Minelab Manticore

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

Crumble said:
The big thing you guys are missing, is with a detector such as the Legend, you can't just Disc out Ferrous. You have to disc out the low target ID's (11 and lower), which the software assumes are iron by default. As someone who mainly hunts for gold, that is a big no no, small gold can hit as low as 6 on the Legend.

Sure, on all detectors, small deep targets and small gold can start to read in the ferrous range. So, on something like the Legend, disc out about the ferrous range, or drop the first tone break from 10/11 down to 5, or use the All Metal Disc pattern.

Crumble · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
Sure, on all detectors, small deep targets and small gold can start to read in the ferrous range. So, on something like the Legend, disc out about the ferrous range, or drop the first tone break from 10/11 down to 5, or use the All Metal Disc pattern.

I use all metal on the Legend, because I have to to not miss gold. It is super time consuming when you get into heavy iron and have to stop and check each iron target while looking at the Ferrous Check. Anything past 6" or so doesn't even trigger the ferrous check, so I might as well use my PIs at that point and hunt by size and shape.

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

longbow62 said:
I'm excited about this detector. I think y'all are missing the difference in a strictly X/Y D2 style display and the Minelab 2d target trace. For one thing you can't see multiple targets with the D2 X/Y screen. You can see multiple targets with the 2D. Nails clearly did not come in on the center non-ferrous line. They were above and below. No you won't be able to tell what non-ferrous material the target is with the Manticore, but you can't with any other detector either. I think it will be the best at visually distinguishing iron from non-ferrous. I think the 2D target trace will give you much more information than just the X/Y screen on the D2.

Hi Longbow,

I'm really not sure what you mean by all that.

The Manti's 2D screen is showing how much ferrous it sees, and how much nonferrous it sees. The Manti does it by showing blobs, the Legend does it by bars, the D2 does it with lines, and the CTX does it with numbers. All 4 of those detectors are showing the same thing, but just representing it a little differently. What one is "easier", is subjective.

Regardless, for an experienced detectorist, it's pretty easy to tell when there is ferrous under the coil, so I don't see how it's all that important anyway. What's important for most sites, is the detector's ability to unmask and separate.

Detector,

I found that Minelab tech article about the slowness of BBS and FBS, as well as the importance of unmasking and separating:

https://www.minelab.com/usa/communi...tector has a,means three snapshots per second.

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

Crumble said:
I use all metal on the Legend, because I have to to not miss gold. It is super time consuming when you get into heavy iron and have to stop and check each iron target while looking at the Ferrous Check. Anything past 6" or so doesn't even trigger the ferrous check, so I might as well use my PIs at that point and hunt by size and shape.

What you're saying is true for all VLF detectors. That is, the deeper and/or smaller the target is, then the less accurate ANY form of target identification will be. Heck, bury a silver dollar deep enough, and it will ID as iron, whether you use a Legend, D2, Nox, Manti, or a divining rod

UT_Dave · Dec 1, 2022

My biggest hope is improved EMI mitigation over the Nox. I've got the perfect spot to test it and find out the day my Manticore arrives.

Dankowski has stated that EMI mitigation was a primary goal of the project and that the Manticore is better at EMI handling. The 50% increased power to the coil supposedly being a main ingredient. Which makes sense - increasing the signal in the S/N ratio.

If EMI handling is improved by a noticeable, meaningful amount, that will "open up" some spots for me. The spot I'm going to test that at being one of them. We'll see... I have hopes, but not expectations...

The 2D screen, I'm just "meh" about. Maybe it will be useful, I hope so, but I won't really care if it isn't. The Signagraph on my XLT was quite useful at times, if the Manti 2D screen is as useful as that, and I bet it is, I'll take it as a nice feature to have. If it's more useful than the Signagraph was, well hey bonus!

But I hunt by ear, not by looking at the screen, and the audio looks to be much improved over the Nox. And, the Manti use BTE, which means I'll have tons of low latency wireless choices in the coming months. That's actually kind of a big deal to me. I've never found an AtpX choice that I really like that much. I hate the headphones that come with the Nox.

