High Impact Bullets! (And the Chewed Minieball Question)

Trust me, I get it. We all want all of our finds to be something special, unique, rare, different, more-meaningful, etc. But without evidence to support it, its just a wild conjecture. Hence, the whole "it looks like a colonial sword hanger to me!" thread from way back when. And I'm not saying a chewed bullet is a bad find - any day I can find something from the Civil War is a great day, regardless of condition! But sometimes, no matter how much we want to ascribe a higher significance to an item, we simply lack the evidence to make that claim. There is no evidence to say that these chewed up bullets were used for pain, and scant evidence that the vast majority were even chewed by humans rather than some other animal.

Good job on your work for the government. Sounded real impressive there at the end. Nice touch.

Thanks! It was an incredibly rewarding experience, and I highly recommend it if anyone out there gets the chance. :D

All that being said, we don't know they are pain bullets. True. But they were chewed. By people. For one reason or another.

Well, they were chewed. That's about the extent of what we can say, without having witnessed the actual chewing or having some specialized training in forensic dentistry. Most experts believe that the majority of such "pain bullets" were actually chewed by animals.

Look, people who think current scientific consensus represents 'truth' are little different than those who think truth only comes from holy books. We all get to have our opinion while a question is unproven. Calling something myth doesn't make it so.

True enough. But which sounds more dogmatic to you. That we don't know that they were used for a specific purpose, and there is no historical record of them being used for that purpose, so we should not ascribe that purpose to them. Or that we should ascribe a particular purpose to the dug relic without any evidence supporting that assertion. You talked about Occam's razor before. It simply doesn't make sense that such a widespread practice (judging from the number of such bullets found) would not once appear in any of the millions of Civil War letters, diaries, and recollections.

But we can agree, it's your bullet, you can call it whatever you want. As you so eloquently put it, "doesn't make it so."

as I see it is that you can get in front of a vid camera and state you know everything that happened during the CW .

He's not just some joe schmo with a video camera. He's Executive Director of the Museum of Civil War Medicine. I'd say that qualifies him to speak on the subject. And there's plenty more experts where he came from, all reaching the same conclusions. It's possible that a tiny minority of chewed bullets may have been used for pain, but we will never know for any individual bullet, and the vast majority were likely animal chewed.
 
Here is mine.
 

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Trust me, I get it. We all want all of our finds to be something special, unique, rare, different, more-meaningful, etc. But without evidence to support it, its just a wild conjecture. Hence, the whole "it looks like a colonial sword hanger to me!" thread from way back when. And I'm not saying a chewed bullet is a bad find - any day I can find something from the Civil War is a great day, regardless of condition! But sometimes, no matter how much we want to ascribe a higher significance to an item, we simply lack the evidence to make that claim. There is no evidence to say that these chewed up bullets were used for pain, and scant evidence that the vast majority were even chewed by humans rather than some other animal.



Thanks! It was an incredibly rewarding experience, and I highly recommend it if anyone out there gets the chance. :D



Well, they were chewed. That's about the extent of what we can say, without having witnessed the actual chewing or having some specialized training in forensic dentistry. Most experts believe that the majority of such "pain bullets" were actually chewed by animals.



True enough. But which sounds more dogmatic to you. That we don't know that they were used for a specific purpose, and there is no historical record of them being used for that purpose, so we should not ascribe that purpose to them. Or that we should ascribe a particular purpose to the dug relic without any evidence supporting that assertion. You talked about Occam's razor before. It simply doesn't make sense that such a widespread practice (judging from the number of such bullets found) would not once appear in any of the millions of Civil War letters, diaries, and recollections.

But we can agree, it's your bullet, you can call it whatever you want. As you so eloquently put it, "doesn't make it so."



He's not just some joe schmo with a video camera. He's Executive Director of the Museum of Civil War Medicine. I'd say that qualifies him to speak on the subject. And there's plenty more experts where he came from, all reaching the same conclusions. It's possible that a tiny minority of chewed bullets may have been used for pain, but we will never know for any individual bullet, and the vast majority were likely animal chewed.


As much as I don't understand why I'm compelled to keep this going, it is interesting. I've been considering this question the last few days. Now, one of your base assumptions is wrong, IMO. That would be your consistently laying the foundation of your statements with an "I'm sure it feels good to think your finds are more important than they are". That's a condescension that I'm sure applies in far fewer cases than you think. Just an aside.

As I was mulling this over yesterday I thought about two things. One, your Executive Director of the Museum of Civil War Medicine. I'm sure he's a great researcher, so am I, and probably so are you, and he's probably right about the documentation, but I've rarely seen a academic functionary who understood half as much about what he studied (rudimentary battlefield medicine in a triage situation, lets say), in a real world sense, as he/she should. I suggest he won't submit this theory for PR or try to publish it. So no, his title, unless you have a thing for academics, shouldn't be conscrued as meaning he's even moderately competent in anything besides signing off on display remodels. I know lots of professors, particularly in my field, who are barely sane really. His position suggests we should consider his position on the subject, but certainly not take his 'take' as gospel. "Professing" is a career choice, not a statement of anything at all except an impulse to conformity.


Also, the statement about animals chewing minieballs. I know I've said this before but it bears stressing. It sounds logical, unless you've spent any time observing hogs. They may bite them, even regularly, but the end result wouldn't explain what we find. Really. (Not saying a hog never bit a minieball but they don't chew them like we find them, rotated and lightly chewed until you end up with a minieball that has maintained it's basic shape only with molar marks around the circumference. They smash them with huge pressure. Every time. Without fail. They think things they pick up are a nut to be cracked. When they pick up a rock it sound like a pistol going off. Crack! Crack! Then they spit it's mangled remains out. They would bite your finger off. They can bite off the end of a broomstick without effort. A lead ball would be flattened and probably bit in half in one or two bites. They don't bite anything easy or with half effort. Marks I could put in a lead minieball with my incisors were NOT made by a hog.....)

