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High ringing pennies

sube

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
433
Years Material Weight
(grains) Weight
(grams)
1793–1795 ~100% copper 208 grains 13.48
1795–1857 † ~100% copper 168 grains 10.89
1856–1864 88% copper, 12% nickel (also known as NS-12) 72 grains 4.67
1864–1942 bronze (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc) 48 grains 3.11
1943 zinc-coated steel (also known as 1943 steel cent) 42 grains 2.72
1944–1946 gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc) 48 grains 3.11
1947–1962 bronze (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc) 48 grains 3.11
1962 – September 1982 gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc) 48 grains 3.11
October 1982 – present copper-plated zinc (97.5% zinc, 2.5% copper) 38.6 grains 2.5

Why you should not cherry pick dimes and pennies , Your in a spot digging wheats in the 30s to 50s there all ID very close a point or 2 either way then you hit a signal that IDs 4 to 5 points higher (YOUR THINKING DIME ) but dig up a wheat or memorial and scratch your head and say hum .
Looking at the chart above we see 44 to 46 have 5 percent zinc in them also 62 to 82 have 5 percent zinc (THESE ARE THE HIGH RINGERS) They read as a clad dime nox will read the clad dime same as the penny ID 25 .

Going back to the 44 to 46 they made a lot of these as you can see 62 is a year you can get a higher or lower ID it's the amount of tin in the coin .
The mint never gave the percent of how much tin to zinc that was used they probably did not know either.
Tin is a low conductor 2 point lower than iron and zinc has almost 2 times the conduction of tin so the less tin the higher the ID.

I have dug many early wheats that read indian and others that read 5 points higher on the ID scale also have dug a 45 wheat that read indian but was corroded.
Dimes seated barber and mercs , seated dmes read like dimes when not wore but most read lower because I rarely find one without wear . Now barbers will read lower than the other dimes because they wore extremely fast the first couple of years till they were only in good condition then they wore like the other dimes .Dimes well read like copper zinc pennies or lower by 2 points if wore.
Zinc coins with iron the coin well rot and the iron won't copper and silver with iron the iron rots and the coin does not.
Then again IDs change from ground mineral , ware of the coin , corroded and then trash with targets change IDs .
So dig those penny IDs you may get a bigger surprize of a dime as to scratching your head over finding a wheat or memorial .sube
 
You are the science guy for sure. Some good info there. All I know about pennies on my beaches is that they can also be gold rings. Lol
 
... So dig those penny IDs you may get a bigger surprize of a dime as to scratching your head over finding a wheat or memorial .sube

Another good reason to dig pennies...I've had a fair number of penny signals turn into thin silver rings and pendants. Just happened again yesterday!
Mike
 
Although I seldom do, there are those who like to 'Cherry pick' but they are usually after the higher-conductive Silver Dimes, Quarters, halves and rare Dollars. Seldom after half-Dimes because they read lower, and many who 'Cherry Pick' are ignoring the modern Zinc Cent due to the rapid surface decay of those coins as well as their lower VDI read-out due to lower conductivity.

Most serous Coin Hunter who Chery Pick are also going after coins in the surface to perhaps 4" range, or possibly 5" to 6" based on the site location, if any masking trash is present, and the detector they are using. Those who do 'Cheery Pick' also know that most of the better Copper Cents do have a higher conductivity reading that is similar-to, or very close to, the typical Silver Dime. It will depend a lot of the particular make and model detector used as well as the coin's depth and orientation in the ground, but most good Copper Cents and slightly smaller Silver Dimes share a very similar VDI read-out.

I'll abbreviate your post a little to point out what i determined long ago when it came to the small US 1¢ coins. Roy Lagal nd I talked about this and some other things we noticed back in February of '81 discussing VLF/TR-Disc. models two years before we had any Target ID detectors. We concluded the same thing as I will note below:


sube: said:
1864–1942 bronze (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc)
This group of coins include the change in Indian Head 1¢ coins from 1864 thru 1909, and the Wheat-back Cents starting in 1909. Even way back then we had some people complain about not finding Indian Head Cents, but the main reason was they just were not selecting old-use locations where they might be. A lot of Discriminating detectors could adjust up to reject common foil, bottle caps and pull tabs, but not adjust high enough for aluminum screw caps ... but some did, and a lot of urban Coin Hunters didn't like trash so they used all the Discrimination they could.

