The Rebel
Forum Supporter
Pehaps you were looking at Austrian Lorenz? They came in various calibers. see this link for more info: www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm
First musket ball and appears to be rifled?
- Thread starter jayreef
- Start date
sharpshooter
New Member
One more thing to mention. Lets not limit our thinking to just rifles or hand held firearms for that matter. Canister Shot and/or Case Shot was commonly used in various cannon of the period.
Marcucco
Forum Supporter
But it wouldn't be rifled
SCARFOOT
Senior Member
I still feel this piece is not a ball marked by rifling of a barrel. I understand the whole patch/gas thing but you would think due to the patch pushing and surrounding the ball would even give it less chance to make that much friction with the barrel. I still find it hard to believe one would make such a barrel that caused this much damage to the projectile. I still feel it was produced that way (molded). I also think this projectile was dropped and not shot. Even cannon shot is usually not perfectly round after discharge is it? Still stumped and I hate being stumped. I have been searching and searching!!! and continue!!
PS. If you think the projectile is a softer lead that would even back up a theory of not being shot as it would buldge re-shape on fire?
PS. If you think the projectile is a softer lead that would even back up a theory of not being shot as it would buldge re-shape on fire?
jayreef
Elite Member
Wow, I went to bed, and itgot lively round here.
When I get back from work I will take and post macro shots of the ball.
It does have a flat spot, it's sitting on it. I will show the mold lines also, and do my best to show the profile of the ball from the top. I noticed something interesting last night.
Once again
thanks folks for all your help
When I get back from work I will take and post macro shots of the ball.
It does have a flat spot, it's sitting on it. I will show the mold lines also, and do my best to show the profile of the ball from the top. I noticed something interesting last night.
Once again
thanks folks for all your help
jayreef
Elite Member
Ok, here we go, hope these help
1/. close up picture of the seam running from 12 o'clock towards 6 o'clock
2/. Side view of ball, flat spot is too the right hand side of the image, ball appears thinner than taller
3/. close up view of the flat spot, the flat spot appears more pitted than the rest of the ball, to my mind that would occur under explosion of ignition, but open for correction quite happily. (looks like the moon)
and last but by no means least
4/. looking directly at the rifling from rear point of view, now this is what i have seen, and would love to know what you guys think.....
does it appear, starting from a groove and moving counter clockwise that the curve of the land falls in before the next groove, and then steps up again before falling down slightly again as the process repeats itself?
could this be a centrifugal force being evidenced?
and as a final note, whilst strolling for hours last night i found this page on the net that describes old rifled muskets for sale, that describes each weapon in detail, and as you go through them, the number of rifle grooves varies according to the private small maker.
http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogues/as121207/page19.htm
1/. close up picture of the seam running from 12 o'clock towards 6 o'clock
2/. Side view of ball, flat spot is too the right hand side of the image, ball appears thinner than taller
3/. close up view of the flat spot, the flat spot appears more pitted than the rest of the ball, to my mind that would occur under explosion of ignition, but open for correction quite happily. (looks like the moon)
and last but by no means least
4/. looking directly at the rifling from rear point of view, now this is what i have seen, and would love to know what you guys think.....
does it appear, starting from a groove and moving counter clockwise that the curve of the land falls in before the next groove, and then steps up again before falling down slightly again as the process repeats itself?
could this be a centrifugal force being evidenced?
and as a final note, whilst strolling for hours last night i found this page on the net that describes old rifled muskets for sale, that describes each weapon in detail, and as you go through them, the number of rifle grooves varies according to the private small maker.
http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogues/as121207/page19.htm
jayreef
Elite Member
Hi
Yeah, 15 grooves, and 15 Lands, i have been googling till i am blind, can not find one.
I think Marcucco suggested earlier that it might have come from a custom, or small known maker of weapons, i am starting to think he is on the money.
Yeah, 15 grooves, and 15 Lands, i have been googling till i am blind, can not find one.
