Odd VDI Nox 800

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TNTGross said:

SO I did the update on the Nox about 2 weeks ago and now I am getting some Odd VDI numbers on my finds.

For the most part, I hunt with the factory settings, Park 1, Recovery 3, F2, power 22-25.

In the past two weeks, I have found 3 Mercury dimes. Before the update, Mercs would ring up 26-27, but now I find them ringing up at 23-24. Also, pennies from the 60's-80's are ringing up between 22-23-24-25. Wheat Pennies 27-30.

Also, new clad dimes are ringing up 25-27 and silver Rosie dimes are hitting at 26-28.

What is bothering me is the Mercury dimes are ringing up like pennies, pennies ringing up like dimes and clad dimes ringing up like silver.

Hope you were able to follow this... Anyone one else having this issue? Or is this normal? Basically, I want to know what the heck is going on.

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Today i had a rosie that went from 20 to 40 . The only reason i dug was because of the tone. Re checked hole after and nothing no tone or numbers. Next rosie was 27-28

yooper69 said:

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Today i had a rosie that went from 20 to 40 . The only reason i dug was because of the tone. Re checked hole after and nothing no tone or numbers. Next rosie was 27-28

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Hmmm. That is odd. Could have been on its side?

Two of the three I dug were pretty flat in the hole. And, after I had one out, I layed it on the ground and swung over it expecting it to ring up at 26-27 but even in my "air test" it rang up 23-24.

I have noticed erratic and odd VDI numbers much the same as you report since the update as well. I rolled it back and reinstalled it. Didn't seem to help.

Never anticipate 'perfect' numeric VDI responses. Not from in-the-ground, naturally located targets, not from planted test targets, and not from samples used in an 'air test.'

A change of search coils can result in a slight VDI variance. A change in settings can as well. Slight variances between two similar targets, target orientation, coil-to-target distance, ground mineral influences, and we can't forget a little give-and-take in manually adjusted settings or those that are digitally mastered by the software engineers and all the little things in circuitry that can influence how they are supposed to behave.

In short, nothing is 'perfect' and a VDI read-out is simply an additional tool we can use to get a rough idea what a detected object might be. I rely on the audio response primarily, but sometimes I do make a glance at a detector's visual display for added information. Not for a conclusive or exacting or defining expectation.

Some detectors have a wide-range of VDI numbers and some have targets crammed in a narrower window of numbers. Being off 1 or 2 digits, either way, isn't a big deal and certainly, in this modern digital world we deal with in detector design, if something is just a little off in a design or an 'update' we have to expect to see a little variance.

Maybe after an update we should put in more time using the device with the same search coil, essentially the same settings, working the same site location with similar ground conditions (dry, damp, saturated, those can cause differences) and compare a better number of signals we receive from located, pre-dug targets. Get too hasty and you're not dealing with sufficient data to compare. Being 'off' ± just a number or two isn't cause for alarm in my book.

Monte

PS: It's only fair to clarify that I'm not using an Equinox, but my opinions are based on ample use of all sorts of everything else.

Good Threat , it was useful

Hey Montey, I agree with you 100%. But after using a detector for a year and trusting it to perform in a certain way, then you install an update that is supposed to "improve" performance and then it throws you a curveball that makes no sense, it kinda gets your dander up.

That being said... My settings are just a smidge off factory settings and shouldn't alter VDI readings. If anything they should make them more accurate. Also, same coil as always. No change.

In my opinion, the update should have placed targets more accurately in their propper VDI range. Not further out of it.

Mercury dimes popping up at 23-24 places them under clad and into what used to be a junk/bottle cap range.

As you can see from this VDI chart from Steve Herschbach the Detector Prospector, 23-24 did not even show as useful VDI #'s and Silver Dimes should ring up 26-27.

Now, silver is ringing up lower than copper on my Nox. That is what is throwing me off.

Good post Monte, A lot of people don't realize that "audio/tone" is really what gets their attention rather than VDI. Otherwise they'd be tripping over fences, brush, and whatever else if they were constantly staring at a VDI number.

Fortunately numbers are used on VDI displays instead of pictures of coins, rings, buttons, and such. I can only imagine the confusion if they used pictures instead of numbers. I believe it impossible to accurately reproduce a signal of an undug target whether it's doing an air test, reburied, thrown up in the air, or whatever else. Just ain't gonna happen.

