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  #41  
Old 05-10-2022, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Federal laws apply IF there are no state laws to cover? My understanding is this protection of archeological sites covers public land also.

No. ARPA (federal law) does not subrogate downwards to lower level entities (state, county, city, private).

That's not to say that individual states might not ALSO have some cultural heritage verbiage in their *own* state park park wording. Which, likewise, would not necessarily subrogate down to county or city level.

A lower/sub-entity might reference ARPA, to be included *by specific mention*. But not, it is not OF NECESSITY subrogated downwards, simply because the state (and city, and county) are sub-components of the larger fed. It's not like murder, theft, etc... where, sure, a city doesn't need to "outlaw murder", in order to make murder wrong.

Because, think of it : Take a quick look at our show & tell sections, on any md'ing forums. Correct me if I'm wrong, but : You will see no shortage of 101+ yr. old coins being shown as bragging rights among our ranks. Right ? And we even say things like "found in the park" or "found on the beach", etc.... Eh ?

If ARPA automatically subrogated downwards, then ..... are we to conclude that every single one of these posts is a violation of law ?
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  #42  
Old 05-10-2022, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
.... IF there are no state laws to cover?.....
And I do not know what you mean by this. What do you mean : If there are no state laws to cover ? Do you mean if a particular state's park dept was "silent on the subject" (neither expressly forbids, or allows ?)

But either way, no : The silence, or express allowance, or express incorporation, or express dis-allowance, have no bearing on whether or not ARPA subrogates downwards.

Because if what you are saying is true, then ...... heck ..... why would there be any need for ANY state to have its own state park rules ? Why is there any need for any county to have county park rules ? Why is there any need for any city to have city park rules ? Because if federal park rules "subrogate downwards", then there would never have been any need for states, counties, and cities to make their own muni codes, ordinances, park rules, etc....

Yet as we see, every single city, county, and state, does indeed have its own laws and statutes. Oh sure, they may incorporate the higher level verbiage *by specific inclusion* (as in the case of murder, for example). But no, not every park rule subrogates downwards from higher entity levels (fed) to lower level. Park rules (or lack-there-of- aka, silent on issues) differ all the time between various parks.
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  #43  
Old 05-10-2022, 12:08 PM
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This post is exhausting. Tom is correct....but so is darn near every response.

I have a firm that specializes in antiquities and acquisitions. 90% of their cases result in the good(s) awarded to their client. The other 10% are settled out of court and/or with their client walking away with a healthy check for training, equipment, time, and services to acquire the object(s).

Why? It all boils down to interpreting law (and case law) that favors your situation. A knowledgeable attorney can effectively communicate applicable law with a judge's final decision that lets you go on your merry way ...so long has they get their slice of the pie.



Reference: image courtesy of https://florinroebig.com/ and of course, always feel free to ask them about questions.

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  #44  
Old 05-10-2022, 12:16 PM
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Then I had it wrong. I thought if there is no local state law then the federal law covers it. So you're saying every state has had to pass its own law on murder? What happens if there is no state law, the act is no longer a crime in that state?

I was under the impression picking up and taking any relic that meets the definition of having archeological value was illegal be it on federal, state, or private property? Anyway, that is the way it was interpreted by most detectorists back in the old days. I remember people saying this new law just made us all criminals.

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  #45  
Old 05-10-2022, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Trash apron? I'll stick to my Garrett pouch, thank you!
They are talking about those nail aprons a buddy of mine uses one he must have followed the advice

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  #46  
Old 05-10-2022, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Funny that you put it that way. My long-time hunt partner sometimes asks me: "Why do you care ? Doesn't that just mean more for us ? ". And in a way, you and him are right.

Still though, the psychology and evolution of it fascinates me (to a fault, I know )

Tom... a number of years ago I went to a historic park.. was going to detect in the woods where there was a cellar hole... a park ranger came up to me telling me I could detect but I could not cut the grass with any digging instruments... whatever... I said how do I recover a target she said its surface finds only... I said well can I dig in the woods she said have at it... she was cute to

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  #47  
Old 05-10-2022, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
Then I had it wrong. I thought if there is no local state law then the federal law covers it. So you're saying every state has had to pass its own law on murder? What happens if there is no state law, the act is no longer a crime in that state?

