Legal definition for "damaging grass"

[JohnnyPhoenix]

Tom, don't think I accused anyone here of lawlessness? I was pointing out how all-encompassing the authorities claim as their right to regulate. The OP said they couldn't MD in a taxpayer funded park because he would "damage grass". I just stumbled on the regs for a particular town while trying to age some parks. Reporting does not equate to endorsement.

JP

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom, don't think I accused anyone here of lawlessness? I was pointing out how all-encompassing the authorities claim as their right to regulate. The OP said they couldn't MD in a taxpayer funded park because he would "damage grass". I just stumbled on the regs for a particular town while trying to age some parks. Reporting does not equate to endorsement.

JP

Ok. And yes I agree that those evil statutes *could indeed* be invoked on us. And even if you "leave no trace", you and I will probably be on the loosing end of a debate of semantics.

So I just go at low traffic times and avoid such kill-joys. Problem solved

 

[Bagelbites]

I'm sure that Sacramento has similar wording somewhere in the city code. I mean, it should be illegal to deface, destroy, etc, park grounds, right? As someone else said, this stuff wasn't written for detectorists.

I will hunt any reasonable public place, without doing any research about any laws or codes, in any city I'm in. The worst that can happen is that you're asked to leave, which still hasn't happened to me yet.

 

[JohnnyPhoenix]

I rarely work a busy park, but mostly because I don't want to answer all the "What'ca finding?" questions.

Now then, I never understand why when I report the state of the law I get pushback? The OP said the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) claimed he couldn't MD because he would be damaging grass. I simply posted the regulations that I came across here, just for contrast and comparison. No, these laws are *not* written with metal detectorists in mind, but we should be aware that they *could* be used against us and plan/behave accordingly. Behaving responsibly is our best approach, but we should have a plan to tactfully address those who do not. Whether we like it or not, every time we detect on public property, we are ambassadors for the activity. What we do today make or breaks the permissions we (and others) receive tomorrow. Personally, I find the best way to stay out of trouble is not to get into trouble. I would prefer to go about my business without impediment, but we live in a litigious society, unless you're filthy rich, then you just buy your way out of everything, but then why would you MD?

JP

 

[maxxkatt]

In all my years I have been kicked out of one park in north Atlanta. It was a small park surrounded by homes and withing 5 minutes a government desk jockey (the city hall was 2 blocks away) was asking me to leave. Well I gave her an strong right upper cut and then punched in her nose and she went down. No easy feat she wasn't exactly a featherweight. I got about 10 more minutes of detecting before I heard the police sirens and I ducked into the trees and walked to my car parked on the other side of the park.

Naw, just kidding, I politely told her I didn't see the sign with the rules about no digging in the park. It is the busybody homeowners who cause the most trouble in my opinion.

Other than that incident I have put many hundreds of hours detecting and digging (and covering my holes carefully) in front of park workers and the local police. At most I get asked the universal question "find any thing good?". Park workers and police metro Atlanta for the most part are not interested detectorists. We are basically invisible to most people, we are just part of the park landscape.

As far as asking any government deskjocky about permission you are just poking a stick down a yellow jacket's nest and you will not have a favorable outcome.

The forum owners should make a compilation of Tom's posts and make a stickey out of it.

Heck here in Atlanta the police will probably come up and hug a detectorists considering all the !!!! they have to take from the antifi agitators stirring up peaceful and rightful protests into thug looting in burning in our city which we rarely ever see.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... It is the busybody homeowners who cause the most trouble in my opinion......

ok. And moral of that story ? You have two choices: 1) convert that/those homeowners to love and adore you , or 2) Simply avoid being seen by those homeowners ?

C'mon guys, you're never going to convert the entire world to "love and adore you". I mean, seriously, we have a hobby that is filled with connotations. Eg.: that you might (gasp) take something. And that you might (gasp) have to *dig* (aka "alter" and/or "deface"). So for pete's sake, just go when singular-said-lookie-lous are not present. I mean, sheesk, let's be honest: The park is not FILLED with these archie type people, eh ? So why oh why do you think you can go waltzing over beach-blankets at high noon, and get everyone's blessings ?