Want to try a real test? cover the VDI then hunt by tone only then do the opposite and see what produces the most finds. Yep, you're right Monte...VDI is an addition not a necessity.

normx2 said:

Good post Monte, A lot of people don't realize that "audio/tone" is really what gets their attention rather than VDI. Otherwise they'd be tripping over fences, brush, and whatever else if they were constantly staring at a VDI number.

Fortunately numbers are used on VDI displays instead of pictures of coins, rings, buttons, and such. I can only imagine the confusion if they used pictures instead of numbers. I believe it impossible to accurately reproduce a signal of an undug target whether it's doing an air test, reburied, thrown up in the air, or whatever else. Just ain't gonna happen.

Want to try a real test? cover the VDI then hunt by tone only then do the opposite and see what produces the most finds. Yep, you're right Monte...VDI is an addition not a necessity.

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This is all true, and when I have the time, I dig all the targets I can. But when trying to cherry-pick and avoid trash, having good targets ring up in the trash zone is not helpful.

The only reason I found out Mercury dimes were now ringing up as 23-24 was because I had the time to dig all targets. When I dug them, I was expecting a bottle cap, not a desired dime.

Separation is one of the reasons I chose to spend the big money and get the Nox 800. If separation didn't matter to me, I would have picked up a cheap mono tone detector and dug every beep that sounded off.

The point of this post was to ask if others had this issue as well. I agree that digging all targets is ideal and you will find more items doing so. But, if you had the ability to separate good from bad and only pick the good, wouldn't you do so?

Unfortuanely, my Nox is now telling me that it is junk, but due to digging it, I have found out otherwise.

I understand and agree with Monte and with TNT. Lots of variables can produce less than perfectly consistent VDI numbers. But TNT is correct in that once you have a lot of hours on a machine and get used to what it tells you, unexplainable changes in consistency can be frustrating.
So, just for fun, and since it is pissing down cold rain today, I tried something and it seemed to straighten out the numbers on my Equinox, at least in an air test.

First, I did a factory reset.
Then, I rolled back the updates to the original 1.5.0 version.
Then I did another factory reset
Then I installed the newest 2.0.1 update.
Then I did another factory reset.

My air tests on coins 3-4 inches from the coil in Park 1 at the factory settings were as follows:

1904 V Nickel- 12-13
1929 Buffalo nickel- 13
1945 War Nickel 13-14
1977 Jefferson Nickel 13
1900 IHP- 19-20
2006 zinc penny 20-21
1958 Wheat penny- 25
1995 clad dime- 25-26
1944 Mercury Dime 26-27
1914 Barber Dime 26-27
2006 Nebraska State quarter 29-30
1949 GW quarter 31
1973 Kennedy clad half dollar 33
1908 Barber Half dollar 33

This is consistent with what I was seeing prior to the update. As mentioned, results in the wild might be different but I am confident that the machine is telling me what it is supposed to tell me.

Hmmmm. I will have to redo my updates and try that myself. Thank you MTtrashdigger

TNT you need to roll back and reinstall till it comes up right that is not right and i have seen others that had your problem. I did not update mine because of this very issue. I can have a nail in the hole with a silver dime and i will not get a solid ID but i will get lots of 26-27 but slightly jumpy. When i get this with the good tone i very rarely miss. Most have no idea the power of the NOX.

normx2 said:

Good post Monte, A lot of people don't realize that "audio/tone" is really what gets their attention rather than VDI. Otherwise they'd be tripping over fences, brush, and whatever else if they were constantly staring at a VDI number.

Fortunately numbers are used on VDI displays instead of pictures of coins, rings, buttons, and such. I can only imagine the confusion if they used pictures instead of numbers. I believe it impossible to accurately reproduce a signal of an undug target whether it's doing an air test, reburied, thrown up in the air, or whatever else. Just ain't gonna happen.

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'Thank You' and I agree that, most of the time, a naturally located target signal isn't going to match-up with a recovered target response.

normx2 said:

Want to try a real test? cover the VDI then hunt by tone only then do the opposite and see what produces the most finds. Yep, you're right Monte...VDI is an addition not a necessity.

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Back in the latter '80s and since then, when having a discussion with someone, or even a small group at a club meeting or in a seminar, to help them experience the benefit of hearing and learning the audio response (either a single-tone or any multi-tone detector), I encourage them to stop by the drive-through at their favorite fast-food place when they head out on a detecting jaunt. Enjoy their meal on the drive there, then .... When they reach their destination, use the small sack their meal came in; roll or fold it down to a proper size; then fit it over their visual TID display and THEN set up and start hunting.