The second point actually woke me up last night. The old saying.

It's time to "bite the bullet".

Which literally means, "prepare to take the pain".

That saying may actually be your 'first hand account', as by the next big war, a bitable bullet was history, and given the huge number of wounded/killed in the Civil War even if rare, it was not uncommon. Especially in Southern triage tents. Not direct evidence sure.

Anyway. It's been fun and I accept neither one of us has convinced the other of anything, but I hope whoever reads this thread comes away with a better understanding of the 'Bitten Minieball' question, on whichever side they may fall, and you instigated the discussion. Well done.
 
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Dirt, how dare you question people that have Titles !! Just because they make conclusions after admitting they do not have all the facts .
Thanks again to everyone posting pics .
HH
 
I guess I have a very rare backwards impacted bullet,which I think
is a Confederate Enfield. Very rare indeed!
Here is a pic of it ,unfortunately a little blurry pic :roll:
The link to my thread :
http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=61245


Very nice! Reminds me of a Monopoly Game piece. The Hat. Do you see any dent in the outer rim of the minieball that looks like it was made before firing? Possibly a 'stretched' cut? Balistically speaking, I can't imagine what would cause a rifled minieball to impact backward unless it was dented before firing and it split as it exited the bore? Anyway, very cool piece!
 
Very nice! Reminds me of a Monopoly Game piece. The Hat. Do you see any dent in the outer rim of the minieball that looks like it was made before firing? Possibly a 'stretched' cut? Balistically speaking, I can't imagine what would cause a rifled minieball to impact backward unless it was dented before firing and it split as it exited the bore? Anyway, very cool piece!

I will take a better pic of this bullet. But first I must find the case where I have them - so many relics I keep already HaHaHa :p:laughing:
 
Like I said, you can say they were chewed on by Martians if you like. There's just as much evidence for that as there is for the "pain bullet" theory.

Many are probably nothing more than animals. Some may have been from biting on out of boredom, or fear. I doubt those would have the strong, deep, impressions of the "bubblegum" bullets often found. It is possible that a handful may have been chewed during a surgery, but given that anesthesia was fairly common (and surgeries delayed when it was unavailable), and the practice would be very dangerous for the patient, and that the practice was never once written about - well, it is highly unlikely that it ever took place. Most professional historians have dismissed this theory as highly unlikely, but it is possible that it id happen a time or two.

All I'm saying is, there's no proof as to how they got that way. You're claiming that you KNOW for certain how they got that way without any proof whatsoever. Whatever floats your boat I guess. I'm going to start calling mine Martian bullets. :)
 
Gt you went from Myth and conclusion to Theory and possibility, admitting no real proof. I like that your moving in the right direction. Now just state IMO, and drop all the Martian BS and we have discussion .
HH :shock:
 
I see little point in it to be honest. It's already clear that the opinions of experts are not only dismissed with little regard, but with contempt. The majority of sources believe the vast majority of bullets of the type were the result of animal activity. The idea of bullets being used in surgery is exceedingly unlikely for all the reasons stated above. It is possible that a small minority of these bullets were created some other way, including by human teeth. We'll never know. But I'm going to go with the consensus of the majority of the experts - the idea of the "hospital bullet" is a myth. They are, as I've stated above, mangled bits of lead unless it can be shown otherwise. Believe what you want to believe, mine are still Martian-chewed bullets. :D
 
Gt you went from Myth and conclusion to Theory and possibility, admitting no real proof. I like that your moving in the right direction. Now just state IMO, and drop all the Martian BS and we have discussion .
HH :shock:

A little movement maybe. :roll:

'Experts' are worshipped by some, dismissed by some.....whatever. I've been around true believers of one sort or another enough to enjoy trying to understand them. Some folks think, others regurgitate what others think. Just the way we pop out I guess.....
 
I see little point in it to be honest. It's already clear that the opinions of experts are not only dismissed with little regard, but with contempt. The majority of sources believe the vast majority of bullets of the type were the result of animal activity. The idea of bullets being used in surgery is exceedingly unlikely for all the reasons stated above. It is possible that a small minority of these bullets were created some other way, including by human teeth. We'll never know. But I'm going to go with the consensus of the majority of the experts - the idea of the "hospital bullet" is a myth. They are, as I've stated above, mangled bits of lead unless it can be shown otherwise. Believe what you want to believe, mine are still Martian-chewed bullets. :D

'The opinions of experts'......most believe, most bullets......i'm going with the majority....therefore this is 'myth'.....that breaks every rule of logic and debate I've ever heard of...

Okeedoke. 'Martian Bullets' they are. Chewed by Deer and Porcupines and such, while at dinner in their adorable little hats.....

There's my 'Myth'.
 
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I've been around true believers of one sort or another enough to enjoy trying to understand them. Some folks think, others regurgitate what others think. Just the way we pop out I guess.....

You're a "true believer" in the camp of believing that these are "pain bullets". Without evidence supporting that conclusion. That's not thinking, that's guessing and proclaiming to know your guess work as fact.

'The opinions of experts'......most believe, most bullets......i'm going with the majority....therefore this is 'myth'.....that breaks every rule of logic and debate I've ever heard of...

Since when does citing sources go against logical debate?

I've yet to see you post any original documents which support the idea of chewing a bullet during surgery. Do that, and I'll be happy to give some more credence to the idea of "pain bullets". Until then, the opinion of the experts - that pain bullets are a myth - seems the most logical explanation for all the reasons stated above. But you can believe whatever you want about anything you dig up, it's a free country.
 
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