Follow up on the cellphone ....asked a few cops this morning...plus a video of what might happen....

[Bayoutalker]

I think I will leave this one to the experts.



I will still do what I want



Here is the best advice I can give.



When is it a good time to talk to a police officer?



NEVER

The best time I've found to talk to a police officer is when I've bought one a cup of coffee and a donut. It never hurts to be civil and do a good deed. You never know when you will encounter them in a different situation or need their help. Most will remember that you were a good guy.

Cliff

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...You never know when you will encounter them in a different situation or need their help. ....

good post Cliff. I go out of my way to say "thanx for your service" to cops I bump into. Just like you'd say to a military service person.

 

[ToySoldier]

The young couple insisted they only "found" it .

If anyone wants the rest of this story, I'll find the link to where I posted the full story a few years back. It had interesting legal ramifications to our hobby.

They probably would have been fine if they had taken it to the jeweler and made it clear that they thought it was costume junk but want to know the value just in case it's worth trying to return. Or, if there was some way to identify the owner through the stone. I can only assume they said something to the jeweler to give him/her the impression they had other plans for the ring. Maybe the jeweler asked if they'd be interested in selling it if it's real and they said yes. I'm just guessing.

Nobody should spend even a day in jail for merely finding a ring and trying to find out its worth either online or at a jeweler. That is, unless you do or say something to suggest you had other motives. The prosecutor would have to prove you didn't spend your spare time perusing "lost" ads and weren't at the jewelry store to find out if the ring was worth making an even greater effort to get it returned.

Not every state requires you turn items over to the police, but rather make an honest to goodness attempt to return it. In practice, I would assume that an honest to goodness documented attempt to find the owner would even be enough to not get arrested even where turning a ring over to the police is technically required.

Leave an ad up on Craigslist for a few months and print or save a copy of the ad. Save a copy of the classified lost ads for a few days after you found it. Save some search ad results. Don't even think about selling or wearing the ring during that time. That's not legal advice, but common sense says it should satisfy any "reasonable effort" standard if one is concerned about a valuable ring.

 

[ToySoldier]

I heard of a rogue case of a young couple who eyeballed a diamond ring in the parking lot of a grocery store.

https://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/...nder-charged-with-keeping-found-diamond-ring/

Here's a case of a public defender who was charged and arrested for finding a ring in a restaurant parking lot and sitting on it until the news/police released video of her. Found on Feb 7 (of 2013), reported lost by owner on Feb 12, and video from the restaurant released on Feb 19. Apparently, the owner came back to the restaurant and was told somebody came inside that night and asked what they should do with it.

Her (four) lawyers made the argument that she didn't actually violate the law because she never "appropriated the property for her own use". She never wore it, tried to sell it, or alter it. That is, possession is not the same as converting it for her own use. Also, they argued the law does not specify a time limit.

I have a Newspaper.com account and can't find a single follow up to the case after the news that she was charged and turned herself in. I can only assume the case was dropped. She's also still working as a lawyer.

 

[DbblTap]

So if I find a water bottle on the beach I should waste my time finding the sub human who littered the beach?

I can not be held responsible for anybody who tosses out what they do not want. As per that lady who found no value at all in that ring to lose it, she took it off to hide something. What was that something? Now by her and the locals with too much time on their hands, they are helping her cover up something.

Just because I may have the tools to save your @$# does not mean I will without a value placed on what I found and exchanged.

Sent from my LGLS775 using Tapatalk

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Toy-soldier, thanx for taking a stab at another one of my "bee-in-the-bonnet" subjects

They probably would have been fine if they had taken it to the jeweler and made it clear that they thought it was costume junk but want to know the value just in case it's worth trying to return. .....

Ha As I recall the story: At the point in-which they took it to the local small-town-jeweler (the only jewelry store in the small town), their only small-talk questions were : A) "Is it real?" and B) "If so, What's it worth ?"

I dunno if any specifications of small-talk specifically said anything about "found" or "... am considering tracking down owner" or "I intend to hawk for sale", etc... But .... think about it Toy-soldier: The persons who are wanting to know 1) Is it real? and 2) value ? May be wanting to cross-that-bridge first, to even know if it's worth the hassle (or "obligation") thereafter.