Totally ignore the display and listen to all audio responses and recover those that they feel might be a desired target, or at least a target-of-interest based on the audio response. Continue to hunt the site for at least 1 hour and possibly 2 hours. Then, take a good look at what they recovered, good or bad, simply based on the audio response. If they want they can remove the paper sack and start looking at their display, but consider the audio hit they get first. It can be educational.

As I mentioned, I generally am not too interested in a detector that is 'updatable' and even if I own one, I seldom do the updates. When I have, I FIRST double check the detector using my preferred settings to take note of the performance behavior, Discrimination, and VDI / TID read-out of several examples of what I am searching for.

Then, after doing an update, run all the same testing again, keeping notes, to see if there was any beneficial improvement in any detector setting performance, and also see if there was any loss in performance or quirkish behavior compared to before the update. Quite often I have noticed some differences immediately that were not touched on before and and/or had nothing to do with what the update was supposed to be addressing.

Monte

TNTGross said:

SO I did the update on the Nox about 2 weeks ago and now I am getting some Odd VDI numbers on my finds.

For the most part, I hunt with the factory settings, Park 1, Recovery 3, F2, power 22-25.

In the past two weeks, I have found 3 Mercury dimes. Before the update, Mercs would ring up 26-27, but now I find them ringing up at 23-24. Also, pennies from the 60's-80's are ringing up between 22-23-24-25. Wheat Pennies 27-30.

Also, new clad dimes are ringing up 25-27 and silver Rosie dimes are hitting at 26-28.

What is bothering me is the Mercury dimes are ringing up like pennies, pennies ringing up like dimes and clad dimes ringing up like silver.

Hope you were able to follow this... Anyone else having this issue? Or is this normal? Basically, I want to know what the heck is going on.

Click to expand...

I've had all of the issues at various times both before and after the update. For something ringing up in the 22 to 29 range I can tell as much about target ID from the size, depth, and audio of the target than the numbers. It's very common for me to see copper dimes that have been in the ground a long time--both wheats and memorials--throw off numbers as high as 30. Small silver is often a complete surprise.

Edited to add: Mine air tests per the chart. It's pre-dig that's inconsistent.

TNTGross said:

What is bothering me is the Mercury dimes are ringing up like pennies, pennies ringing up like dimes and clad dimes ringing up like silver.

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I don't use a NOX but it sounds as if the new algorithm is reweighting the effects of size and conductivity on the target response. If so, it certainly can be learned, but I myself would find it very annoying if it happened to my machine (this happens in business software all the time, like when they change the way Windows works because they can, and don't care about annoying the users). I would have to use the machine before and after the update to make a better guess.

When you do these sorts of tests, you need to alter exactly one variable (in this case, the software), so I will offer a little trick if you are willing to try it going forward (most aren't).

Given, that, IMHO, air tests and test gardens are worthless, you have to build up a live test garden in the field. Most experienced detectorists know what a certain target is about 80% of the time. You know -- that's a deep silver, that's a wheatie, that's a clad dime, before even digging.

What I am going to recommend is not digging a few of these, if say, they are in an out of the way place and you can remember where they are.

Then, when you make a change, say a new coil, new machine, new firmware, come back to them. If that same deep silver sounds different when swapping the coil or firmware, then you know.

So, I have a live test garden out and about in Chester County. Of course you risk someone else finding your deep silver, but after 100s and 100s, what is one less merc? Its worth it, IMHO, for this very reason.

Of course, you can't control all variables, such as ground moisture or humidity (the latter some claim has an effect, I personally have my doubts on that point, but a topic for another day).

Something to consider, then you will know for sure if they burned you on a software update. As someone who still uses Excel 97 and does fine with it, I personally hate software updates

Modern metal detecting technology has moved into the realm of complex software. I spent many, many years in software development for corporate aviation software.

Certain releases or updates of any software are more reliable than others. Same is true of Windows, your iPhone iOS and your more advanced metal detectors where you can update the software.