The in '83, when we started to get our first visual Target ID units from the new Teknetics and others followed, we also had higher-adjustments for Discrimination. The average Coin Hunter used both audio and visual Discrimination to reject or try to identify trash, and 'trash' included targets that didn't ID like a good 1¢ / 10¢ coin.

Visual Target ID, especially when we have VDI number read-out, made it easy to demonstrate to others why they might not be finding Indian Head Cents and even many early Wheat-back cents. Here is what I found decades ago sampling assortments of old and new coins.

Most Indian Head Cents, from 1864 to 1909, and many of the early Wheat-Back Cents from 1909 to 'about' 1920, give or take, all show that they were made out of the same alloy mix and were the same size and shape, HOWEVER, one can sample coins today and see that those Indian Head and early Wheat-Back Cents have a somewhat LOWER VDI read-out.

The Wheat-Backs after about 1920 to the transition to Memorials in the latter '50s and on to the Zinc Cents 40-some years ago, had a much more consistent VDI read-out that was similar to most typical Silver Dimes. Even the Wheaties in the '40s made out of shell casings, etc., generally read higher. The main difference since about 1920 was the 1943 'Steel' Cent until they off-loaded those crappy Zinc cents on us.

Most Indian Head Cents and many early Wheat-Backs from 1909 to ±1920 will have a lower conductivity level and produce a VDI read-out that is closer to an average Zinc Cent.

That brings the question ..... Why?

The only good answer is that is has to do with the source or purity of the Copper combined with the foundry / processing for the final quality of the Copper being used for minting those coins.

Thus, Cherry Pickers will ignore modern Zinc Cents and coins that have a lower and similar reading to go after higher-conductive GOOD Copper cents and Silver Dimes, leaving being most Zinc and a lot of very early Wheaties and Indian Heads.

Hey, it is winter and that means cabin fever time for many. Question my findings and comments? Get a good assortment of several Indian Heads, early pre-'20 Wheaties, and a number of other Copper Cents up to the late '70s, make sure they are all in decent condition, and use as many detectors as possible with different VDI read-outs and do some bench test comparisons of your own.

Monte
 
Although I seldom do, there are those who like to 'Cherry pick' but they are usually after the higher-conductive Silver Dimes, Quarters, halves and rare Dollars. Seldom after half-Dimes because they read lower, and many who 'Cherry Pick' are ignoring the modern Zinc Cent due to the rapid surface decay of those coins as well as their lower VDI read-out due to lower conductivity.

Most serous Coin Hunter who Chery Pick are also going after coins in the surface to perhaps 4" range, or possibly 5" to 6" based on the site location, if any masking trash is present, and the detector they are using. Those who do 'Cheery Pick' also know that most of the better Copper Cents do have a higher conductivity reading that is similar-to, or very close to, the typical Silver Dime. It will depend a lot of the particular make and model detector used as well as the coin's depth and orientation in the ground, but most good Copper Cents and slightly smaller Silver Dimes share a very similar VDI read-out.

I'll abbreviate your post a little to point out what i determined long ago when it came to the small US 1¢ coins. Roy Lagal and I talked about this and some other things we noticed back in February of '81 discussing VLF/TR-Disc. models two years before we had any Target ID detectors. We concluded the same thing as I will note below:


sube: said:
1864–1942 bronze (95% copper, 5% tin and zinc)
This group of coins include the change in Indian Head 1¢ coins from 1864 thru 1909, and the Wheat-back Cents starting in 1909. Even way back then we had some people complain about not finding Indian Head Cents, but the main reason was they just were not selecting old-use locations where they might be. A lot of Discriminating detectors could adjust up to reject common foil, bottle caps and pull tabs, but not adjust high enough for aluminum screw caps ... but some did, and a lot of urban Coin Hunters didn't like trash so they used all the Discrimination they could.

The in '83, when we started to get our first visual Target ID units from the new Teknetics and others followed, we also had higher-adjustments for Discrimination. The average Coin Hunter used both audio and visual Discrimination to reject or try to identify trash, and 'trash' included targets that didn't ID like a good 1¢ / 10¢ coin.

Visual Target ID, especially when we have VDI number read-out, made it easy to demonstrate to others why they might not be finding Indian Head Cents and even many early Wheat-back cents. Here is what I found decades ago sampling assortments of old and new coins.