If I recall, nothing was said to the jeweler about "will you buy it". But perhaps something as benign as "what's it worth?" could be *construed* as willingness/intent to sell. Eh ? Yet the finders could merely say this was a step to determine whether-or-not it fell within the value criteria of L&F laws.

So do you see it's not so cut & dried as the what transpired (down-to-the-letter) in the small talk at the jewelry store counter.

....Nobody should spend even a day in jail for merely finding a ring and trying to find out its worth either online or at a jeweler. That is, unless you do or say something to suggest you had other motives. The prosecutor would have to prove you didn't spend your spare time perusing "lost" ads and weren't at the jewelry store to find out if the ring was worth making an even greater effort to get it returned.......

But ... "trying to find out its worth..." can be construed as "intent to sell", eh ? And perusing "lost ads" isn't fulfilling the 50 state's L&F laws. Or any "greater effort" to "get it returned" satisfies either. Eg.: putting a CL "found" ad, etc.... The 50 states L&F laws do not make allowance for a person's own noble efforts. They all merely say to take them to the police station.

And ... when you think about it ... for good reason : Otherwise : ANYONE can make the defense that they "tried their durndest" to find the owner, by merely posting a "found" ad on the telephone pole nearest to the location. etc..... Or, for example, the value criteria threshold : Is it melt value ? If so: An Apple x phone that you "found" in the Starbucks has only .25c in copper, silicone, plastic, etc..., right ? So it's not up-to-you to determine value. You must march to the police station and let them determine the worth/value. Right ?

....Not every state requires you turn items over to the police, but rather make an honest to goodness attempt to return it. In practice, I would assume that an honest to goodness documented attempt to find the owner would even be enough to not get arrested even where turning a ring over to the police is technically required. .....

I believe that all 50 states have L&F laws. Born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800's. The value threshold is typically something like $50 to $200 or whatever. And while you're probably right that .... no one's going to be arrested if they "made an effort", yet .... technically .... they are in violation of the law if they don't "trot down to the police station".

And let's be brutally honest : How many of the forum show & tell beach guys, showing off their latest gold rings, HAVE EVEN MADE ANY ATTEMPT to return un-marked bands and rings ? About the *only* time you hear of attempts, is class rings which can be traced. None of us is "trotting down to the police station" with our normal rings (even ones with large stones). Right ? Because we assume they could have been lost for years, and no one is any-longer looking for them .

So all those beach hunters are technically supposed to be rushing to the police station with those rings. And if no one claims them in 30 days, then theoretically they get them back. After paying for storage and processing fees. And ... if the police *did* find the owner, they are under no obligation to tell you who claimed it. D/t privacy laws. So I have my doubts that ... in some police dept's, that the md'r would ever get the rings back after the 30 days.

https://jonathanturley.org/2013/02/...nder-charged-with-keeping-found-diamond-ring/
......
Her (four) lawyers made the argument that she didn't actually violate the law because she never "appropriated the property for her own use". She never wore it, tried to sell it, or alter it. That is, possession is not the same as converting it for her own use. Also, they argued the law does not specify a time limit. ......

Great link. Good "precedent" material. But .... highly subjective. The "intent to sell" issue could be argued the moment if-she-ever-went to get it appraised. And .... if the issue of "not specifying a time limit" seems to be something that might-be-applicable after a few weeks. But ... sheesk.... what if that went on for years ? At what point does it become clear that a person has no intention of "trotting down to the police L&F dept" ?

Anyhow, that's an interesting link .

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Just because I may have the tools to save your @$# does not mean I will without a value placed on what I found and exchanged....

So your "tool" (the metal detector you paid $$ for) allows you to "charge a price" for the L&F things you find ? Maybe in your mind's eyes. But not in the eyes of the law.

I have a $250,000 street sweeper (d/t I own a street-sweeping business). If my sweeper sweeps up a diamond ring, am I allowed to "hold it ransom" until the person who lost it ponies up $$ ?

Maybe I could *ask*. But *Legally* ... no ... the ring belongs to them. They are under no obligation to pay me a finder's fee (unless arranged ahead of time for a posse-hunt-hire situation).

Example: If you "find" an Apple X phone on the park bench, and are about to "save the @$#" of the person who is about to walk-away without it, can you "place a value" on "what you found", and tell the person "pay me $$ and I'll give it back to you " ? No. Of course not. So too are we not entitled to any obligation of $$ from the rightful owner.

