An event that spurred me to my stance:

[Tom_in_CA]

You knew when you had to squeeze through the fence that was there to keep you out that you weren't supposed to be there. .....

Technically ? Yes. In fact, the minute you or I seek to be in compliance with every single law, is the day you might as well give up the hobby now (or stick to private property with permission). For example, are you aware that every single park, school, beach, campground, etc... will all have some verbage that dis-allows "harvesting", "collecting", "taking", etc.. ? Or how about damage and defacement? And do you report profits on your income taxes (to be in compliance with tax laws). How about lost & found laws, do you dutifully trot down to the police dept. with each ring that exceed $100 in value ?

I guess what I'm trying to say R-savage, is that yes, you're technically right. But so too can you not cite for me a single public place you currently metal detect, and ..... give me 5 minutes, and I can find someone in that entity to say "no", and also find laws you are technically breaking.

Believe me, I certainly wish it weren't that way. I certainly wish public places had signs saying "metal detecting, taking, digging, etc... welcome here". But alas, I do not think we are about to see that day coming

 

[Jason in Enid]

I don't think it is cool at all to trespass on property you know to be private just because there is no No Trespassing signs.. From what I understand from a Police Chief friend of mine... A person may not be able to be ticketed for trespassing on property if it isn't posted, but it is definitely morally wrong to do so.

The thing that FAR TOO MANY detectorists don't understand is the definition of trespass. If I walk into your yard and stand there, I may or may not be guilty of trespass based on your local laws. If I walk past a "no trespassing" sign or have been told in the past not to be there, then I would definitely be guilty of the minor crime of trespass.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING! When a person enters non-permissioned private land with a detector and digging tools you have now committed trespass with intent to commit theft. When you then dig a target, you now have committed burglary and vandalism. When you take that target and put it in your pocket you just committed theft. Based on the value of the target, and local laws, the value could mean you just committed felony theft.

THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE CASE OF "TRESPASS".

 

[GKman]

The thing that FAR TOO MANY detectorists don't understand is the definition of trespass. If I walk into your yard and stand there, I may or may not be guilty of trespass based on your local laws. If I walk past a "no trespassing" sign or have been told in the past not to be there, then I would definitely be guilty of the minor crime of trespass.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING! When a person enters non-permissioned private land with a detector and digging tools you have now committed trespass with intent to commit theft. When you then dig a target, you now have committed burglary and vandalism. When you take that target and put it in your pocket you just committed theft. Based on the value of the target, and local laws, the value could mean you just committed felony theft.

THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE CASE OF "TRESPASS".

You are absolutely right. Most any property owner that finds someone on their land that isn't supposed to be there is going to say first and foremost THEY ARE TRESPASSING regardless of legal definitions or local laws and whatever else they are doing while on the land.

Your more in depth followup is good. My friend the Chief is a cop not a lawyer, and I only asked him a simple question worded as such "does no trespassing signs means that you can wander on a piece of land and not really be charged with something". Adding more context to the question gives a better answer in our conversation here and ALSO should give a lot of people something to think about the next time they wander onto a piece of property with no "No Trespassing" signs posted.

 

[Esky]

I liked your story Tom... thanks for sharing.

 

[CoiltoSoil]

I agree, if it's a public place just go for it, permission will usually be denied if asked simply because at these government owned locations no one will want to take on the responsibility or liability of giving you permission. If someone ask you to leave then do so, but in my experience at public places such as schools no one has cared, and if anything employees have asked if I've found anything good. Everyone has their moral views on this but for public places such as the instance you listed it would be legal as you were not breaking any laws.

 

[johnmusk]

One thing I want to say about construction fences. The reason they are installed is twofold.

1. Protect the public from getting hurt.
2. Protect the owner from getting sued.

Once you pass the fence, the owner is no longer liable if you get injured. The reason nobody bothers you is because everybody has gone home. If you tried that just before they got in their cars and left you would probably be scolded and more than likely arrested. I'm not saying I would not try it, but there are repercussions if you get caught .

 

[Mntnclmbr]

Hmmmm
Does victimless crime come to mind??
That seems to be the difference in the possibilities cited.

In a situation like this, having been a supervisor of a utility, I'd rather just not be asked as long as safety was not an issue.

Sorry, I agree with Tom.

 

[TreasurdiggrNY]

And he opened up his apron to show me all the silver he was finding!
Well that was all the torture I could take ! I promptly went back to my truck, got my metal detector, and joined in the fray.

Jealousy is the cousin of greed, when you focus on what you want you've lose sight of what you need.

 

[johnmusk]

Blah, wanting to find treasure has nothing to do with greed.

 

[stewart73]

Tom I gotta hand it to you...you managed to get yet another permission thread going.

 

[GKman]

He is relentless!

 

[montanamuzik]

I only ask permission if there is a sign up that states no detecting / no trespassing. Other than that I go for it until I'm told to leave; if I'm told.

If there are no signs, or if it's public property, I cant see anything worse than being told "you have to leave".

I believe if there is no sign that states that I should not be there, I should be there.

Whew! Private property too? Not sure about the laws there but private property does not have to be posted here. Folks have been shot for being where they didn't have permission to be

Furthermore, I would feel extremely guilty for trespassing on private property I did not have permission to hunt. It's not my property, I do not own it, maintain it, pay taxes on it and I am not the one that worked my behind off to purchase it therefore it is not mine to use unless I am granted permission from that person.

In my opinion not much different than taking a car for a spin because someone left the keys in it and wasn't using it at the time.

