask you directly how you would prefer to have "your" tax dollars wasted or spent...but one could argue that they do indirectly, via elections.
Also, it's called being a member of a society, which is not really a new concept...it's been around a while and seems to work pretty well.
 
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....When I searched the internet for the rules about detecting in the city parks near where I live and work, I could not find any definitive answers....

Then the rules there were "silent on the issue" of md'ing. Right ? Thus if there's nothing addressing md'ing (ie.: silent on the issue) why can't that be good enough ? :?:

If it's not dis-allowed, then presto, it's not disallowed. Right ? What are you waiting to see ? An express allowance ? Eg.: "metal detecting allowed here" type language ? :?:

But again: This all boils back to your premise that md'ing = harmful. If true, then sure: All that you're saying does indeed logically follow.

...Do we understand now?.....

We understood all along. It was quite clear from your posts that you consider md'ing to be harmful.
 
Oddly, believe it or not, she was not actually pushing any pencils! Can you believe that? She was, however, friendly and courteous and wished me luck in my hunting.
But to answer your question, "No", they do ask you directly how you would prefer to have "your" tax dollars wasted or spent...but one could argue that they do indirectly, via elections.
Also, it's called being a member of a society, which is not really a new concept...it's been around a while and seems to work pretty well.

Well...good for you. She was an exception. Elections are a farce whether you believe it or not. Once the elected ones get in office they do as they please. And by the way....I am a member of society. Because I gave my opinion on this post that differs from yours makes me somewhat beneath you? Take off your halo.
 
.... OK…so what’s the difference if I look them up online or go to the offices and ask in person? If the laws are on the books, then I cannot be told “no”, correct? Plus, I do have to go there to fill out and then receive my free permit.


AAahhh, excellent and fair question. Notice what I put in bold , in your quote, above. Here is where the "devil is in the details".

The answer is : YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN be told "no", even if no specific express prohibition exists. Even if/when you are careful to word the question: "Are there any laws that prohibit the use of metal detectors in the park?" (which, at first blush, would seem to put the burden of proof on them to *cite* any such law or rule, if one existed, right ?).

But there's ample cases of persons who get told silly things like "No, because you will dig". Or "No, because of harvest and collect" verbiage. Or : "Everything you find is city property". Or "No because you might disturb an indian bone", blah blah And all such silly answers as these have come from places that .... quite frankly ... were never a problem for anyone before.

I can give you several local examples if you want. And after reading them , you tell me if there was any harm done in asking.

As for a "permit" for md'ing: This is actually very very very rare for any city (or county parks, etc... ) to have ever dreamed up such a thing. But ... in cases where such a thing does exist: Then it will be on a list of available permits . Eg.: Garage sale permits, parade permits, etc.... All such things that have a fee-schedule by a public entity, are on a list somewhere for public viewing.

If you *really really* feel the need to talk to a live person (because you can't find the muni-codes and park rules on-line), then you ask in this fashion: "Hi. Where can the public avail themselves of all the rules that apply to park usage. Eg.: Dogs on leash, no fireworks, etc... And any permits for various park uses. Eg.: group area reservations, bounce house permits, etc...". The clerk will point you to where that exists in print form. If nothing there says "No metal detecting", then presto: Metal detecting isn't prohibited.
 
If nothing else, your responses put a smile on my face.

I, ipso facto, do hereby construe compulsory, Constitutionally enlightened verbiage upon thou such that we can nonetheless contemporaneously imply, via the constructs of this tome, that any and all manners of criticism must first be routed between the electrically charged poles of two oppositely configured ion generators in order to instill the fact that your "message" makes about as much sense as this one.

Will you two Thesaurusly adept Master multisyllabators please take this discussion into PM mode or at least get a room? 98% of the ombudsmen legal interpreter pencil pushers and most of the Forum lacks the mental capacity required to accurately distinguish the difference between excrement and applebutter, and here you two are!...'ipso fatsoing' all over the gosh darn place! Lets circle back to the initial queery..."Can a guy go find a penny in a Michigan SP or not?:laughing:

Too much thinking and not enough doing...henchforth, I operate under NIKE rules..Just Do IT! 'Occams Razor', coupled with a finely honed and practiced acute sense of timing and a bit of bravado applies in most cases involving legalities and their enforcement......succinctly stated: NIKE Rules apply..."Aw the Hellwiddit! Whats the worst that can happen" Just Do It! :funnyup:

Time and Gold wait for nobody!...Thanks NIKE, both for your shoes and simple 1 syllable 3 word Life advice that is fairly accurate in most all Life matters not involving Female participation....'Just Do It' is certainly not advisable in that case..."Run Forrest Run!" is...
 