Ergonomics look better, build quality way better, water proofing supposed to be much better.

Speed should be significantly improved over the Nox. Processing algorithms should be a full generation improved over the Nox. That's nothing but good.

Coil selection is going to be slim. I'll have the 8x5.5 elliptical as soon as it ships and hope it is good enough for a small coil choice. But I'd sure like more choices...

Bottom line, I'm not in any way, shape, or form expecting a "game changer". That's just silly. But I very much expect a machine with a lot of nice improvements over the Nox and I can't see what's not to love about that.

And I get a new machine to learn and have fun with! Win!

- Dave

Cherry Picker · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
Detector,

I found that Minelab tech article about the slowness of BBS and FBS, as well as the importance of unmasking and separating:

https://www.minelab.com/usa/communi...tector has a,means three snapshots per second.

I do agree the BBS/FBS does require a slower swing speed, but I have found it to still be very effective at "unmasking" targets. I use my results as evidence. I have been back to the locations where my E-Trac cherry-picked the goods and wasn't impressed by the lack of finds. I think a properly set & used FBS can do a very good job.

Also, I see people talk about being able to tell the ferrous from conductive, but the videos I've seen still show a fair depth limitation on accuracy. Once you get down to 8" or so I have yet to see any videos showing the new tech able to do any better. I don't want to prejudge the Manticore, but the videos have not shown it to do much better than the others. I still hold hope. Cream ALWAYS seems to rise to the top.

longbow62 · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
Hi Longbow,

I'm really not sure what you mean by all that.

The Manti's 2D screen is showing how much ferrous it sees, and how much nonferrous it sees. The Manti does it by showing blobs, the Legend does it by bars, the D2 does it with lines, and the CTX does it with numbers. All 4 of those detectors are showing the same thing, but just representing it a little differently. What one is "easier", is subjective.

Regardless, for an experienced detectorist, it's pretty easy to tell when there is ferrous under the coil, so I don't see how it's all that important anyway. What's important for most sites, is the detector's ability to unmask and separate.

Detector,

I found that Minelab tech article about the slowness of BBS and FBS, as well as the importance of unmasking and separating:

https://www.minelab.com/usa/communi...tector has a,means three snapshots per second.

How does the X/Y screen on the D2 show multiple items per sweep. It can't. How does the X/Y screen on a D2 show you the roundness or shape of a target visually? You you want to see a bunch of lines in the case of D2, or dots or blobs. Long items on the Manticore tend to show length on the screen depending on what direction you swing over them. I bet thats hard to decipher on a D2 X/Y. 2 items very close together on a Manticore 2D will tell you that much easier compared to D2 X/Y.

I don't see how anyone can argue the 2D of the Manticore does not tell you more than a X/Y screen on an XP detector.

harleyhummer65 · Dec 1, 2022

longbow62 said:
How does the X/Y screen on the D2 show multiple items per sweep. It can't. How does the X/Y screen on a D2 show you the roundness or shape of a target visually? You you want to see a bunch of lines in the case of D2, or dots or blobs. Long items on the Manticore tend to show length on the screen depending on what direction you swing over them. I bet thats hard to decipher on a D2 X/Y. 2 items very close together on a Manticore 2D will tell you that much easier compared to D2 X/Y.

I don't see how anyone can argue the 2D of the Manticore does not tell you more than a X/Y screen on an XP detector.

I agree.
The new Equinox models, and their new features are very tempting, but the 2D screen on the Manticore is, in my opinion, well worth the increase in price.

UT_Dave · Dec 1, 2022

I don't think the Manti 2D screen is going to convey "shape". I think it's just ID plots.

If it actually shows ID separate plots of multiple targets under the coil at once, though, that will be pretty darn cool. Some of the videos make it look like it does. But that could just be decay rate. Not sure. And no manual available yet. Sigh...