Most Indian Head Cents, from 1864 to 1909, and many of the early Wheat-Back Cents from 1909 to 'about' 1920, give or take, all show that they were made out of the same alloy mix and were the same size and shape, HOWEVER, one can sample coins today and see that those Indian Head and early Wheat-Back Cents have a somewhat LOWER VDI read-out.

The Wheat-Backs after about 1920 to the transition to Memorials in the latter '50s and on to the Zinc Cents 40-some years ago, had a much more consistent VDI read-out that was similar to most typical Silver Dimes. Even the Wheaties in the '40s made out of shell casings, etc., generally read higher. The main difference since about 1920 was the 1943 'Steel' Cent until they off-loaded those crappy Zinc cents on us.

Most Indian Head Cents and many early Wheat-Backs from 1909 to ±1920 will have a lower conductivity level and produce a VDI read-out that is closer to an average Zinc Cent.

That brings the question ..... Why?

The only good answer is that is has to do with the source or purity of the Copper combined with the foundry / processing for the final quality of the Copper being used for minting those coins.

Thus, Cherry Pickers will ignore modern Zinc Cents and coins that have a lower and similar reading to go after higher-conductive GOOD Copper cents and Silver Dimes, leaving being most Zinc and a lot of very early Wheaties and Indian Heads.

Hey, it is winter and that means cabin fever time for many. Question my findings and comments? Get a good assortment of several Indian Heads, early pre-'20 Wheaties, and a number of other Copper Cents up to the late '70s, make sure they are all in decent condition, and use as many detectors as possible with different VDI read-outs and do some bench test comparisons of your own.

Monte
 
Sube I agree, I've been hunting with the Equinox since the end of Feb. 2018 and you cannot ignore the penny signals. Which can be pretty aggravating when you're trying to be a little more discreet in someone's front yard. Generalizing or up averaging the penny/dime Id on the Equinox has always been my main !!!!!. It just seems to be a characteristic of multi-iq. Not understanding the then new to me machine I sent my first one back when it was Id'ing nickels at 20-22. My first signal with the replacement was a nice 33-34 deep stand alone signal, out come a 30s wheat cent. I said what the what? In the soil here in Western Pa. deeper pennies, Wheats, Ihps or Mem's will initially hit in the 30s, some the high 30s. And I've said this many times before. If you massage the signal and watch the numbers they will drop down once or twice to their respective #s. By respective #s I mean where they would register in an air test. The shallower one's usually hit where they should. And I'm talking stand alone, no co-mingled targets. So for me, Memorials come in 24-25-26 but too many times I've had a Merc or silver Rosie come in the same. So I dig em. Some say disc out 39-40, on a recent trip to my city park I had a signal that stopped me in my tracks, sweet coin signal no doubt, looked at the #s and it was 39-40 in 3 directions, never got off those #s . From about 2 1/2 3 inches down out came a 43 Merc. On rescan, nothing around it, not even an iron grunt. So IMO the Equinox is great at finding a coin,, just not able to Id it to any certainty. And again its the multi-iq. I had hoped when they announced the Legend and the D 2 , particularly the D 2 with a target spread of 0-99 would remedy that trait but so far I have not seen that. The high conductors are all sammiched into a small group just like the Equinox. I did hear the Manticore might be a little better at it. Or possibly the Equinox ll which we may hear about next week. Rumor has it. We'll see. Mark
 
Copper and silver are so close on the conductivity scale, that you could argue that they have the same conductivity. To a detector, a copper penny and silver dime are virtually indistinguishable.

Granted, copper is ever so slightly lower on the scale, but that slight gap is then closed because copper pennies are larger than silver dimes. Now add in ground effects, coin orientation, and depth, and it's basically an impossibility to cherry pick for silver coins only. Trying to do so, will be a "pennies from hell" experience :D
 
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Copper and silver are so close on the conductivity scale, that you could argue that they have the same conductivity. To a detector, a copper penny and silver dime are virtually indistinguishable.