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Will you two Thesaurusly adept Master multisyllabators please take this discussion into PM mode or at least get a room? ..

Shheesskk, you're one to talk ! You are the one deserving the golden-pen thesaurus award ! :wow:
 
Well...good for you. She was an exception.
And you know this, how? I went to two different Government buildings (County and City) and talked to four different individual. All of them were friendly, helpful, and had no issues with me metal detecting. Maybe it’s how you approach the situation?


Elections are a farce whether you believe it or not. Once the elected ones get in office they do as they please.
I’m getting an “anti-government” vibe in this thread.

And by the way....I am a member of society. Because I gave my opinion on this post that differs from yours makes me somewhat beneath you? Take off your halo.
Well, if you're a member of society, then you should know that not all of your tax dollars are going to be spent exactly as you would prefer...but to then call that spending as a “waste” does leave one to wonder what you do consider as wise spending versus wasteful spending. One person’s “waste” is another person’s “wise”. Welcome to a society.

Also, I never said I was, in any way, above you, nor do I wear a halo. Actually, to say that of me is quite humorous…thanks for the chuckle.
 
Flies-only: I'm not anti-government. But I'd like to make an observation on this statement/concept:

... and talked to four different individual. All of them were friendly, helpful, and had no issues with me metal detecting.....

This seems to infer that: Because you got "yes ('s)", ... that

Therefore this means that asking was necessary and proper.

Right ? Because, if it had not been necessary and proper to ask, they would have answered something like this :

"Gee that's a funny question. Why are you asking me? If it's not disallowed, then you don't need my say-so "

But do you really think anyone in authority and position of power ever answers like that? On the contrary, they bestow on you their princely say so. And whether the answer is yes or no, I do not construe that to mean that : " therefore their say-so was needed".

I'm glad that you got repeated yes answers. But there is an equal number of stories of people who got "no'", simply on whimsical "safe answer " rationales. In places where.... quite frankly, it was never a problem before that.
 
And you know this, how? I went to two different Government buildings (County and City) and talked to four different individual. All of them were friendly, helpful, and had no issues with me metal detecting. Maybe it’s how you approach the situation?


I’m getting an “anti-government” vibe in this thread.

Well, if you're a member of society, then you should know that not all of your tax dollars are going to be spent exactly as you would prefer...but to then call that spending as a “waste” does leave one to wonder what you do consider as wise spending versus wasteful spending. One person’s “waste” is another person’s “wise”. Welcome to a society.

Also, I never said I was, in any way, above you, nor do I wear a halo. Actually, to say that of me is quite humorous…thanks for the chuckle.
Glad I gave you a chuckle. It seems to me that you don't want anyone else to have a differing opinion other than what you think. It took you a few days to respond which tells me you sat up late thinking of what to say. Go bother someone else with your holier than thou outlook. I will not respond further to any of your posts/comments.
 
Glad I gave you a chuckle. It seems to me that you don't want anyone else to have a differing opinion other than what you think.
Do you not see the irony in your statement?
Truth be told, I value other opinions and I have never said that yours, or anyone else’s, is wrong.

It took you a few days to respond which tells me you sat up late thinking of what to say.
Don’t flatter yourself, it took a few days to respond because I was in northern Minnesota for a 100 mile mtn bike race…Lutsen 99er. Had a blast, finished in 8 hours 29 minutes (just in case you were curious).

Go bother someone else with your holier than thou outlook. I will not respond further to any of your posts/comments.
Why, exactly, do you say that I have a holier than thou outlook? All I’ve done is respond with…well...actual facts. Not sure how doing so makes me Holy, since I’ve never once brought up religion…but to each his own, I guess.
 
"anti-government" vibe?