All that I am saying is strictly "legally allowable" discussion. It is not a reflection on "real life" scenarios (tips, gratitudes, etc....)

 

[DbblTap]

So your "tool" (the metal detector you paid $$ for) allows you to "charge a price" for the L&F things you find ? Maybe in your mind's eyes. But not in the eyes of the law.



I have a $250,000 street sweeper (d/t I own a street-sweeping business). If my sweeper sweeps up a diamond ring, am I allowed to "hold it ransom" until the person who lost it ponies up $$ ?



Maybe I could *ask*. But *Legally* ... no ... the ring belongs to them. They are under no obligation to pay me a finder's fee (unless arranged ahead of time for a posse-hunt-hire situation).



Example: If you "find" an Apple X phone on the park bench, and are about to "save the @$#" of the person who is about to walk-away without it, can you "place a value" on "what you found", and tell the person "pay me $$ and I'll give it back to you " ? No. Of course not. So too are we not entitled to any obligation of $$ from the rightful owner.



All that I am saying is strictly "legally allowable" discussion. It is not a reflection on "real life" scenarios (tips, gratitudes, etc....)

You have a point there !

Sent from my LGLS775 using Tapatalk

 

[ToySoldier]

Toy-soldier, thanx for taking a stab at another one of my "bee-in-the-bonnet" subjects

Thanks, I think. I do try to resist!

Ha As I recall the story: At the point in-which they took it to the local small-town-jeweler (the only jewelry store in the small town), their only small-talk questions were......

To be fair, without the article and police report, we can't really say what the nuances were of the conversation between the jeweler and the couple who brought in the "found" ring. Heck, even if we had those things it's not like they capture those details, or it would be one sided.

Regardless, it's easy to imagine two extremes. Maybe the couple were known neighborhood tweakers and didn't say a word other than "how much is this worth?" On the other extreme, I have a hard time imagining the jeweler going along with a sting operation if he or she thought the couple were nice enough, had a believable story about finding the ring (i.e., probably didn't steal it), and were just interested in whether it was valuable or not. If it was out of the jeweler's hands, as long as they're not on the record as trying to sell it, then their lawyer will argue they were simply trying to determine it's value, which would change what steps should be taken to return it.

The 50 states L&F laws do not make allowance for a person's own noble efforts. They all merely say to take them to the police station.

You keep repeating that, but it doesn't make it true. The article I linked is just one example of a state that says people need to take reasonable efforts and doesn't specifically require the police station. Here's the law right here:

https://statutes.laws.com/georgia/title-16/chapter-8/article-1/16-8-6/#sthash.nli8bOEe.dpuf

And ... when you think about it ... for good reason : Otherwise : ANYONE can make the defense that they "tried their durndest" to find the owner, by merely posting a "found" ad on the telephone pole nearest to the location.

Reasonable efforts is exactly what they're going to be looking for. Even where it's required to go to the police, I doubt you can find a single example of a person being convicted of anything who was able to show some reasonable efforts like posting a found ad in the paper.

An unmarked gold band on a busy beach has a different expectation of "reasonable steps" than a wallet with an ID and a few hundred in cash.

 

[chillforlife]

The best time I've found to talk to a police officer is when I've bought one a cup of coffee and a donut. It never hurts to be civil and do a good deed. You never know when you will encounter them in a different situation or need their help. Most will remember that you were a good guy.

Cliff

Excellent post Cliff. Never had any encounters with the police. Not even a speeding ticket. But if I ever do I hope I'll show them respect. Seems like you usually get what you give. Also seems to me like most people who do have less than pleasant interactions with law enforcement might want to examine their own part in that interaction.

 

[Bayoutalker]

Excellent post Cliff. Never had any encounters with the police. Not even a speeding ticket. But if I ever do I hope I'll show them respect. Seems like you usually get what you give. Also seems to me like most people who do have less than pleasant interactions with law enforcement might want to examine their own part in that interaction.

The best time to get to know your local L.E. personnel is before you meet them in a less than nice encounter. If you see them at a restaurant or store just say hello. Buying them a cup of coffee isn't a bad thing either.