I think Marcucco suggested earlier that it might have come from a custom, or small known maker of weapons, i am starting to think he is on the money.
Rammjäger
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2007
- Messages
- 4,173
Just Google it under micro-groove
There was a Flintstock target rifle with octogonal barrel too.
Circa 1680
Sixteen - sided ....Micro-groove rifling ....Calibre 16 MM
Your lead ball could well have then been fired from a 17th
century Flintstock.
There was a Flintstock target rifle with octogonal barrel too.
Circa 1680
Sixteen - sided ....Micro-groove rifling ....Calibre 16 MM
Your lead ball could well have then been fired from a 17th
century Flintstock.
jayreef
Elite Member
Hi Rammj?ger
I could not find the weapon you described but have now also emailed the weapons catalogue and auction house.
http://www.thomasdelmar.com
They have seen a lot of weapons and hopefully might shed some light if they have the time
I could not find the weapon you described but have now also emailed the weapons catalogue and auction house.
http://www.thomasdelmar.com
They have seen a lot of weapons and hopefully might shed some light if they have the time
Marcucco
Forum Supporter
When you contact the auction house,
It will be 15 lands (and 16 grooves).
The "grooves" in the projectile are caused by the "lands" in the barrel,
The spaces between the lands in the barrel are called the grooves.
I know it seems contradictory, but as the process started over there you cant blame us for that one.
The Caliber (Calibre) will also be of interest to them.
Caliber is just 100 ths of an inch.
ie: 12.7 mm = 50 Caliber
Excellent photography by the way.
It will be 15 lands (and 16 grooves).
The "grooves" in the projectile are caused by the "lands" in the barrel,
The spaces between the lands in the barrel are called the grooves.
I know it seems contradictory, but as the process started over there you cant blame us for that one.
The Caliber (Calibre) will also be of interest to them.
Caliber is just 100 ths of an inch.
ie: 12.7 mm = 50 Caliber
Excellent photography by the way.
SCARFOOT
Senior Member
Yes I agree with Marc..that is one neat ball!!!
Wrangler
New Member
I musket ball would have had a cloth wrapped on it covered in grease. Would the barrel be able to make grooves through this cloth?
I have shot my rifled 7 mag and recovered the bullets. None of them have any signs of grooves. I have also recovered spent civil wat minie' balls. None of these have grooves either. I'm leaning on someone was testing new ideas.
I have shot my rifled 7 mag and recovered the bullets. None of them have any signs of grooves. I have also recovered spent civil wat minie' balls. None of these have grooves either. I'm leaning on someone was testing new ideas.
jayreef
Elite Member
Hi Marc - thanks , one of the joys of being based at a college
Hi Wrangler - that is one good point, I live in the the middle of a large farming area, one thing is for sure - if it broken : fix it yourself, if it's not quite what you need : fix it yourself , if it Can be adapted in any way : do it yourself maybe get someone to help
in other words, because I am sure people do not change that much and necessity is the mother of all invention, we might never know
Hi Wrangler - that is one good point, I live in the the middle of a large farming area, one thing is for sure - if it broken : fix it yourself, if it's not quite what you need : fix it yourself , if it Can be adapted in any way : do it yourself maybe get someone to help
in other words, because I am sure people do not change that much and necessity is the mother of all invention, we might never know
tabdog
Elite Member
It is obvious to me that those marks are not rifleing.
I still see a person for what ever reason, making
those marks.
Those had to be put there on purpose. There is no
way rifleing could make those marks.
Look and you will not find one on the internet.
Happy Huntin,
I still see a person for what ever reason, making
those marks.
Those had to be put there on purpose. There is no
way rifleing could make those marks.
Look and you will not find one on the internet.
Happy Huntin,
tabdog
Elite Member
The reason I know those are not marks made by rifleing is
because rifleing cuts the grooves. That is because it is forced
in a direction.
Those marks were made by a downward pressure. It shows
clear signs of downward pressure. But it shows no signs of
those marks being sheared or cut in any way.
