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You know there is also a display with that audio!

Cherry Picker

Forum Supporter
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Messages
13,470
Location
Dodge City KS
I am getting so tired of all these *cough* test videos that pay little to no attention to VDI results. Why even do a video if all you concentrate on is the audio? Especially since the Manticore seems to finally show the value of a good VDI. Gee, who knows, it could well help encourage other manufacturers to develop more useful VDI systems.

Please stop ignoring the VDI results on your videos. Not everyone is an audio nut.

Also, we've already seen enough nail vs coin videos. Get out to that old pounded site and show us the results. You know that is what everyone wants to see, and we all know that is the true test for any detector. If it can't do it, then say so.
 
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You have a point. With the advent of all these digital screens they could go into more detail on real live digs. Not just pre-planned air tests. But I'm a guy who likes to listen to "noise". With that said , if you were so concerned about VDI and not sound , why even make a detector with a speaker and headphones ? Make a detector with a screen only. Just be careful where you're walking 🚶!
 
You have a point. With the advent of all these digital screens they could go into more detail on real live digs. Not just pre-planned air tests. But I'm a guy who likes to listen to "noise". With that said , if you were so concerned about VDI and not sound , why even make a detector with a speaker and headphones ? Make a detector with a screen only. Just be careful where you're walking 🚶!

I prefer both. I used nothing but the tone for many years. Back then the display was little more than a power meter. It had a needle that went up to show the power returned. Then TID started but still wasn't much so the sound was still king. In the late 80s early 90s all that changed. Far more reliable information was being displayed. It was the big selling point back then.

Now technology has the ability to display the same information that the audio circuit gets. In the case of say the E-Trac/CTX with dual VDI, 1 for ferrous & 1 for conductive ID, you can actually get more. You can only hear 1 tone at a time. This new 2D display on the Manticore looks promising, but no one is spending any time in their videos showing what it can, or can't do.

Detector MFGs are starving to find new technology but ignoring the obvious. VLF depth is maxed, now spend some time making a more accurate and informative VDI. Minelab has been the only ones working on it. The E-Trac was a nice start with dual VDIs, then the CTX took it to the next level with Target Trace. Now the Manticore looks to have the next generation in VDI. Many other MFGs have actually lost ground in the VDI technology in my opinion. Compressing the target segments. WTH were they thinking?

I used the Target Trace on the CTX a lot and loved the extra info. Kind of like how on a tone you might hear the tone start or end with an iron grunt. That is as close to the dual VDI you can get from the E-Trac or CTX, and possibly Manticore if someone would just take a little time and show it.

Now, you new Manticore owners, get out to those hard-pounded hot sites, and let's see what it can, or can't, do.
 
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Also, we've already seen enough nail vs coin videos.

Not just pre-planned air tests.

Air tests are an easy way to show a detector's potential and expose its flaws.

For example, in a recent video by Iffy Signals, he compares the Manti, 900, and D2, with a nail beside a coin. The D2 fails miserably on ID'ing the coin, but the Manti and 900 correctly ID the coin. If people didn't do these kind of air tests, then these kinds of flaws wouldn't be known. More specifically, when targets are in the wild, you don't know what you're missing, but air tests can show you what you're missing. If a detector can't hit a target in the air, it certainly won't hit it in the ground.

Side note:

The Manti and 900 ID'ing the coin correctly isn't unique. The Nox 600, 800, Legend, and other detectors, would ID that coin correctly as well.
 
Air tests are an easy way to show a detector's potential and expose its flaws.

For example, in a recent video by Iffy Signals, he compares the Manti, 900, and D2, with a nail beside a coin. The D2 fails miserably on ID'ing the coin, but the Manti and 900 correctly ID the coin. If people didn't do these kind of air tests, then these kinds of flaws wouldn't be known. More specifically, when targets are in the wild, you don't know what you're missing, but air tests can show you what you're missing. If a detector can't hit a target in the air, it certainly won't hit it in the ground.

Side note:

The Manti and 900 ID'ing the coin correctly isn't unique. The Nox 600, 800, Legend, and other detectors, would ID that coin correctly as well.

OK, but honestly, how accurate are those air test videos when it comes to real life in the ground comparisons? Personally, my experience says very little. There is a very big difference between a piece of iron that has been in the ground over 100 years and one you just put on a box.
 
OK, but honestly, how accurate are those air test videos when it comes to real life in the ground comparisons? Personally, my experience says very little. There is a very big difference between a piece of iron that has been in the ground over 100 years and one you just put on a box.