Granted, copper is ever so slightly lower on the scale, but that slight gap is then closed because copper pennies are larger than silver dimes. Now add in ground effects, coin orientation, and depth, and it's basically an impossibility to cherry pick for silver coins only. Trying to do so, will be a "pennies from hell" experience :D

I have to disagree with you sir. Using an AT Pro or Etrac there is very little doubt as to which is which. On the AT Pro pennies are all in the 70s and a dime is almost always 81-82. The Etrac, wheats are almost always 11-43 and Mems. are 11-42. Dimes mostly 12-44 or 12-45. And although no experience with the CTX I'm told Id is even more rock solid. And again I'm told the F75 is spot on with Id as well. No, as I said in my previous post I think it an anomaly of the multi-iq. Keep in mind we are only 5 years into the technology and there are a few more tweaks to be made before its perfected. Do I hope this next release will solve this issue, absolutely but I ain't holding my breath. Mark
 
I have to disagree with you sir. Using an AT Pro or Etrac there is very little doubt as to which is which. On the AT Pro pennies are all in the 70s and a dime is almost always 81-82. The Etrac, wheats are almost always 11-43 and Mems. are 11-42. Dimes mostly 12-44 or 12-45. And although no experience with the CTX I'm told Id is even more rock solid. And again I'm told the F75 is spot on with Id as well. No, as I said in my previous post I think it an anomaly of the multi-iq. Keep in mind we are only 5 years into the technology and there are a few more tweaks to be made before its perfected. Do I hope this next release will solve this issue, absolutely but I ain't holding my breath. Mark

Great points about different detectors performing differently. I love my E-Trac for how much more target info it provides over my 'Nox and I'm hoping the Manticore might fix that. I've always wanted a waterproof or at least resistant E-Trac for those days I get caught in the rain.
 
I have to disagree with you sir. Using an AT Pro or Etrac there is very little doubt as to which is which. On the AT Pro pennies are all in the 70s and a dime is almost always 81-82. The Etrac, wheats are almost always 11-43 and Mems. are 11-42. Dimes mostly 12-44 or 12-45.

That could be true under a controlled air test. For example, the silver dime and copper penny are at the same depth and orientation as the manufacturer calibrated the detector to. In the ground though, the ID is going to be affected by ground interference, various coin orientations, and depth.

Most coins in the ground aren't laying flat, and most silver coins are deeper than the depth that the detector was calibrated to. Both of those characteristics will result in all of those coins having a lower ID compared to a controlled air test. More specifically, all of those silver dimes as described, will ID in the copper and lower range. When they're really deep, they'll begin to ID as iron, because the really weak eddy currents will produce a very low phase shift, and hence, a very low ID.

If you disc out everything lower than silver, then most silver dimes will be missed because of those characteristics causing a lower ID on those silver dimes. To get those silvers, you would have to include copper, and eventually zinc. Which of course, means digging a lot of pennies.
 
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Lincoln memorial cents on my AT Pro ring up in the 70's if they're post-1982, but many pre-1982 pennies ring up at 80 or 81, especially if the ground is saturated. Dimes do ring up at 81 or 82, though.
 
That could be true under a controlled air test. For example, the silver dime and copper penny are at the same depth and orientation as the manufacturer calibrated the detector to. In the ground though, the ID is going to be affected by ground interference, various coin orientations, and depth.

Most coins in the ground aren't laying flat, and most silver coins are deeper than the depth that the detector was calibrated to. Both of those characteristics will result in all of those coins having a lower ID compared to a controlled air test. More specifically, all of those silver dimes as described, will ID in the copper and lower range. When they're really deep, they'll begin to ID as iron, because the really weak eddy currents will produce a very low phase shift, and hence, a very low ID.

If you disc out everything lower than silver, then most silver dimes will be missed because of those characteristics causing a lower ID on those silver dimes. To get those silvers, you would have to include copper, and eventually zinc. Which of course, means digging a lot of pennies.

Ok forget controlled air tests, I only referred to the respective numbers in an air test on the Equinox. I disc out nothing, ever. With the Equinox 800 I have iron volume set at 2. I call it listening to the rhythm of the iron. At the slightest break in that rhythm I begin to investigate. In the case of the AT Pro and Etrac these are real world in the ground target IDs. Yes soil and orientation will play a big part but you can't know that until the target is dug And depth is not an issue. They in almost in every circumstance will Id correctly. And assuming it is a stand alone target with no other metal skewing the signal it will be spot on. Not the case with multi -iq. More than I want to remember I've had too many deep copper pennies signals telling me I've got a great old piece of silver just waiting to be dug. Repeat, multi-iq still needs to be refined a little more. My only point. You can state your case, but FBS and other machines put multi-iq to shame when it comes to accurate Id's. And anyone who use's these machines I'm sure will agree. YMMV
 
Great points about different detectors performing differently. I love my E-Trac for how much more target info it provides over my 'Nox and I'm hoping the Manticore might fix that. I've always wanted a waterproof or at least resistant E-Trac for those days I get caught in the rain.