It even looks as though they had to mark it more than once
in some cuts. How else would that happen? Not by a rifle.
It is obvious to me.
Happy Huntin,
because rifleing cuts the grooves. That is because it is forced
in a direction.
Those marks were made by a downward pressure. It shows
clear signs of downward pressure. But it shows no signs of
those marks being sheared or cut in any way.
It even looks as though they had to mark it more than once
in some cuts. How else would that happen? Not by a rifle.
It is obvious to me.
Happy Huntin,
Rammjäger
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2007
- Messages
- 4,173
Look closely and you will see these kind of marks are left by
the so called "Ratchet Rifling Profile" / Canted Land Rifling....
Obviously this gun war a target rifle for precision shooting.
SEABEE1931
Full Member
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 100
My friend, you have hit on the head what I was going to send. Very good ad thanks. Seabee1931
Alan Applegate
Junior Member
Let's look at this a little deeper.
First, the 'grease' was used to help prevent fouling of the barrel by the black powder residue, and nothing more. The sealing of the gases occurs as a result of obturation of the projectile, whatever that projectile may be.
The fact that the ball is round, has little to do with its possible military use. One has to remember, that late in the war, the South's resources were running very low. There is documented proof about the use of round rifle shot, before, during, and towards the last of the war, primarily by the South.
The example in question, has about 12 to 14 land marks, along with what appears to be a ram mark. Considering that the vast majority of Civil War rifles had 2, 4, 5 and sometimes 6 lands, it appears this example is from a much later period. In fact, other than it's appearance of age, it could have been fired last month.
Having grown up in a sporting goods store, I've done my fair share of black powder shooting. I never used anything but ball shot.
Alan Applegate
First, the 'grease' was used to help prevent fouling of the barrel by the black powder residue, and nothing more. The sealing of the gases occurs as a result of obturation of the projectile, whatever that projectile may be.
The fact that the ball is round, has little to do with its possible military use. One has to remember, that late in the war, the South's resources were running very low. There is documented proof about the use of round rifle shot, before, during, and towards the last of the war, primarily by the South.
The example in question, has about 12 to 14 land marks, along with what appears to be a ram mark. Considering that the vast majority of Civil War rifles had 2, 4, 5 and sometimes 6 lands, it appears this example is from a much later period. In fact, other than it's appearance of age, it could have been fired last month.
Having grown up in a sporting goods store, I've done my fair share of black powder shooting. I never used anything but ball shot.
Alan Applegate
Voriax
Forum Supporter
Alan, good post except that this bullet was found in the UK. Thus your comments about South's resource situation don't really apply in this case 
For these rifling marks to appear you'd either need to have a breech loading gun or for some reason use an oversized bullet without a patch in a muzzleloader. The former are extremely rare in this calibre...actually when they started to appear various types of conical bullets were already in wide-spread use.
As for the latter, I know that some people did this kind of loading, even fairly recently. At least in this part of the world black powder shooting was sort of 're-invented' some decades ago and there was a school of believers that you have to use an oversized unpatched bullet and hammer it down the barrel. Using this method you'd have fairly prominent rifling marks.
15 grooves in a handgun is also rare..even in modern times. I kinda agree that whatever weapon produced this it was a custom made piece.
Voriax
For these rifling marks to appear you'd either need to have a breech loading gun or for some reason use an oversized bullet without a patch in a muzzleloader. The former are extremely rare in this calibre...actually when they started to appear various types of conical bullets were already in wide-spread use.
As for the latter, I know that some people did this kind of loading, even fairly recently. At least in this part of the world black powder shooting was sort of 're-invented' some decades ago and there was a school of believers that you have to use an oversized unpatched bullet and hammer it down the barrel. Using this method you'd have fairly prominent rifling marks.
15 grooves in a handgun is also rare..even in modern times. I kinda agree that whatever weapon produced this it was a custom made piece.
Voriax
