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  #21  
Old 09-21-2022, 08:54 AM
FliesOnly FliesOnly is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Nope. People "broke the rules" back then . Waltzed right in front of lifeguard towers, and right past rangers, oblivious to any rule. And no one in authority cared or knew any better. Thus no, it was not "md'rs md'ing" (since, as said : They were ignored)
But you're admitting that there was a rule in place and that they were breaking that rule. You, of course, say that they "suddenly" started enforcing the rule cuz some stupid metal detectorist was dumb enough to ask if it's OK, but you ignore the just as likely scenario that maybe other beach goers started to complain about people metal detecting, cuz...you know...it was prohibited, and they decided to enforce the rule.


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
It's because enough people go asking "Can I ?" (as if they need to clarify, and/or get permission).
Well, apparently to did need to clarify or get permission because there was a rule in place prohibiting metal detecting.


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Rangers and authority (who apparently previously never gave the matter a moment's thought), are required to go research this 'pressing question'. And presto: B.O.L.s become the order of the day.
But the rule against metal detecting was in place before people started asking "Can I?", you even said so yourself. Maybe it had been ignored up until that point. You say it was "uncovered" because new detectorists were stupid enough to ask if it was OK, but ignore the very real possibility that it was because some metal detectorists pissed off other beach goers, and those pissed of beach goers started to complain...and next thing ya know, the old rule was now being enforced.
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2022, 11:03 AM
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Flies-only, I love your posts. They cause me to take-my-pulse continually. I appreciate your push-backs.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... But you're admitting that there was a rule in place ....
Ok, Sure. A "rule in place" . That preceded your supposed CAUSE-of-said-rule. Which is (drumroll) persons md'ing.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... maybe other beach goers started to complain about people metal detecting,......
Huh ? In my 45+ yrs. experience of this , the average passerby (100% of them) could care-less about a dude with a metal detector. (unless it's in highly manicured turf, or an obvious historic monument). Nor does the average passerby know or think of any "law/rules against md'ing" . And is thus somehow vigilant and offended that someone is md'ing. Why this notion about "beach goers" caring one iota, on your part ?

In my experience, the average passerby simply asks "what's the best thing you've ever found" and "how deep does it go". But mostly .... they don't even notice you. Why this notion that anyone cares-less ?

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... apparently to did need to clarify or get permission......
Yes, this is where I tell persons that , if they are skittish, to .... sure .... do their own research . And not ask "can I ?". To see if any rule exists. And .... sure .... if they find some language that offends them, they're welcome to stay home. Or they can go by the "does anyone really care ?" test-of-things.
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2022, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Flies-only, I love your posts. They cause me to take-my-pulse continually. I appreciate your push-backs.
Healthy debate is always a good thing.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Ok, Sure. A "rule in place" . That preceded your supposed CAUSE-of-said-rule. Which is (drumroll) persons md'ing.
I'm truly not sure what point you are trying to make here, sorry.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Huh ? In my 45+ yrs. experience of this , the average passerby (100% of them) could care-less about a dude with a metal detector. (unless it's in highly manicured turf, or an obvious historic monument).
Well, first off, you have no way of knowing that 100% of the people you have encountered in your years and years and years and years of detecting could not have cared less. Maybe they just didn't want to confront you face-to-face cuz you're so intimidating? Maybe they complained via a phone call? Who knows?



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Nor does the average passerby know or think of any "law/rules against md'ing" .
You cannot be serious. You really believe that no one would ever bother to see if an activity they see taking place in their presence is actually allowed? You know we're in the USA, yes?



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And is thus somehow vigilant and offended that someone is md'ing. Why this notion about "beach goers" caring one iota, on your part ?
Because people, including some detectorists, can be jerks, Tom. You keep acting as if all metal detectorists are sweet and innocent and above reproach. I mean, certainly no detectorist in history has ever bothered someone on the beach, right? But even if they are wonderful and never bother anyone while they're out there, to honestly believe that no one would complain is a bit misguided. Some people complain about almost anything, for no discernible reason whatsoever.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
In my experience, the average passerby simply asks "what's the best thing you've ever found" and "how deep does it go". But mostly .... they don't even notice you. Why this notion that anyone cares-less ?
I guess this simply means that we don't have to worry about "the average person" then. What about those persons who fall outside the norm though? You say that mostly they don't even notice you. How do you know this to be the case? Maybe they do notice you. Maybe they're a "Karen" and start inquiring about the legalities of detecting in the park, or on the beach, or wherever. And maybe they come across the rule that states "No Metal Detecting without a permit", Or "Metal Detecting allowed in designated areas only", and start to raise a stink cuz they saw you detect where you're not allowed.
According to you though, it's OK to detect without the permit or in areas closed to detecting (you know, cuz no one will care), but yet seemingly are befuddled when detecting is suddenly banned completely...and then blame the ban on some detectorist inquiring about the rules, and NOT the detectorist that was breaking the rule.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Yes, this is where I tell persons that , if they are skittish, to .... sure .... do their own research . And not ask "can I ?". To see if any rule exists. And .... sure .... if they find some language that offends them, they're welcome to stay home.
Hey, we agree on something!!


Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Or they can go by the "does anyone really care ?" test-of-things.
So you are again advocating for someone to simply ignore any rule prohibiting metal detecting, and go with the "no one will care" philosophy...and somehow or another do not see this as any sort of cause to a permanent ban being implemented and/or enforced? Amazing.
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2022, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
".... Healthy debate is always a good thing...."
That's what god invented the internet md'ing forums for For us geeks to spar about which machine is better, and other md'ing related topics

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
" .... I'm truly not sure what point you are trying to make here, sorry...."
I was referring to the musing of what causes awareness, rules, scrams, etc..... As in ... THE INITIAL creation of any such rule. And I'm saying that, no, it's not "people that just went". Because if there were-no-rule then they are violating, then presto, they're not 'breaking rules'. And if they went IN SPITE of a rule, then ... gee , it was already against a rule. So either way : It did not create a rule.

And bear in mind I'm not advocating tromping on obvious historic off-limits spots (aside from occasional locker room talk). This is only the discussion of "how did rules/laws get started, .... in the first place ?" issue.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
" .... You cannot be serious. You really believe that no one would ever bother to see if an activity they see taking place in their presence is actually allowed? You know we're in the USA, yes? .... "
Yes, I'm serious. I think that 99.99% of passerbys don't even notice us, and could care-less, and aren't studied on the subject.

For example: When I first started dating my wife-to-be (in 1998), I told her about my hobby. She was perplexed. She said she could never even remember seeing an md'r anywhere, in her life. It just never occurred to her.

And I noticed when we travel, that if we drive by someone md'ing, I tend to spot them from a mile away. While she's oblivious. Or when we're walking through a park , I'll notice a sloppy divot (that I suspect is the result of an md'r). And I'll point it out to her. But she didn't even notice (was not studying her foot steps, and doesn't even notice or care about these things).

So I believe this is the psychological trick of "projection" : You and I notice these things because (doh) : We're md'rs. And we naturally think that everyone else cares or notices.

Same for if you are a master chef cook, and watching a late-night info-mercial on a cooking tool : You're going to notice slight mistakes. And will assume that "everyone is going to be calling the TV network the next day and complain". But .... seriously .... who else besides a master chef, who has a bee-in-his-bonnet about the correct knife, or temperature to cook a turkey at, even cares or notices ? Same with md'ing , IMHO.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
" .... What about those persons who fall outside the norm though?.... "
Yes, The exception will be purist archies, or someone who mows the lawn. Yes: My stance will not provide 100% protection that : "Everyone will love and adore you and I". Granted.

But here's the deal : Going in ahead of time and asking "Can I ?" does not solve this 1% problem. It only makes it worse IMHO.

And as for the 1% : Yes, I wish everyone would roll out red carpets for me/us. But I've come to the realization that we're in an odd-ball hobby. That, yes, involves "digging" and "taking things". Thus: Barring super innocuous beaches or something, this is a hobby where you have to grow a thick skin. And no amount of going in ahead of time seeking blessings, makes this aspect any better.


Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
"... you are again advocating for someone to simply ignore any rule prohibiting metal detecting, and go with the "no one will care" philosophy .... "
This is where it gets complicated : Because when you say "rule" ^ ^ , are you referring to ancillary verbiage which *might* be said to apply ? (Eg.: alter, deface, molest, collect, harvest, etc....) ? If so, yes: I do not construe those things to necessarily apply. And I do not construe those things to mean : "We should go seek clarification".

But if you say "rule" ^ ^ as in : Specific/explicit rule or law that truly says : "No md'ing", even then I have to ask: Where did that info come from ? Because you'd be surprised how often someone fetches a "no" (with his "pressing question") and then floats that answer on social media for other md'rs. Ok, does that constitute a law or rule ?

But sure : If there is a true & specific law (obvious historic sensitive monument), that you can look up yourself, and they care & they enforce, etc... then sure : Stay home.
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2022, 01:44 PM
FliesOnly FliesOnly is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And if they went IN SPITE of a rule, then ... gee , it was already against a rule. So either way : It did not create a rule.
True, if detecting is already banned, then them going in and detecting did not create that rule or law. However, if was merely restricted in some manner and they ignored that rule, then that might very well be the reason why a rule went from: “Permit Required to Metal Detect”, or “Metal Detecting Allowed in Designated Areas Only”, to: “Metal Detecting is Not Allowed”.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And bear in mind I'm not advocating tromping on obvious historic off-limits spots (aside from occasional locker room talk).
No…you’re just advocating for ignoring a rule or law.



Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Yes, I'm serious. I think that 99.99% of passerbys don't even notice us, and could care-less, and aren't studied on the subject.
Do you have data to back up that number? I suspect not and instead it’s simply an example of “PIDOOMA”.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
For example: When I first started dating my wife-to-be (in 1998), I told her about my hobby. She was perplexed. She said she could never even remember seeing an md'r anywhere, in her life. It just never occurred to her.
A lot has changed since 1998.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And I noticed when we travel, that if we drive by someone md'ing, I tend to spot them from a mile away. While she's oblivious.
Maybe you’re a terrible driver and she’s sitting there with her eyes closed? 😊




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Or when we're walking through a park , I'll notice a sloppy divot (that I suspect is the result of an md'r). And I'll point it out to her. But she didn't even notice (was not studying her foot steps, and doesn't even notice or care about these things).
If she stepped in/on that “sloppy divot” and twisted her ankle, I bet she’d take notice. Maybe even find out if metal detecting is allowed “there” (where ever that may be). Maybe even complain to someone about it.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
So I believe this is the psychological trick of "projection" : You and I notice these things because (doh) : We're md'rs. And we naturally think that everyone else cares or notices.
I do not recall ever detecting in a public area with other people around and NOT being approached by people inquiring about my activity. I think your “99.99%” number is off by a factor of about 90%. See, I can make up numbers too.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Same for if you are a master chef cook, and watching a late-night info-mercial on a cooking tool : You're going to notice slight mistakes. And will assume that "everyone is going to be calling the TV network the next day and complain". But .... seriously .... who else besides a master chef, who has a bee-in-his-bonnet about the correct knife, or temperature to cook a turkey at, even cares or notices ? Same with md'ing , IMHO.
Are you seriously suggesting that only metal detectorists complain about and report other metal detectorists?




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Yes, The exception will be purist archies, or someone who mows the lawn. Yes: My stance will not provide 100% protection that : "Everyone will love and adore you and I". Granted.
Your disdain for science is sad. Regardless, it isn’t about everyone loving us. The issue is that when detectorists ignore existing rules/laws, don’t act all surprised when someone complains. I’m still befuddled as to how you can knowingly admit to...and even encourage…rule breaking and yet not see that as a factor in our hobby getting banned from some locations.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
But here's the deal : Going in ahead of time and asking "Can I ?" does not solve this 1% problem. It only makes it worse IMHO.
More made up numbers. You cannot make up a number and then treat is as factually correct. I know that in this particular climate, facts are ignored and we must provide “both sides of the story”, but that’s just nonsense. Heck, you’re 1% number in the above sentence as 100 times greater than your 99.99% number from earlier. The least you could do is be consistent with your made up numbers.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
And no amount of going in ahead of time seeking blessings, makes this aspect any better.
Neither does knowingly violating existing rules.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
This is where it gets complicated : Because when you say "rule" ^ ^ , are you referring to ancillary verbiage which *might* be said to apply ? (Eg.: alter, deface, molest, collect, harvest, etc....) ? If so, yes: I do not construe those things to necessarily apply. And I do not construe those things to mean : "We should go seek clarification".
I am not referring to ancillary verbiage, but let’s run with that for a second. Detecting in the County Parks in my area requires a permit. Certain areas are also off limits to detecting. Listed elsewhere in the Park Regulations is the “ancillary verbiage” you mentioned above. Obviously it does not apply to metal detecting because metal detecting is explicitly stated as being allowed and the “ancillary verbiage” is listed under a completely different section related to the trees, flowers, picnic tables, charcoal grills, etc., found within the park boundaries. However, let’s say a visitor from…oh...I don’t know, maybe from California…shows up and doesn’t bother to get a permit and also detects in areas closed to detecting. Do you not think that that behavior is more likely to lead to an outright ban, versus someone else who simply stopped in at the County Office and asked if detecting was allowed in County parks? Could you not see the County banning detecting in their Parks and transferring that “ancillary verbiage” from it’s current location in the Park Regulations, over to the section dealing with metal detecting?




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
But if you say "rule" ^ ^ as in : Specific/explicit rule or law that truly says : "No md'ing", even then I have to ask: Where did that info come from ? Because you'd be surprised how often someone fetches a "no" (with his "pressing question") and then floats that answer on social media for other md'rs. Ok, does that constitute a law or rule ?
Ummmm, no, that does not constitute a rule or law.




Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
But sure : If there is a true & specific law (obvious historic sensitive monument), that you can look up yourself, and they care & they enforce, etc... then sure : Stay home.
Why do you have to add “and they care to enforce, etc…”? If it is already banned, it’s probably that way because people like you ignored some other rule or law (permit required, closed in certain areas, etc) prior to it being banned, not because someone asked if it was allowed.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2022, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly View post
.... More made up numbers. You cannot make up a number and then treat is as factually correct. .....
F.O. : Let's be honest : We are BOTH making up numbers. We are both making up degrees of "imminent" or "non-imminent" concerns. Thus, sure, I'm just "making up numbers". And so are you. That's fine. Everyone has different caution levels and risk assessments.

As for the rest of what you've said : I'll let you have the last word. You have been a good sport
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