I still don't see it as a really big deal either way. And not a factor at all in my deciding to order a Manticore. Just a nice bonus if it turns out to be more useful and cool than I'm expecting.

But, if it were actually able to convey shape? That would be an honest to goodness game changer. I don't think it does though. Nothing I've seen or read has indicated that.

- Dave

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

longbow62 said:
How does the X/Y screen on the D2 show multiple items per sweep. It can't. How does the X/Y screen on a D2 show you the roundness or shape of a target visually? You you want to see a bunch of lines in the case of D2, or dots or blobs. Long items on the Manticore tend to show length on the screen depending on what direction you swing over them.

Given that you used the terms "roundness" and "shape", I don't think the Manti's 2D screen works the way you think it does. You seem to think it is "imaging" or showing an outline of the target. With current technology, an imaging detector costs about $10,000 dollars, and it doesn't even come close to having enough resolution to image something as small as a nail.

What's most likely occurring with the Manti, is that with a non-symmetrical target like a nail, the ID is not solid, but rather has a range. Since the range is being displayed, it ends up looking like an elongated line, instead of a round blob like a symmetrical coin would produce. That "line" would also be produced by the regular target ID jumping between numbers such as -74-75-76-77, and can also be seen in the Discrimination scale.

EDIT:

Dave posted as I was typing this. Yes, it's just an ID plotter with a decay. It's really not doing anything ground breaking, nor is it going to allow you to find more treasure. It's just eye candy.

UT_Dave · Dec 1, 2022

I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised. But what I've been able to see and read so far on the 2D display, I'm not sure it's going to equal the Whites Signagraph on the XLT I was using in the 90s. The Signagraph not only showed all the ID's being received, but the relative strength of each. You could actually configure it in several ways. But the way I ran it, the distribution and relative strength of the ID's shown made it pretty simple to confidently identify common trash items - regardless of the number shown.

- Dave

Rattlehead · Dec 1, 2022

I suspect it’s going to be very similar to the Target Trace we’ve been using for years on the CTX. If so, then yes, it can show multiple targets as the coil passes over them. You can see when you have two targets of different conductivity close together. It also gives some visual info about target size. Don’t expect to see any identifiable shapes or anything like that, but Target Trace is definitely a useful tool.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

Rattlehead said:
You can see when you have two targets of different conductivity close together.

What's plotted is based on conductivity, not how "close together" the targets are.

For example, if you have a nickel and silver quarter under the coil, you'll see a blob on the far left of the nonferrous line for the nickel, and a blob on the far right of the nonferrous line for the silver quarter. At the same time, the regular target ID number will quickly alternate between a nickel ID and a silver quarter ID, and you'll hear 2 separate tones (like you would with any screen based metal detector). It seems to me that hearing the 2 tones, and seeing the ID number alternate between 2 numbers, is a more efficient identification method, then blobs on a line.

longbow62 · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
What's plotted is based on conductivity, not how "close together" the targets are.

For example, if you have a nickel and silver quarter under the coil, you'll see a blob on the far left of the nonferrous line for the nickel, and a blob on the far right of the nonferrous line for the silver quarter. At the same time, the regular target ID number will quickly alternate between a nickel ID and a silver quarter ID, and you'll hear 2 separate tones (like you would with any screen based metal detector). It seems to me that hearing the 2 tones, and seeing the ID number alternate between 2 numbers, is a more efficient identification method, then blobs on a line.

Okay I relent to your greater wisdom. The 2D screen is a utterly useless piece of fluff.

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

longbow62 said:
Okay I relent to your greater wisdom. The 2D screen is a utterly useless piece of fluff.

Look at this way, if you just had the 2D screen, but no tones, and no target ID numbers, you would be like, "I want the tones and target ID numbers back, because they give me more information about the target than blobs on a line do". Numbers and tones give you something solid, and something you can relate to.

Blobs on a line are much too vague compared to tones and target ID numbers.