Cliff

 

[3.14R8]

Great thread, Tom and Scuba I really enjoyed your posts.
A few months ago I found a wallet with ID, cash and credit cards in it. Wanting to do the right thing I took it to the sheriffs station. They were horribly rude and wouldn't even give me proof of handing it in. Needless to say I will NEVER do that again. In hindsight I should have just taken a twenty out of the wallet and mailed it to the guy.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Great thread, Tom and Scuba I really enjoyed your posts.
A few months ago I found a wallet with ID, cash and credit cards in it. Wanting to do the right thing I took it to the sheriffs station. They were horribly rude and wouldn't even give me proof of handing it in. Needless to say I will NEVER do that again. In hindsight I should have just taken a twenty out of the wallet and mailed it to the guy.

Bummer that you had the "rude" experience. But ya gotta figure that cops can become so "jaded" after awhile, (hearing all the cry-babies that come in off-the-street griping about this and that), that they become "stoic" after awhile.

As for the turning-things in to the police, to be in compliance with L&F laws, most states have a provision that you would get the item back, in 30 days, if no one claimed it. After possibly paying "storage fees", and "publication costs", if they had run a classified ad for it.

But ... if someone claims it, they are under no obligation to let you know who it was. D/t privacy laws or whatever.

So .... think about it : What's to stop an unscrupulous desk-personnel from calling their "cousin Joe" and saying : "Hey Joe : Come into the station, and describe a Rolex watch with such & such features" ? I know this sounds horrible, but .... think about it: It was never "yours" in the first place. You only "found" it. You turned it in knowing full well it might be claimed.

I have often thought about turning in my own wedding ring as a test. And then coming back in 30 days to see if anyone claimed it.

 

[3.14R8]

Bummer that you had the "rude" experience. But ya gotta figure that cops can become so "jaded" after awhile, (hearing all the cry-babies that come in off-the-street griping about this and that), that they become "stoic" after awhile.

As for the turning-things in to the police, to be in compliance with L&F laws, most states have a provision that you would get the item back, in 30 days, if no one claimed it. After possibly paying "storage fees", and "publication costs", if they had run a classified ad for it.

But ... if someone claims it, they are under no obligation to let you know who it was. D/t privacy laws or whatever.

So .... think about it : What's to stop an unscrupulous desk-personnel from calling their "cousin Joe" and saying : "Hey Joe : Come into the station, and describe a Rolex watch with such & such features" ? I know this sounds horrible, but .... think about it: It was never "yours" in the first place. You only "found" it. You turned it in knowing full well it might be claimed.

I have often thought about turning in my own wedding ring as a test. And then coming back in 30 days to see if anyone claimed it.

I videoed the wallet and contents before handing it in so I still have the guys address. if I'm ever in the guys town I may knock on his door and see if he got it. It just kind of rubbed me the wrong way that they wouldn't give me any proof that I even handed it in. This was a fresh drop in the street.
Hopefully he got it back.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...
Hopefully he got it back.

Your heart is good !

 

[Darth_Finger]

Man this thread takes the fun out if metal detecting. Not messing with any cell phone after reading all this. Time for a drink!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Man this thread takes the fun out if metal detecting. Not messing with any cell phone after reading all this....

Shark attack story-psychology. 1 million people swim in the ocean daily, without incident. But if there is 1 story of attack, then : You won't "have fun swimming" . Right ? Nor "mess with swimming". Right ? Never mind the 999,999 "non-incident" swim incidents.

Ok, sure, yes, it's *possible* that "someone can screw you". Likewise, you should never leave your front door in the morning. Because , after all, You might get hit by a mack truck while crossing the street. And if you doubt this, I can find a newspaper headline of someone who got hit by a mack truck. Eh ?

Yet I'm sure that you will not hesitate to leave your front door in the morning.

 

[hazben]

15 years ago my mother worked at a putt-putt golf place in a very touristy area. She found a purse with quite a few hundreds in it. She didn't count the money, just turned it into the police. A few days later the lady came back in and my mother asked if she had gotten her purse. The owner said she had but mentioned how it was a shame the money was gone since it was their vacation money. My mother felt it was best not to mention to the owner when she turned it in it still had the money inside.

Later she mentioned this incident to some of the residents who had lived there their whole lives and they laughed and the consensus was it was pretty much standard practice.