.... As far as asking any government deskjocky about permission you are just poking a stick down a yellow jacket's nest and you will not have a favorable outcome.

The forum owners should make a compilation of Tom's posts and make a stickey out of it.....

haha, yes: Don't swat hornet's nests, which will only result in the "No one cared till you asked" psychology. And sure: Put this in a stickey ! (my rates are reasonable )

 

[dixiedigger57]

I know the non sports park boss maintenance supervisor in one of my towns. He said no problem just don't leave a hole be careful of cable signs, remove trash. done deal. the overall boss handles the ball fields. they are no-go zone period and have the most park worker folks. the little street dividers and neighborhood playgrounds, a little clad junk occasional ring or earring lost, no issue and under good guy. . most hammered to death over decades. supposed to get a permit, good for 6 months ...no digging... surface only.. at the main office of no go guy. . and still no ball field even with no digging. yea right. why bother.

after hours quiet days no grasscutters remove trash cut neat plugs. has worked for years. the city/county mergered 7 yrs ago and had different ordinances and nothing was done right or clear.

you don't kick a sleeping bear, or ask one if he is going to eat you. stealth, hole rules, trash rules, less people.

 

[Wom 27]

Here we go again.
So l got kicked off county property at the court house two Sundays ago. The cops said it wasn’t public property but county property. I needed to ask the guards on Monday. So l did. They didn’t know anything. So I tried the internet and it didn’t know either.
So I went back this Sunday. A young know it all guard yells from 20 feet up , out a window, that I can’t metal detect. I told him a woman walking her dog just walked by and the dog took a dump. She cleaned up after. So I said, as long as she cleans up after, she gets to enjoy using county property. Why is it that if I clean up after, it’s not the same?
He told me to look up county ordinances and I’d find it. I did him better and had the township office look up the ordinances. He lied. It’s not there !
As I was leaving, a cop pulled in behind me and waited for me to leave.
I am tempted to go back this Sunday with my printed out list of county ordinances just because sometimes you just feel like a fight.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Here we go again......

Dude, it sounds like you're hunting at high-visibility times. The fact that someone leans out window, tells me you're there during day-time business hours, right ? Then why not go on a Sunday ?

And for the life of me: Since when isn't "county" property = "public" property ? I don't get it.

But be aware, that ... sure .... when it comes to nice manicured turf, there DOESN'T NEED TO BE a specific "no md'ing" rule. They can just rely on the "alter" language. So why can't you just hunt at 5am on a Sunday, when the streets are deserted and the offices shut down ? Heck, it's gotten to where I do 90% of my nice-manicured turf hunting at night. Just pick a full-moon night and don't use any back-lights or head-lamps. And you will be invisible. Presto, problem solved.

 

[Wom 27]

Dude, it sounds like you're hunting at high-visibility times. The fact that someone leans out window, tells me you're there during day-time business hours, right ? Then why not go on a Sunday ?

And for the life of me: Since when isn't "county" property = "public" property ? I don't get it.

But be aware, that ... sure .... when it comes to nice manicured turf, there DOESN'T NEED TO BE a specific "no md'ing" rule. They can just rely on the "alter" language. So why can't you just hunt at 5am on a Sunday, when the streets are deserted and the offices shut down ? Heck, it's gotten to where I do 90% of my nice-manicured turf hunting at night. Just pick a full-moon night and don't use any back-lights or head-lamps. And you will be invisible. Presto, problem solved.

The place is closed to celebrate the virus. I go early Sunday because most people who are up, are usually at church.

 

[metaladdict]

Thanks Tom! That was my thinking after my exchange...and by the way, it wasn't San Jose, it was a neighboring city (10 minutes away). Regardless, I usually MD early in the morning where there aren't a lot of people and tend to be finished by 9 am...

If it's Santa Cruz, I've detected there once.