Sorry Detector, but I don't see how that relates to my point of air tests showing potential and exposing flaws.
 
Sorry Detector, but I don't see how that relates to my point of air tests showing potential and exposing flaws.

Well in an air test you will see "potentially" 18" depth. You think I'll see that in my local park? NO.

Flaws should only be addressed in real life conditions not staged in my opinion. Staged tests are just way too easy to manipulate the results you want. I know, I've done enough videos.

You know, as well as anyone with a little experience, that a nail in the ground for any length of time creates a halo. You do not have a halo in an air test. The results will not be the same.

I'm just saying I don't know about everyone else, but I'm burned out on air tests. And what is the first thing everyone does when they get their new detector? do the same air tests done by everyone else for the last 6 months.

You know what people want to see. They want to see that detector taken to some pounded hot spots and see what it can do. But instead, we see more air tests.
 
Well in an air test you will see "potentially" 18" depth. You think I'll see that in my local park? NO.

Flaws should only be addressed in real life conditions not staged in my opinion. Staged tests are just way too easy to manipulate the results you want. I know, I've done enough videos.

You know, as well as anyone with a little experience, that a nail in the ground for any length of time creates a halo. You do not have a halo in an air test. The results will not be the same.

I'm just saying I don't know about everyone else, but I'm burned out on air tests. And what is the first thing everyone does when they get their new detector? do the same air tests done by everyone else for the last 6 months.

You know what people want to see. They want to see that detector taken to some pounded hot spots and see what it can do. But instead, we see more air tests.
Agreed 100%. That's why it's called a "test". Just an idea of what's going on. That's it. In real life ? No way. Way too many variables to factor in. Like you say "Get me to a pounded site" and let's see it's true colors. Which nobody seems to do in their videos. I still haven't seen the Manticore on a mineralized saltwater beach. And that is a huge red flag when I've seen every other kind of dig. I know it is billed as being better than the Nox. But still....I want to see the magic happen.
 
Well in an air test you will see "potentially" 18" depth. You think I'll see that in my local park? NO.

Well of course it won't, but I'm not referring to air tests showing depth potential. By "potential", I'm referring to aspects such as unmasking and separating abilities. Which is also why I said, "If it can't hit the target in the air, then it won't hit it in the ground".

Flaws should only be addressed in real life conditions not staged in my opinion. Staged tests are just way too easy to manipulate the results you want. I know, I've done enough videos.

Just because it's an air test, doesn't by necessity mean that the test is being manipulated. There are testers out there that aren't salespeople or biased. For example, here's the Iffy Signals video showing the D2 flaw. This flaw has been known for months, and this flaw was discovered because someone did an air test. Otherwise, D2 owners probably wouldn't even have known about the coins they could be missing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVH9eaW_PlY




You know, as well as anyone with a little experience, that a nail in the ground for any length of time creates a halo. You do not have a halo in an air test. The results will not be the same.

Of course they won't be the same. They will be worse. But, that's not the point of an air test.
 
Agreed 100%. That's why it's called a "test". Just an idea of what's going on. That's it. In real life ? No way. Way too many variables to factor in. Like you say "Get me to a pounded site" and let's see it's true colors. Which nobody seems to do in their videos. I still haven't seen the Manticore on a mineralized saltwater beach. And that is a huge red flag when I've seen every other kind of dig. I know it is billed as being better than the Nox. But still....I want to see the magic happen.

I do think air tests have value, just not the ones you see most of. A coin vs nail.

Air tests are great to test the tones if you're setting up tone bins/notches. If you want to test if your detector can hit a piece of gold an air test can be helpful, but only if you know if it can't hit it in the air, it isn't going to hit it in the ground, but that is about it. Comparing one detector to another, in my opinion, and experience, will not always give you an accurate comparison. Each detector will deal with ground minerals in the manner it is able and set for. That can't be accurately tested in the air.

I saw a video comparing the E-Trac & Manticore on a 10" clad dime. the problem was anyone that who has used the E-Trac and become acquainted with how to use it, knows FBS is low & slow. Also, once you get that sweet sound you narrow your swing down to isolate the target. If you just keep swinging in a full swing the processor recovery becomes the deciding factor, not whether it can reliably hit the target continuously. Again, staged tests are far too easy to get the results you're after.
 