I was under the impression picking up and taking any relic that meets the definition of having archeological value was illegal be it on federal, state, or private property? Anyway, that is the way it was interpreted by most detectorists back in the old days. I remember people saying this new law just made us all criminals.
I don't know why murder is illegal EVEN if my city laws haven't repeated "Murder is illegal". If I agree with you that the city-law need not repeat the law (ie.: Can be silent on the issue), yet that would merely mean that : Silence on a legal issue means: Federal (or county or state) which is above city, takes effect.

Maybe we have some lawyers here that can answer your question.

And another bugaboo : What if a city enacted a law that was LIGHTER and LESS RESTRICTIVE than state or federal law ? For example : Can my city make a law saying "murder is legal " ? Does that therefore supersede federal law, allowing me to murder my neighbor ?

Obviously not. Obviously the "STRICTER LAW" prevails. Right ? Ok then, to use your logic, then sure : A "stricter law" in this case (ARPA and 100 yr. old language) therefore prevails over my city park rules. Eh ?

Ok then, you tell me : Why are our md'ing forum show & tell sections filled with bragging rights of old coins ? And the guys gleefully say "found in a park" or "found at the beach", etc... ?

Are we all lawless miscreants ?
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  #48  
Old 05-11-2022, 03:05 PM
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Some GA lawyer posted this code.

Georgia Law O.C.G.A.
A person commits the offense of theft of lost or mislaid property when he comes into control of property that he knows or learns to have been lost or mislaid and appropriates the property to his own use without first taking reasonable measures to restore the property to the owner.

Ok, I find civil war bullets in a public park. The original owner was either the Union or Confederate Army. Ok, I might have trouble contacting the Confederate Army and I rather think the US Army does not give a rats A** about those lost bullets.

So If I don't take reasonable measures to restore the property to the Union Army I am guilty of theft?

I bet 99% of law enforcement officers in GA have never heard of that code and probably don't give a hoot about what we are doing when metal detecting in GA. Been detecting for many, many years on only a few curious citizens ask if I found anything and they are just being polite.

On a side note, the law enforcement officers in California might just start demanding Tom's 30% tax he receives and pay all owed back 30% taxes.

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  #49  
Old 05-11-2022, 03:14 PM
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Iím just wondering how much the Beach Sweepers turn in?

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  #50  
Old 05-11-2022, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by maxxkatt View post
.... when he comes into control of property that he knows or learns to have been lost or mislaid and appropriates the property to his own use ....
The key words here are : "Lost" and "mislaid". Eg.: Fumble finger and/or lapse of memories, etc....

But there's potentially another reason for the items (coins and rings) that we find : Deliberate abandonment . For example : Isn't it true that couples, in-a-spat, have been known to throw an engagement ring as far as they can ? Eg. Just to p*ss off the grovelling suitor who's begging them to reconcile, blah blah.

Or who's to say that persons don't toss coins into wishing wells. Or have some superstition they're fulfilling (I've found coins packed into a little vial, with some sort of voodoo charms and so forth, to ward-off-spirits, or whatever).

Hence, can't someone simply say : "I didn't know it was lost or mislaid" ?
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  #51  
Old 05-11-2022, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachhunter View post
Iím just wondering how much the Beach Sweepers turn in?
A lot of them don't look thru it but I know some that do and they pocket the finds...

I know on several spots I hunt where they dump and I have scored some really nice diamond rings and gold chains..

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  #52  
Old 05-12-2022, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
The key words here are : "Lost" and "mislaid". Eg.: Fumble finger and/or lapse of memories, etc....

But there's potentially another reason for the items (coins and rings) that we find : Deliberate abandonment . For example : Isn't it true that couples, in-a-spat, have been known to throw an engagement ring as far as they can ? Eg. Just to p*ss off the grovelling suitor who's begging them to reconcile, blah blah.