It is mostly the human software developer factors that affect the software.
You have a very stable iPhone software release like iOS 12 and then they come out with iOS 13 and some things don't work or work the same. Then two weeks later they come out with iOS 13.1.3 to fix the parts broken in the iOS 13 update.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. Why? most complex modern software is just that. Complex. When you fix one part of the software code that may be in the more core parts of the code, it is difficult to anticipate what affect it will have on all other parts of the code. It is also difficult to test all possible settings and field conditions in metal detector code to see what affect a change will have.

With that in mind, software developers just do their best and release the code and wait until complaints come in from the field and try to fix those complaints as best they can without screwing up other parts of the code.

Minelab recently put a fix out for iron balance with adding the F2 setting. Who knows, this might have affected something else in the code like TID readings.

They fixed the back light without any or many complaints on the 600. But the back light is really simple isolated piece of code and probably no other part of the program ever concerns itself with the back light.

But iron balance would in my opinion be in the heart of the signal and audio processing code which without a doubt is the heart of the Equinox metal detecting code.

I have basically given up on my 800 trying to determine which is a penny or a dime with the TID. I just go by the audio signal and dig everything that sounds good and does not really jump around. If it sounds good and locks in on a single or double digit in the TID or both a north and south sweep I dig it. For me bottle caps are mostly easy to ID by the sound and jumpy TID's and iron TID's or iron grunts in all metal.

Both Monte and Randy's comment/opinion is right on the mark. I've dug a number of 3 ringers, some Sharps, and a bunch of musket balls but I've yet to come across the "MAGIC BULLET" that manufacturers seem to be looking for in the high tech race to sell detectors.

I use a NOX and some old outdated beepers and I find the wizardy interesting and confusing at the same time. The only constant I can measure is the fact that my find amounts are about the same which tells me choice of site (research) is still the deciding factor no matter what detector I'm using.

I think the first mfg that develops a "Sniffer" follow the arrow mode that leads you to a TARGET will be the next big thing..

MTtrashdigger said:

First, I did a factory reset.
Then, I rolled back the updates to the original 1.5.0 version.
Then I did another factory reset
Then I installed the newest 2.0.1 update.
Then I did another factory reset.

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Link to the first software version 1.5?

TNT. I hear ya, and I know your frustration. End of Feb. last year I got one and the ID was dead nutz accurate. After a couple months is started mis iding, a lot. Sent it back to Minelab and they sent a replacement. One of the first signals with the new machine was a sweet 34-35 in all directions. A 7in. wheatie. And yes I rechecked, dug deeper, rescanned. Scratching my head I went home to get my Etrac to recheck. Nothing. And since I've had many deep, wheats, memorials and even Ihps come in up in the 30s where you would swear you had silver. I even bought a second 800 to compare signals. It was no different than the replacement. I've had silver dimes show up any where from 22 to 26.And then again in the high 30s. I have done the resets and upgrades. For me id is all over the place . Anywhere in the 20s you just about know you have a coin, just can't be sure what it is.So yes, cherry picking seems to be out unless you just dig 30 and above and that's still no guarantee. Yesterday at local park with in a 10ft diameter area I had a loud 25-26 screaming shallow memorial, 3 in down I pulled a shiny 53 Rosie. 10 min. later I get a high tone 36-37, 3in. down was a tarnished 40 Merc. Same park last week a high tone 37 38 was a 45 Merc at about 5in. And I do recheck and rescan my holes. I did contact Minelab after the second one acted up and I got the well it could be this it could be that, theres a lot of variances that cause these things. I do understand but penny signals telling me I got half dollar sized coin I don't understand. Once in awhile maybe, target orientation an so on, but not as often as it does happen. I had one crusty Merc give me a solid 39-40. A 39 GW came in at 26 with nothing else around the hole.
I guess the reason for my comment is to let you know its just not you, we live across the country form each other so it not a geographical thing. Keep in mind Multi- Fr. is new technology and I just chalk it up as an anomaly of that new tech. I do think it favors copper conductors. And do I wish it would have better separation and maybe give more info like the Etrac but that won't happen . Overall I think the Equinox is a good machine and will continue to use it till something better comes along. Good luck Mark

ToySoldier said:

Link to the first software version 1.5?

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Download the most current 2.0.1 update utility and open it up.
Turn on your detector and connect it to your computer via the charging cable to USB. The utility should then recognize your detector and tell you if you have the latest version.

In the lower right corner of the the utility you should see 3 small dots.
Click on them and a dropdown box should appear, giving you the option of restoring your detector to previous versions of the software.