I'm with you on that Robby. I used to carry a gallon zip lock baggie in the event of a heavy down pour. Getting older the Etrac was just getting to heavy to swing for extended hunts. I will say hunting with the Etrac my coin count went way up, but my cool finds not so much. You know the ones that lay in those not so perfect numbers. The Equinox challenges you in that respect and sometimes pays off nicely. And I'm with you hoping the Manticore will help with the Id's a little more. The 2 d screen should be a big factor in that regard. Great times ahead I think. Good luck. Mark
 
Ok forget controlled air tests, I only referred to the respective numbers in an air test on the Equinox. I disc out nothing, ever. With the Equinox 800 I have iron volume set at 2. I call it listening to the rhythm of the iron. At the slightest break in that rhythm I begin to investigate. In the case of the AT Pro and Etrac these are real world in the ground target IDs. Yes soil and orientation will play a big part but you can't know that until the target is dug And depth is not an issue. They in almost in every circumstance will Id correctly. And assuming it is a stand alone target with no other metal skewing the signal it will be spot on. Not the case with multi -iq. More than I want to remember I've had too many deep copper pennies signals telling me I've got a great old piece of silver just waiting to be dug. Repeat, multi-iq still needs to be refined a little more. My only point. You can state your case, but FBS and other machines put multi-iq to shame when it comes to accurate Id's. And anyone who use's these machines I'm sure will agree. YMMV
I agree what your saying ctx e-trac and explorers all (ID) at depth ) even coins on edge one way ID right the other no but still tells me whats down there . Now the nox biggest problem I have seen is it's wishy washy ID I have dug pennies that read up to 38 ID is just not there on this machine .
Hopefully the manticore does get the ID from the ctx as they say . The problem with all the fast machines out there is there ID if there is no ID why dig your just guessing .
It seems the deus 2 ID was improved maybe that's why people are finding things they missed .
I am sure minelab has a deus 2 and no what it does I have a feeling the manticores ID will be a much more improvement over the deus 2 we shall see.
If the nox was such a good machine why am I still swinging a boat anchor . :hornetsnest: sube
 
My only point. You can state your case, but FBS and other machines put multi-iq to shame when it comes to accurate Id's. And anyone who use's these machines I'm sure will agree. YMMV

Yes, FBS and BBS are well known for better ID at depth, but all those transmitted and processed frequencies come at a cost. That cost is high battery consumption (large and heavy battery), and poor recovery speed.

Regardless, my point is that any detector (including FBS and BBS), will begin to ID targets with lower numbers, as the target gets deeper. Which is why most deep silver coins in the ground will be missed if ID's below silver are notched out or ignored.
 
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I'm with you on that Robby. I used to carry a gallon zip lock baggie in the event of a heavy down pour. Getting older the Etrac was just getting to heavy to swing for extended hunts. I will say hunting with the Etrac my coin count went way up, but my cool finds not so much. You know the ones that lay in those not so perfect numbers. The Equinox challenges you in that respect and sometimes pays off nicely. And I'm with you hoping the Manticore will help with the Id's a little more. The 2 d screen should be a big factor in that regard. Great times ahead I think. Good luck. Mark

I had the rain cover for my E-Trac but it got the machine too hot to leave it on when it wasn't raining in NW Florida. So I started carrying it in my hip pocket but eventually it started ruining the clear plastic so it got left home and I'd just carry a garbage bag or a gallon Ziploc. That E-Trac was a coin magnet for me, Silver rings and Necklaces too but it kinda lacked on the Gold (maybe there just wasn't any there?) I'm not (or at least wasn't) a big artifact guy, but now I'm getting more into that and my MX Sport is far better than my E-Trac in that department (at least in MY hands) The Equinox seems to fit in between those two machines doing very well but not as good as either in their respective areas. Let's see how the Manticore does... one downside for the Manticore for me though is it appears to NOT have a threshold tone option and I'm big on using that threshold... :(
 
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