I am getting so tired of all these *cough* test videos that pay little to no attention to VDI results. Why even do a video if all you concentrate on is the audio? Especially since the Manticore seems to finally show the value of a good VDI. Gee, who knows, it could well help encourage other manufacturers to develop more useful VDI systems.

Please stop ignoring the VDI results on your videos. Not everyone is an audio nut.

Also, we've already seen enough nail vs coin videos. Get out to that old pounded site and show us the results. You know that is what everyone wants to see, and we all know that is the true test for any detector. If it can't do it, then say so.

Two things about these "VDI Test Videos" that really gets me, first is how fast they wave the coin in front of the coil. Seriously, is your coil swing that fast when it's over dirt??? If so then you need to take up another hobby! Secondly, they come off telling you that this machine will always give you a "XX" number when it goes over a "YY" target... WHAT? New and in-experienced detectorists take this to heart. I actually met a new guy in the park one day who was skipping copper pennies and clad dimes because "they weren't giving him the numbers" that some joker showed in a VDI Video I worked with him a bit, went back along his path and marked a few targets with my 'Nox 800-6 (he was using the 11 inch coil) and had him swing back along the path and when he got to a target that he wanted to skip, I looked at the numbers on his machine and told him what "I" thought was in the dirt (I was right 4 out of 5 but even #5 was a keeper) and had him dig it. He was a changed man after that...

All that being said, I hunt mostly by sound and hardly look at the display. I started on an ACE250 but within a few months had an old used Sovereign Elite with no display and used it for several years. That is part of the reason I love my Minelab machines, all the tones and true target sound. So I'm in the low and slow crowd, always looking around me or at the ground and rarely at the detector


:cool3:
 
Here's another example of how air tests can be very valuable:

It was in doing air tests, that someone discovered the Legend could ID coins in nonferrous trash even better than Park M1, by using Beach Mode's MW. This would likely be true for the Nox's Beach Wet mode as well. Point being, just like the D2 flaw, this issue could very well have gone forever unknown, but it didn't because someone was experimenting with air tests.
 
Here's another example of how air tests can be very valuable:

It was in doing air tests, that someone discovered the Legend could ID coins in nonferrous trash even better than Park M1, by using Beach Mode's MW. This would likely be true for the Nox's Beach Wet mode as well. Point being, just like the D2 flaw, this issue could very well have gone forever unknown, but it didn't because someone was experimenting with air tests.

As I said, some air tests do have value, but people need to know the limitations. Personally, I'd not put a lot of weight behind the air test that showed the Legends M1 was better at ID'ing until I proved it in the field. Again, a lot of things react differently in the air than in the ground. It may do better when not dealing with ground minerals, but not when having to deal with them in the field. Only;y a real in the wild test will confirm that.
 
I prefer both. I used nothing but the tone for many years. Back then the display was little more than a power meter. It had a needle that went up to show the power returned. Then TID started but still wasn't much so the sound was still king. In the late 80s early 90s all that changed. Far more reliable information was being displayed. It was the big selling point back then.

Now technology has the ability to display the same information that the audio circuit gets. In the case of say the E-Trac/CTX with dual VDI, 1 for ferrous & 1 for conductive ID, you can actually get more. You can only hear 1 tone at a time. This new 2D display on the Manticore looks promising, but no one is spending any time in their videos showing what it can, or can't do.

Detector MFGs are starving to find new technology but ignoring the obvious. VLF depth is maxed, now spend some time making a more accurate and informative VDI. Minelab has been the only ones working on it. The E-Trac was a nice start with dual VDIs, then the CTX took it to the next level with Target Trace. Now the Manticore looks to have the next generation in VDI. Many other MFGs have actually lost ground in the VDI technology in my opinion. Compressing the target segments. WTH were they thinking?

I used the Target Trace on the CTX a lot and loved the extra info. Kind of like how on a tone you might hear the tone start or end with an iron grunt. That is as close to the dual VDI you can get from the E-Trac or CTX, and possibly Manticore if someone would just take a little time and show it.

Now, you new Manticore owners, get out to those hard-pounded hot sites, and let's see what it can, or can't, do.

The target trace screen on the 3030 is the same as the 2D display on the Manticore, in some old 3030 videos they even called it 2D and that was 10 years ago!