Rattlehead · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
What's plotted is based on conductivity, not how "close together" the targets are.

For example, if you have a nickel and silver quarter under the coil, you'll see a blob on the far left of the nonferrous line for the nickel, and a blob on the far right of the nonferrous line for the silver quarter. At the same time, the regular target ID number will quickly alternate between a nickel ID and a silver quarter ID, and you'll hear 2 separate tones (like you would with any screen based metal detector). It seems to me that hearing the 2 tones, and seeing the ID number alternate between 2 numbers, is a more efficient identification method, then blobs on a line.

Digalicious,
I’m fully aware that Target Trace doesn’t show you how close the targets are to each other and yes, I know the plot is based on conductivity. When I said targets that are close together, I simply meant targets that were near enough to be swept across at the same time with one pass of the coil. Keep in mind, I’m speaking about a detector that I actually have lots of experience using.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

Rattlehead said:
Digalicious,
I’m fully aware that Target Trace doesn’t show you how close the targets are to each other and yes, I know the plot is based on conductivity.

Ok, fair enough. It was just that the wording you used made it seem like it was plotting based on conductivity and distance

Well regardless, no one has yet been able to describe how blobs are better identifiers than actual numbers and/or tones.

longbow62 · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
Look at this way, if you just had the 2D screen, but no tones, and no target ID numbers, you would be like, "I want the tones and target ID numbers back, because they give me more information about the target than blobs on a line do". Numbers and tones give you something solid, and something you can relate to.

Blobs on a line are much too vague compared to tones and target ID numbers.

There are times when audio or I.D. does not give you a true representation of what you are swinging over. Like a nail close to a coin. So the tone is not great and the number is not representative of a target you want to dig. The 2D screen shows you an iron target is co-mingled with a non-ferrous. Sometimes 2 non-ferrous items are close enough one pulls the other down and you could get a say an aluminum twist off I.D.. The 2D would show you a longer smear on the non-ferrous line cluing you in to possibly 2 targets there instead of just one. It's just more info. The more info the better.

Let's say I have pulled all the easy targets out of a site. Now I'm left with not hunting it or going back over it looking for iffy type things. I think the with the examples I gave above you might pull a few more good targets by having an extra clue to go by. Nothing is ever certain, but you have another piece of info to dig it or not.

Rattlehead · Dec 1, 2022

Digalicious said:
Well regardless, no one has yet been able to describe how blobs are better identifiers than actual numbers and/or tones.

I don’t think anyone is saying Target Trace is better than numbers or tones. It’s simply another bit of info that can be used in conjunction with the numbers and tones. More info is always better than less.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Diga · Dec 1, 2022

longbow62 said:
There are times when audio or I.D. does not give you a true representation of what you are swinging over. Like a nail close to a coin. So the tone is not great and the number is not representative of a target you want to dig. The 2D screen shows you an iron target is co-mingled with a non-ferrous. Sometimes 2 non-ferrous items are close enough one pulls the other down and you could get a say an aluminum twist off I.D.. The 2D would show you a longer smear on the non-ferrous line cluing you in to possibly 2 targets there instead of just one. It's just more info. The more info the better.

I see what you're trying to get at, but it seems you're saying that the 2D is showing something that the regular ID can't show. I really don't think that's the way it works.

In your example of the 2 nonferrous items, if one of the nonferrous targets pulls the other target down, then it's a combined signal which should only produce 1 target ID number, and 1 blob on the nonferrous line.

I'm thinking the only time a smear would appear is for complex targets such as targets that have both ferrous and nonferrous attributes. More specifically, ferrous targets that produce a range of ID's (like 74-75-76), which would then show up as a smear. Conversely, I don't think a smear would appear on nonferrous targets due them having only 1 attribute, and generally only 1 ID.

Well, anyway, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what that screen does when more than one target is under the coil. I think we can both agree to that

Minelab Manticore

Diga

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Crumble

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Cherry Picker

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