Kicked OUT OF THE WATER TODAY **UPDATE** Post 66

Scuba,

Have you thought about calling up the city and asking why your business is not being recognized as a business and lawful business by the harbor master. Ask them why you are being harassed by the harbor master for performing a legitimate salvage work. Talk about how you pay taxes and how in the past you have had run in with this department. Try and put some pressure on them from city hall and maybe this will make them back off.

Ray

RayK said:

Scuba,

Have you thought about calling up the city and asking why your business is not being recognized as a business and lawful business by the harbor master. Ask them why you are being harassed by the harbor master for performing a legitimate salvage work. Talk about how you pay taxes and how in the past you have had run in with this department. Try and put some pressure on them from city hall and maybe this will make them back off.

Ray

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I called his supervisor. We talked once, he was supposed to call me back and silence. No response at all. That is as far as I went. Maybe you have a point, put all my ducks in a row and go higher. Trying to get through to the Detroit police brass is a very challenging endeavor.

RayK said:

.... Have you thought about calling up the city and asking why your business is not being recognized as a business and lawful business by the harbor master. ....

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A noble idea, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do much good for Scuba. Because: There are 2 different entities involved. If a certain city defines a "business" as such & such, then there is no requirement for a 2nd entity somewhere else, to have the same definitions for what they accept.

For example, this is an issue for college and university accreditation processes. Someone throws out his shingle and starts "Bob's university" somewhere, to train for mechanics, or medical, or seminary/theology, etc... The school acheives "accreditation" with whatever licensing agencies certify a school, in the state or city they're in. Some student moves to another state, and attempts to transfer his credits, to finish his degree at another school. The 2nd school doesn't recognize the first school. And the poor student is left to argue that "the prior school is accredited". Yet it's not to the standard (the particular definitions or recognized agencies that-can-accredit, etc...).

So too will that probably be the case here. Just because the city accepts $50 to issue you a license for what they might label as a "business license", doesn't mean that some other govt. entity at a different level, has to recognize that.

Unless Scuba can argue that the current entity that he rangles with DOESN'T DEFINE (ie.: silent on the subject) the issue. Then, sure, seems that the ball is in Scuba's court . To say prove it isn't a business. Ie.: the burden of proof would be on them to prove otherwise.

Sheesh Tom! What kind of helpful advice is this to our poor Brother Dee? You are just confusing the issue and this poor dumb bastard! Stop with the big words too...anything over 3 syllables has no comprehension to a mouth breather...

Can a Digger find a penny or not?

Mud-puppy said:

Sheesh Tom! What kind of helpful advice is this to our poor Brother Dee? You are just confusing the issue and this poor dumb bastard! Stop with the big words too...anything over 3 syllables has no comprehension to a mouth breather...

Can a Digger find a penny or not?

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LOL Mud, do you think I am not edjumicated? I did learn a little bit of reading, righting and rithmatic in college and high school before I became a fish.

FOLKS NEW NEWS.

I took RayK's advice and tried the city offices. Three transfers and I get to someone that takes complaints. Told her my story. She contacted the Harbormaster's OFFICE, NOT HIM (Hmmm). Here is what they want.

They want me to check in before I dive and tell them where I will be diving.

They want me to check out when I am done.

They want to see my commercial license (NO SUCH THING issued by the STATE) Might still be an issue

They want to see everything I find.

Now we all know that absolutely NONE of that is in the law. However, to make this a win win situation I plan on doing just that. I have her direct number and she is sending me an email confirmation of what we discussed. Lets see where this goes. Stay tuned!!

Mud-puppy said:

Sheesh Tom! What kind of helpful advice is this to our poor Brother Dee? You are just confusing the issue and this poor dumb bastard! Stop with the big words too...anything over 3 syllables has no comprehension to a mouth breather...

Can a Digger find a penny or not?

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Puppy-mud, what Lack in literary wit, for creative writers-such-as-you, I make up for in high-sounding $20 words. How else could I keep up with you ?? eh ? eh ?

ScubaDetector said:

... Stay tuned!!