 

[metaladdict]

I have been in contact with the local city parks and recreation director regarding MD'ing in parks in the city I live. Her response was "metal detecting in this city is officially illegal". When I asked her what law states that, she pointed me in the direction of the local municipal code. Within that code, there is NOTHING that says using a metal detector is illegal, but what she added was that "damaging the grass" was a municipal code violation. I guess digging is illegal (I'm thinking using a large shovel), but what if the digging is done in a thoughtful manner (a plug done with a hand trowel) where the grass can recover, and there is little if any evidence that I even dug a hole when I'm finished? What happens if people playing a sport that requires cleats (soccer, baseball, etc), dig up the grass? Wouldn't they in theory be in violation of the municipal code? Sorry for the rant, but I'm trying to do the right thing. If I need to buy a permit and pay a fee, fine, I'm willing to do that, but if there is no law against using a metal detector, I'm at a loss for words...

Sheesh, in the bay area I just detect any park unless I see a sign saying do not disturb the turf.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Sheesh, in the bay area I just detect any park unless I see a sign saying do not disturb the turf.

And... actually... even if I saw such verbiage, I would still detect. Because as long as you leave no trace, then presto: You haven't "disturbED" anything, now have you ?

 

[Donut]

Bet you burned your own bridge asking because the natural response would be no. And now she has it in her mind for the future.
I’ve found in situations it’s best to detect less out on the open and wait for the police to say you can't detect there and just politely leave if they say you can’t.
Many time the police just drive by or stop and talk because they are just interested.
If you ask the police about detecting they will automatically say no.
I had one new policy office said I couldn’t and I asked him where was he at when I started detecting that area for 60 years. He laughed and drove away and I kept detecting. He waves the next time I seen him drive by. But always be very polite and friendly.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....
Many time the police just drive by or stop and talk because they are just interested.
If you ask the police about detecting they will automatically say no.
....

Good post. You summed up the psychology in short words. Yup, it's the old "No one cared till you asked" psychology.

And yes, as much as we are brainwashed to think "everyone hates us" and we need red-carpet permissions rolled out, Yet it's as you say: It's the exact opposite most of the time.

I remember one time seeing a cop car stop , and a cop heading my way, while I was md'ing. And I thought "oh no, here it comes, I'm going to get scrammed". Yet all the cop wanted to know is "what's the best thing you ever found" and "where can I buy one of those" , blah blah

 

[LongJohnSilver1]

I've come across this here as well. I've only been chased off once, and other times i had council workers dig up top soil for me as they worked. I think just being polite and tidy is enough

 

[metaladdict]

And... actually... even if I saw such verbiage, I would still detect. Because as long as you leave no trace, then presto: You haven't "disturbED" anything, now have you ?

At this location Tom, you go at night.

 

[metaladdict]

ok. And moral of that story ? You have two choices: 1) convert that/those homeowners to love and adore you , or 2) Simply avoid being seen by those homeowners ?

C'mon guys, you're never going to convert the entire world to "love and adore you". I mean, seriously, we have a hobby that is filled with connotations. Eg.: that you might (gasp) take something. And that you might (gasp) have to *dig* (aka "alter" and/or "deface"). So for pete's sake, just go when singular-said-lookie-lous are not present. I mean, sheesk, let's be honest: The park is not FILLED with these archie type people, eh ? So why oh why do you think you can go waltzing over beach-blankets at high noon, and get everyone's blessings ?




haha, yes: Don't swat hornet's nests, which will only result in the "No one cared till you asked" psychology. And sure: Put this in a stickey ! (my rates are reasonable )

I agree Mods, we need a sticky from Tom speaking about don't ask authorities.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

At this location Tom, you go at night.

And I know that might sound abhorrent to some people. They would think of that as "sneaking around", eh ? But no need to think of it that way. Instead, it's no different than the .... proper timing discretion you would use to choose your timing as to when to pick your nose. You choose discreet polite timing, "so as not to offend the squeamish". AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH "legal" vs "not legal".

 

[metaladdict]

Definitely do not detect National parks or cemetery.
No I haven't done either of these.