Are you a metal detecting conspiracy theorist?

thanks for laugh!
Ummmmmm...do you know what a conspiracy theory is? I only ask because I'm not the one spouting stuff about the Gov "wasting" my tax dollars without asking my permission. I'm not the one saying the Government will stop my ability to detect if I dare make an inquiry. I'm not the one saying elections are a farce.
 
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Flies-only: I'm not anti-government. But I'd like to make an observation on this statement/concept:
This seems to infer that: Because you got "yes ('s)", ... that
Therefore this means that asking was necessary and proper.
I notice you love to infer meaning into everything I write, rather than just taking the entirety of my statement in context. Look, simply because I got a “yes”, in no way infers that therefore my question was necessary and proper. But, as usual, they only way your response fits is if your “inference” is correct. Everything with you seems like a dichotomy…it’s always “if this, then this”, which seemingly ignores so many other potential explanations.
I asked in person because:
A) Often times, trying to find all the [potential] rules and regulations online, can be difficult.
B) The location I was inquiring about was literally across the street from the Gov offices, and I would
pass right by those offices on my way to that location.
C) I’m a people person. I like talking with people. I’m a friendly, outgoing kinda guy.
D) I don’t think the Gov is out to screw everyone.

Right ? Because, if it had not been necessary and proper to ask, they would have answered something like this :

"Gee that's a funny question. Why are you asking me? If it's not disallowed, then you don't need my say-so "
Where do you come up with this stuff. Your whole argument hinges on all of your rather silly inferences and premises being correct. That is to say, the only way your response makes sense is IF, it is indeed factually correct, that my question was “necessary and proper”. But there’s absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to make that assumption. My question may very well not have been necessary, because, as you state, the “rules” may very well have been available online. But, as it turned out, I could not find that “rule” on their webpage, so I stopped by and asked. So while my inquiry may not have been necessary in hindsight, because md’ing is allowed, me not knowing whether or not it is allowed, however, made it a question that I did want to have answered.
We both know that md’ing is NOT allowed in numerous places. We both know that if a police officer or park ranger see’s you detecting in an area where it is not allowed, that there may be some negative ramifications as a result. My inquiry, then, was a reasonable course of [preventative] action. The “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission” mindset doesn’t really help when your equipment is confiscated and you face a hefty fine. Trying to avoid that situation seems like a smart move, no?

But do you really think anyone in authority and position of power ever answers like that?
Of course not…I never said anyone would answer like that, so why are you asking me if I think they would? Once again, your response is essentially a response to your own assumption, and not based in any way on anything I have said. You’re essentially arguing with yourself.

I'm glad that you got repeated yes answers. But there is an equal number of stories of people who got "no'", simply on whimsical "safe answer " rationales. In places where.... quite frankly, it was never a problem before that.
You do realize that there being "an equal number of stories" means that there is only one other story of someone who got a “whimsical, safe answer”? :) I assume you meant to say that there are numerous examples of people being “whimsically told no”…so the remainder of my response will be based on that assumption. So anyway, maybe so…I have no factual basis to argue that position. But I will point out that I have not personally read of anyone confirming your claim.
 
Flies-only: Thanx for clarifying. Most of the time, when/if this topic comes up : Persons are "very swayed" by the fact they got a "yes" somewhere. As if that bolsters the notion that : Therefore permission-asking was/is necessary. If you're saying that's not the point of citing your "yes" answer then: Thanx for clarifying.

.... But, as it turned out, I could not find that “rule” on their webpage ....

Can I ask what "rule" you are looking for ? Are you looking for something that specifically says "md'ing allowed here " ? (ie.: a specific allowance ?). If so: Then no, you won't find that. Just like you won't find a specific allowance to whistle dixie, or skip stones on the pond, or fly kites. There does not need to be "specific allowance" to do something. Instead, what you would be looking for, is any prohibitions. And if you don't find one (ie.: silent-on-the-subject), then presto: Not disallowed.