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I am becoming more and more convinced that ... with your gumption and skills at this: You could probably achieve entry into Bodie, Shiloh, or Gettysburg.

Can you please come out to California, go md'ing with me at some super sensitive historic monument places. And .... when all the dust has settled, you will have the bureaucrats not only giving us carte-blanche, but you will also have them digging our holes, carrying our tools, etc....

Tom_in_CA said:

I am becoming more and more convinced that ... with your gumption and skills at this: You could probably achieve entry into Bodie, Shiloh, or Gettysburg.

Can you please come out to California, go md'ing with me at some super sensitive historic monument places. And .... when all the dust has settled, you will have the bureaucrats not only giving us carte-blanche, but you will also have them digging our holes, carrying our tools, etc....

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I already cleaned those places out Tom!

Scooterjim said:

I stand by my statement, most of the big retailers have a background check almost as restrictive as the ones to be a cop, I also think there is a level of honesty, the truly corrupt cops are rare, but most have probably broke a rule or two, My favorite cop used to look for underage drinkers, very few, maybe none were arrested but their alcohol would get confiscated, sometimes, depending on age parents were called or car keys were taken and your dad could pick them up in the morning. He would take kegs and taps back to the liquor store for the $75 dollar deposit. I think he may have crossed the line with a cooler of steaks, but they were excellent steaks. He threw some great parties even had the cops called a time or two.

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I worked for a large retail company (no it was not Walmart). We did drug testing and background testing and still had employees stealing like crazy. I would really hate to think that such a large percentage of police officers are crooks

Far as I know in FL you can't own the water. Private/public land is marked by the tides. Rule of thumb is if the sand is wet it's public.

needler420 said:

Far as I know in FL you can't own the water. Private/public land is marked by the tides. Rule of thumb is if the sand is wet it's public.

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The government can claim they own anything they want. IF you have the money you can fight them. I was ready to fight because it was worth it to me. I still might have to.

ScubaDetector said:

The government can claim they own anything they want....

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Sure. And I'm sure they can back-it-up by crazy notions/laws. That ... you'd have to stand on one foot and squint real hard to achieve the notions.

It's no different than the "government can claim" notion of a mercury dime you find in a park. *Technically* (if you thought real hard), that could run afoul of harvest/remove language (you "removed" it after all, eh ?).

But seriously now ! How often does such far fetched govt. corruption and "gobbling up " occur ?? NOT OFTEN ! People are scuba diving all-the-time without issue. People are md'ing all the time w/o issue. So I'm tempted to think that your singular(s) encounters might be the exception ? I dunno

Tom, you are right. My lawyer said the law was illegal anyway.

You have a law on the books that says:

Sec. 23-2-2. - Swimming and underwater diving; prohibitions.

(a)

A person shall not swim, bathe, or engage in underwater diving operations outside of buoyed and designated swim areas, except when authorized by the city police department harbormaster.

Look at it carefully. ONE person can decide if you can dive or not dive. Your a friend of his have at it. He doesn't like the color of your shirt, he can say no.

No written form to fill out, no committee, no process. Depending on his mood he can let you enjoy your hobby or just say no. He said that in itself makes the law illegal.

BUT TONS and TONS of laws on the books are illegal. There is a road here in a city they put speed limit signs on to go 25 miles an hour. Cops pull people over all the time and ticket them and the folks loose in court. BUT the signs are completely illegal per STATE law. There are no driveways or residential houses and per STATE law, the road should be 45MPH. If you get a lawyer you can beat it. If not, you're going to get a fine.

There are so many laws on the books, nobody knows them all including the police. You even talk to a cop you can get a citation for disorderly conduct. My lawyer said that law in Detroit is so broad it is laughable.

BUT, in order to fight it you have to get cited.

Everyone is 100% right. If I would have bowed down to the Wayne county sheriff the first time and just got out of the water I wouldn't have caused such a stink. I could have left and come back as many times as I wanted without any problems.