 

[TonyAZ]

permission

Blah -bLAH-- BLAH-----If i only detected places that i received permission to hunt-then I too wouldn't be detecting any more either-----and I sleep just fine at night--if I returned every thing that was valuable that I found----- I MIGHT FEEL GOOD DOING IT---BUT I WOULDN'T SLEEP GOOD AT NIGHT---GOOD NIGHT...................TONY AZ. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Kemper]

You knew when you had to squeeze through the fence that was there to keep you out that you weren't supposed to be there. Yiu justified it in your mind because someone else was doing it.

Justify it how you want but you KNEW through talking to them that you weren't supposed to be there. Hence the fence to keep you out...public or not. Just cause "he did it" doesn't mean you can. Hec my mama taught me that when I was 6 yrs old!

I know you like to argue.... but facts are facts and when you squeezed through the fence you knew it was wrong. Just cause its not postef doesn't mean its fair game is the point...

My examples are saying when does it stop? I mean he does it so I can too...right?

Respectfully -you claim Tom knew he wasn't suppose to be there through talking to them. I don't think that was the situation at all. Tom was waiting for their approval. Does not mean that Tom did not have a legal right to do what he did.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Respectfully -you claim Tom knew he wasn't suppose to be there through talking to them. I don't think that was the situation at all. Tom was waiting for their approval. Does not mean that Tom did not have a legal right to do what he did.

It all depends on one's definition of "legal right". But let's cut to the chase and use the "does anyone REALLY care" standard of evaluation. Let's drop the nonsense of thinking we need every last city bureaucrat to "love" us and roll out red carpets of written approval. Once we do that, and employ the "does anyone really care?" standard, then what does that do with this situation?

 

[stewart73]

It all depends on one's definition of "legal right". But let's cut to the chase and use the "does anyone REALLY care" standard of evaluation. Let's drop the nonsense of thinking we need every last city bureaucrat to "love" us and roll out red carpets of written approval. Once we do that, and employ the "does anyone really care?" standard, then what does that do with this situation?

So you're saying when in doubt about the legality of detecting a place we should always go with the assumption "nobody will care" and get diggin'? Why am I having deja vu here....oh yeah, it's because we've already discussed this 10 times already...

 

[HarveyH48]

Respectfully -you claim Tom knew he wasn't suppose to be there through talking to them. I don't think that was the situation at all. Tom was waiting for their approval. Does not mean that Tom did not have a legal right to do what he did.

Locks only keep honest people out...

In all fairness, it wasn't during daylight hours, so laws don't apply (to Tom anyway).

As with the other 14 or so "true" stories, there is a minor flaw, but he is doing a much better job (on us) with this one. Sending a letter from a group or organization, requesting free run of a construction site, for who knows how many people, wouldn't appeal to anyone. Two months they waited, with construction already begun? Where's the urgency? You'd think the further they got into the project, the lesser the chance of getting access. Pretty sure theft of tools, equipment, and materials were a concern 20 years ago, not the brightest idea to pillage a construction site. Who's the go-to guy, if stuff turns up missing?

 

[Kemper]

I don't think it is cool at all to trespass on property you know to be private just because there is no No Trespassing signs.. From what I understand from a Police Chief friend of mine... A person may not be able to be ticketed for trespassing on property if it isn't posted, but it is definitely morally wrong to do so.

I have a very nice site I detect, and one of the foundations is actually cut in half by the property boundary that I have permission to and the adjoining private property which I don't ... I have only detected half of the foundation... Yes, I take it to the extreme when it comes to private property rights.

For me it would make it doubly worse if you already had received a no answer and then went anyway...

Agree on both counts.----- As far as the morally right argument goes,Neither would I think it would be right to go on someones private property even if could find a legal loophole to do so. Public,City,County property is mine,although not mine alone, and I like metal detector people and I like seeing them on my property. More so if I got there first.

 

[Kemper]

Locks only keep honest people out...

In all fairness, it wasn't during daylight hours, so laws don't apply (to Tom anyway).

As with the other 14 or so "true" stories, there is a minor flaw, but he is doing a much better job (on us) with this one. Sending a letter from a group or organization, requesting free run of a construction site, for who knows how many people, wouldn't appeal to anyone. Two months they waited, with construction already begun? Where's the urgency? You'd think the further they got into the project, the lesser the chance of getting access. Pretty sure theft of tools, equipment, and materials were a concern 20 years ago, not the brightest idea to pillage a construction site. Who's the go-to guy, if stuff turns up missing?

There is a big difference between retrieving dropped articles and pillaging a construction site. If I was walking by there and spotted a twenty dollar bill laying within reach i would pick it up but I wouldn't grab the hammer next to it. If I was reaching for it and the wind blew it behind the fence I would probably go after it. If I thought there were other dropped articles behind that fence I would try to legally retrieve them regardless if a fence was there for a reason other than to keep anyone from retrieving lost articles.

 

[HarveyH48]

There is a big difference between retrieving dropped articles and pillaging a construction site. If I was walking by there and spotted a twenty dollar bill laying within reach i would pick it up but I wouldn't grab the hammer next to it. If I was reaching for it and the wind blew it behind the fence I would probably go after it. If I thought there were other dropped articles behind that fence I would try to legally retrieve them regardless if a fence was there for a reason other than to keep anyone from retrieving lost articles.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you would take construction related stuff from a site. I was trying to make the point that there are non-detecting people, who do raid construction sites. Some, just for scraps, others for anything they can carry off. A guy with a metal detector is going to spend more than a couple of minutes there, and will leave a few less than perfect plugs. The construction crew would only know stuff was missing, people were squeezing in past the fence, and dug a few holes. Depending on what went missing, or how big a problem, one or more might consider taking up watch. Video cameras are cheap and easy to setup these days as well. The treasure isn't worth potential hassles, least for me.