And if you can't find any park or muni rules on their websites (which is unusual in this day and age), then here's another way to find the applicable rules (assuming you really really want to talk to a live person) : You ask : "Where can I find the list of all the law, rules, and permits, that apply to the usage of the park(s) ? Eg.: Dogs on leash, no fireworks, etc...." They will direct you to where it exists in print form somewhere. Eg.: a link, or in binder form at the library or city hall, etc... If it's silent on the matter of md'ing, then .... there ya go :)

If they say : " What is it that you wanted to know ?", you stick to your guns and say: "To know where the public can avail themselves of rules/laws that apply to park usage". Personally, I don't fret myself at all to this degree. But if someone is *really* worried, this is the way to do it, without appearing to be grovelling at pencil-pusher's desks for princely say-so's.


....We both know that md’ing is NOT allowed in numerous places. .....

In which cases: There would be a rule stating-as-such . There are no laws/ rules that are "secret" after all.

.... The “It’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission” mindset doesn’t really help when your equipment is confiscated and you face a hefty fine. .....

A) this pithy saying implies that you are/were therefore doing something wrong, in the first place, that ... therefore ... requires forgiveness. Lest why else "ask for forgiveness", if you weren't doing anything wrong ? But why that implication for md'ing ? If it's not illegal (which you can look up for yourself), then presto, nothing to ask for "forgiveness" for, in the first place. Right ?

B) Can you cite any incident of any md'r getting 1) equipment confiscated, and/or 2) hefty fines, for : MD'ing in innocuous normal city parks anywhere ?

Any incidents of "confiscations" and "fines" is always invariably for someone sneaking obvious historic sensitive monuments. Or someone being obstinate that can't take a "scram". If you can cite any incident of normal routine benign park or beaches or forests generating such a thing, I would REALLY love to hear it .

.... But I will point out that I have not personally read of anyone confirming your claim......

I hope it's ok to post a T'net link here. Here is just one example. I can post dozens more, if you like :) And when done reading all of them : You tell me is asking "Can I?" was a good idea or not .

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...tate-ca-beaches-example-post.html#post5727697
 
Can I ask what "rule" you are looking for ? Are you looking for something that specifically says "md'ing allowed here " ? (ie.: a specific allowance ?). If so: Then no, you won't find that. Just like you won't find a specific allowance to whistle dixie, or skip stones on the pond, or fly kites. There does not need to be "specific allowance" to do something. Instead, what you would be looking for, is any prohibitions. And if you don't find one (ie.: silent-on-the-subject), then presto: Not disallowed.
Sigh....No, I was not looking for something saying "md'ing allowed here", since I have a brain and realize that nothing like that would be stated.
Instead, I was looking for regulations about md'ing. I know that there are regulations regarding State parks, and regulations regarding Country Parks, and regulations regarding State Game Areas, so I saw no reason to assume that there would be no regulations regarding City parks as well...so I searched, to the best of my abilities, for those regulations. When I had no luck on their webpage, I stopped by the office on my way to the park.

And if you can't find any park or muni rules on their websites (which is unusual in this day and age), then here's another way to find the applicable rules (assuming you really really want to talk to a live person) : You ask : "Where can I find the list of all the law, rules, and permits, that apply to the usage of the park(s) ? Eg.: Dogs on leash, no fireworks, etc...." They will direct you to where it exists in print form somewhere. Eg.: a link, or in binder form at the library or city hall, etc... If it's silent on the matter of md'ing, then .... there ya go :)

If they say : " What is it that you wanted to know ?", you stick to your guns and say: "To know where the public can avail themselves of rules/laws that apply to park usage". Personally, I don't fret myself at all to this degree. But if someone is *really* worried, this is the way to do it, without appearing to be grovelling at pencil-pusher's desks for princely say-so's.
I really see no reason to argue this approach, as it seems reasonable to me, and a pretty good idea.

Challenge it in a Court of Law.
 
....No, I was not looking for something saying "md'ing allowed here", since I have a brain and realize that nothing like that would be stated.... .

Splendid. Then when/if you saw no prohibitions, then : You would conclude that it is therefore not disallowed.

And regarding this link:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/tr...ml#post5727697

You say:

....Challenge it in a Court of Law.

Curious why you would suggest that ? If, as-is-the-case: You can detect here till you're blue-in-the-face, then .... why would someone want to go "challenge" this rogue/ fluke "no" answer ? The only thing that might result in, is: Someone making a "pressing decision" to this "pressing question", and inventing a new-policy going-forward. Why swat hornet's nests ? :?:
 
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