BUT nobody is me. Nobody knows what happened to me when I was a state cop. Nobody got railroaded out of a job they loved. Nobody but nobody has the right to condemn me for taking the route I did. Did it cause me grief, a little. However in the end I will prevail just like the folks that leave when told and come back another day. I just took the harder route. I know that.

Folks that think my actions will make them change the law to make it harder on us? Get real. ONE incident in a huge city like Detroit is not on anyone's radar. Especially city council. They have a lot higher priorities than a diver in a river finding gold and silver and not bothering a fly.

I DO NOT GIVE IN TO ANY PERSON WHO CLAIMS AUTHORITY IF I KNOW MY RIGHTS ARE BEING VIOLATED. PERIOD. If I do not know the law, I will do whatever I am told. But if I do, cop or no cop, you have a tiger by the tail. THAT is MY RIGHT in this free country.

If I was not on a forum like this and kept to myself NOBODY would have known what happened to me and nobody would know the outcome. But I opened myself to folks that agree with me and folks that do not. Neither matter to me. What matters only is I did what I felt was best for ME. And the constitution allows that.

I agree your business is a dive salvage operation, but I don't think owning a dive salvage operation gives you the right to go in the restricted area unless you are actively salvaging, with a paying customer and a specific target. Looking for something to salvage is not the same as a salvage dive operation. By your logic anyone that finds a quarter in the water and spends it is a salvage dive operation as long as they have a business card

There isn't a body of water anywhere that doesn't allow salvage operations.

Scooterjim said:

I agree your business is a dive salvage operation, but I don't think owning a dive salvage operation gives you the right to go in the restricted area unless you are actively salvaging, with a paying customer and a specific target. Looking for something to salvage is not the same as a salvage dive operation. By your logic anyone that finds a quarter in the water and spends it is a salvage dive operation as long as they have a business card

There isn't a body of water anywhere that doesn't allow salvage operations.

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I am salvaging gold lost. The law doesn't say I have to find it for anyone but myself. I am a bona fide salvage operation and you cannot read anything more into the law than what is stated. NOWHERE in the law does it state I have to salvage something for anybody else but myself. Law is law.

I have a legitimate business, I make money finding things for folks, on my downtime I find things for myself. That is the way the law is written and I didn't write it.

IceScratcher got kicked out WADING and detecting there. He wasn't diving. He wasn't bathing, He wasn't swimming. What right did they have to do that? NONE.

Tom_in_CA said:

Sure. And I'm sure they can back-it-up by crazy notions/laws. That ... you'd have to stand on one foot and squint real hard to achieve the notions.

It's no different than the "government can claim" notion of a mercury dime you find in a park. *Technically* (if you thought real hard), that could run afoul of harvest/remove language (you "removed" it after all, eh ?).

But seriously now ! How often does such far fetched govt. corruption and "gobbling up " occur ?? NOT OFTEN ! People are scuba diving all-the-time without issue. People are md'ing all the time w/o issue. So I'm tempted to think that your singular(s) encounters might be the exception ? I dunno

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What? "Squint real hard to achieve the notions?" Theres that @#$ talk we talked about!...You aint helping poor Dee at all here Tom!

I do like the line though!: "Squint real hard to achieve the notions"..I think I can use this in the day to day!......when somebody axes me a kweshkin...Landlord axe "Are you making the rent this month"? I'll just tell Him, "Squint real hard to achieve the notions!"...

Somebody axes a kweshkin about AtPro TIDs here on the Forum?,. "Squint real hard to achieve the notions!"...Wife axes, "Are you drinking again before noon?" Hey! "Just squint real hard to achieve the notions!" See? It works for nearly every kweshkin axed!! Thank you!

I could care less about the details of this incident or others. What I like is that Scuba knows he is right and is willing to fight all comers, including the goobermint, to defend his convictions.

ROBOTCOP13 said:

Make yourself a dive vest and in big letters print "CSI"

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"Critical Salvage Inc." = C.S.I.


They got nothin' better to do.... all about power.

needler420 said:

Far as I know in FL you can't own the water. Private/public land is marked by the tides. Rule of thumb is if the sand is wet it's public.

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Try going in the water and detecting on the Treasure Coast.