Or who's to say that persons don't toss coins into wishing wells. Or have some superstition they're fulfilling (I've found coins packed into a little vial, with some sort of voodoo charms and so forth, to ward-off-spirits, or whatever).

Hence, can't someone simply say : "I didn't know it was lost or mislaid" ?
Couple people had told me of stories of a lovers spat where a ring got tossed and where to look for it if i wanted it. So someone asks is that lost gold. NOPE! Woman told me where to find the purposefully disposed of property with permission to keep. FWIW most cops i deal with are curious and could care less about you finding a gold ring as lost property. In fact if you had a detector they could borrow to teach them how to detect in their off time you'd have more open areas. Bottle club here used to have off duty police officers who loved to dig bottles. They could tell you what ever reason people were digging a hole on an abandoned property. Usually in those areas of town nobody ever came outside to ask

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  #53  
Old 05-12-2022, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by itsaring! View post
Couple people had told me of stories of a lovers spat where a ring got tossed and where to look for it if i wanted it. ....
I heard of a young engaged college student lady, that decided she didn't want to go through with marrying the fellow. They were standing besides a big reflecting pool type elaborate fountain thing, talking this over. The fellow was groveling, trying to convince her to change her mind.

It turned in to a spat. And the gal took off her engagement ring, and tossed it way into the fountain ! The fellow was so embarrassed, of course. And didn't want to run afoul of campus security, so .... he came back at 2am. Wades out into the fountain, to look for his ring.

Campus security saw him anyhow, and the poor guy had a lot of explaining to do. Doh !
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  #54  
Old 05-12-2022, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachhunter View post
Iím just wondering how much the Beach Sweepers turn in?
Well, the one guy at our beach does (or has done). Dumps the machine near the dumpster, looks through everything and then within the hour another employee scoops it up with his payloader and deposits the junk in the dumpster (which is like 6 ft. high). Others I've watched just dump straight away.

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  #55  
Old 05-12-2022, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Detector View post
I've said it for years. If you look at the laws passed in the 70s you'll find detecting, and not turning in what you find, can be against the law.
Iíll be sure to turn in all my pull tabs and bottle caps too!
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  #56  
Old 05-13-2022, 10:26 PM
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Just say it was a girt from your Uncle Neptune!
Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Taken from this article :

https://www.floridacriminaljustice.c...f-florida-law/


"Theft by finding: an examination of Florida law

Youíre walking down the beach at sunset, when all of the sudden you feel foot kick something hard. You look down and notice a pair of Rat-Ban sunglasses in pristine condition. You look around and, seeing no one to claim them, take them for yourself. Lucky you!

Unfortunately, in Florida, the rules of ďfinders keepersĒ donít apply. Theft by finding is actually a crime.

The law:

Florida law states that if find lost or abandoned property and take it for yourself, you could face criminal charges, fines and jail time:

If you take a low-value item (worth less than $300), you could face a petit theft chargeóthe penalty for which is 6Ė12 months in jail and $500Ė$1,000 in fines.

If you find and take a higher value item, this is considered grand theft. The punishment for this crime is up to five years in jail and as much as $5,000 in fines.

Reporting found items:

If you find an item of value in a public space, you should turn it in to the police. The police will then take steps to track down its rightful owner. In South Florida, law enforcement agencies commonly post found items on propertyroom.com.

The cost of doing the right thing:

Being a good Samaritan comes at a price, however. If you turn over a found item, you must pay for the police departmentís costs of advertising and storing it. While this represents a financial inconvenience up front, it is only temporary. If the true owner claims the items within 90 days, they must pay you back for your expenses. If the true owner does not come forward within this timeframe, you may keep the found item yourself.
"


And I see no shortage of show & tell, on our FMDF bragging sections, or rings we md'rs have found. You are all lawless miscreants.


And similar L&F laws exist in all 50 states. In various forms of wording. Oh the horror ! We are all racked with guilt now, eh ?
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