I say I rarely look at the display and that is basically true, but if with the E-Trac I get a scratchy or broken signal, I WILL look at the FE-CO numbers for added info. I remember one hunt, I hit a target that sounded less than good, showed an FE bouncing from 10 to 35 but the CO was pretty solidly locked in at 45/46 so I dug it and it was a modern DOLLAR COIN, and not 25 yards away the same thing happened but the FE was even worse and CO was a 40/43 so I dug it and another dollar coin but about twice as deep and more crusty so nothing against the 'Nox but I can't wait to get back to swinging a 3030... later this month.

I'd love to see some old CTX and E-Trac guys use the Manticore for a month and see what they think. I'd sure do that if Minelab wanted to send me one to test out and report back. But barring that, c'mon you Manticore owners, let's see some real world results!

:cool3:
 
Here's another example of how air tests can be very valuable:

It was in doing air tests, that someone discovered the Legend could ID coins in nonferrous trash even better than Park M1, by using Beach Mode's MW. This would likely be true for the Nox's Beach Wet mode as well. Point being, just like the D2 flaw, this issue could very well have gone forever unknown, but it didn't because someone was experimenting with air tests.

And they could just as well have done the changes to the settings in the field and shown us what effect the soil has on that... the soil is always the wild card.

:cool3:
 
As I said, some air tests do have value, but people need to know the limitations. Personally, I'd not put a lot of weight behind the air test that showed the Legends M1 was better at ID'ing until I proved it in the field. Again, a lot of things react differently in the air than in the ground. It may do better when not dealing with ground minerals, but not when having to deal with them in the field. Only;y a real in the wild test will confirm that.

I and others, did prove in the field, that the Legend's MW ID's coins in nonferrous trash even better than M1. I found out about it because of an air test video TNS posted. TNS didn't discover it, but I think he was the one to first post a video about it. Believe it or not, MW worked so well, that he said it was the best nonferrous trash coin unmasker that he has ever used. He even went on to say that it was even better than the 3030. That made me really want to try it in the field. Long story short, it was definitely true. Realistically though, there was no need to "test" it in the ground, because it was plainly evident to see what was happening in the air test.

Anyway, any test or comparison, be it in the ground, or in the air, can be deliberately misleading. It's more of a matter of finding a tester that doesn't have an agenda, the tester knowing how to use the detector, and how much detector knowledge the viewer has.

Regarding VDI's. I love em'!
 
I and others, did prove in the field, that the Legend's MW ID's coins in nonferrous trash even better than M1. I found out about it because of an air test video TNS posted. TNS didn't discover it, but I think he was the one to first post a video about it. Believe it or not, MW worked so well, that he said it was the best nonferrous trash coin unmasker that he has ever used. He even went on to say that it was even better than the 3030. That made me really want to try it in the field. Long story short, it was definitely true. Realistically though, there was no need to "test" it in the ground, because it was plainly evident to see what was happening in the air test.

Anyway, any test or comparison, be it in the ground, or in the air, can be deliberately misleading. It's more of a matter of finding a tester that doesn't have an agenda, the tester knowing how to use the detector, and how much detector knowledge the viewer has.

Regarding VDI's. I love em'!

And being proved in the ground validates the find. Again, air tests can have value as long as you know the limitations. I just never put much into the nail vs coin vs detectorXXX. What are the ground minerals like? Is each detector optimally set up to best handle said minerals? Far too many variables, yet most of the videos I see are nail vs coin vs detectorxxx, and the nail has not been buried in the ground long enough to develop the halo which is untimely going to make the difference.

Every time I see one of those videos I see "watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat" LOL.

I'm sure, like myself, most people know the very first thing they would do IF they got a new detector is take it to their favorite pounded hot spot. I'm also sure that is what those with the new detectors are doing. We have yet to hear any great results or any videos. That can be because it is too new yet, or, there is nothing to see here, so let's do another coin vs nail video.
 
that he said it was the best nonferrous trash coin unmasker that he has ever used. He even went on to say that it was even better than the 3030.


I'm sorry, but that's a pretty brash statement, I think I'd have to see that one proven out...


Regarding VDI's. I love em'!

Regarding VDI's, yes, they DO have a place in detecting, just not the TOP place...
 
And they could just as well have done the changes to the settings in the field and shown us what effect the soil has on that... the soil is always the wild card.

:cool3:

Soil effects have NOTHING to do with air tests that expose flaws or issues. For example, if a detector can't properly ID a coin beside a piece of trash in the air, then it's not going to properly ID that coin in the ground. It will ID the coin even worse in the ground, so "the ground" doesn't matter for this kind of air test!
 
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