Native patterned artifact

While it might not be "Authentic" I still think it's old and probably picked up on a road trip as a souvenir. I think the use of the swastika, makes it pre-1941. I'm not native, but I've been to several resevations and the gift shops today all sell the same kind of stuff from wooden tomahawks, spears, faux leather shields and native princess paintings, and it was the same way when I was a kid back in the day. So this is probably something bought in bulk, like the tomahawks from China, and sold as a cheap trinket. I still think it's cool.

007tallguy said:

interesting and strongly worded insight.
so... just so i get it right, i basically have nothing more than another piece of trash, correct? ok, i'm cool with that.
i'm glad i'm not the one who swindled that buyer on ebay with one of these fakes! ain't he gonna be pee'd when he finds out!

thanks for the info.

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Sorry I just call it like I see it especially when its Native American related as there is a lot of misinformation surrounding our culture and also a lot of wannabee New Agers put their own spin on things. The symbols like the trees and birds are not like any Native American symbols for those things. Also think about it- it has teepees on it. The only Indians lived in teepees were in the Plains. Navajo did not live in teepees and neither did Cherokee who both used the swastika. Since this was trying to be "blamed" on the Navajo earlier in conversation well they never did use canoes as they live in the desert. So what you have hear is a item with a mismatch of stereotypical Indian-looking symbols, nothing suggests authenticity. I think you have like others have stated an old souvenir or else some sort of craftwork that a non-Indian made years ago just trying to have fun making what they thought to be Indian artwork and maybe they made several pieces that were resold. To be really sure you need to take it to the nearest museum or else tribal office of the closest reservation to the place where you found it and let them tell you. If its authentic then its going to have to come from whatever Indians lived in that area, so if it doesn't match up with the symbols of their culture then well its really questionable. The metal armbands I am familiar with always had either no design or spiritual symbols, not storytelling symbolism which this is.

hillbillydigger said:

Navajo did not live in teepees and neither did Cherokee who both used the swastika. Since this was trying to be "blamed" on the Navajo earlier in conversation well they never did use canoes as they live in the desert.

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I don't think anyone tried to "blame" the Navajo. I'm as white Anglo European descent as they come, so I wouldn't know a Navajo bracelet from a Sioux one. Not because I'm insensitive, but because my historical interest lay in different areas.

My knowledge of the item, and the first time Navajo was even mentioned in the conversation was when I posted the Ebay auction that claimed the item was Navajo.

Definitely not trying to offend or blame anyone. Just trying to offer some insight on what "might" the item was.

mark_painter said:

I don't think anyone tried to "blame" the Navajo. I'm as white Anglo European descent as they come, so I wouldn't know a Navajo bracelet from a Sioux one. Not because I'm insensitive, but because my historical interest lay in different areas.

My knowledge of the item, and the first time Navajo was even mentioned in the conversation was when I posted the Ebay auction that claimed the item was Navajo.

Definitely not trying to offend or blame anyone. Just trying to offer some insight on what "might" the item was.

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Sorry didn't mean to offend you. Maybe blame was the wrong word and I apologize, how about claim. I just saw several posts saying it was/could be Navajo which is actually pretty funny because their artwork is nothing like that. They do like their silver and turquoise bracelets and rings, but I don't recall them every wearing armbands which hadn't even occurred to me earlier. I'm surprised though that other people do not know these things. We were taught about a number of tribes when I went to school. Did no one else learn in school how few Indians ever lived in teepees and used canoes? That's all Hollywood stereotype. There's so much these days on tv about Native people, especially on History channel. Does no one watch these shows? I thought a lot of people did??

hillbillydigger said:

Sorry didn't mean to offend you. Maybe blame was the wrong word and I apologize, how about claim.

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Not offended at all and I certainly wasn't trying to offend, I know cutural artifacts can be hotly debated at times and that's not what we're trying to do here. Just help a fellow MDer figure out what he has. Sometimes that just means throwing out Ideas until someone with more knowledge, like yourself, chimes in.

I just saw several posts saying it was/could be Navajo which is actually pretty funny because their artwork is nothing like that. They do like their silver and turquoise bracelets and rings, but I don't recall them every wearing armbands which hadn't even occurred to me earlier.

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This is the information we're looking for. Not everyone is going to have a knowledge of western tribes. I'll admit, my first thought at seeing the bracelet ( I think we stopped calling it armband after the ebay post) was it was western. But that's just me, I'm looking to learn as well.

I'm surprised though that other people do not know these things. We were taught about a number of tribes when I went to school. Did no one else learn in school how few Indians ever lived in teepees and used canoes?

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When I was growing up, many moons ago, the only native history we got was the Thanksgiving day story. It wasn't until much later when I got into Early Kentucky and colonial history, I started reading and my reading primarily deals with Eastern tribes of the Algonquian peoples, specifically the 5 septs of the Shawnee tribe, which is how I knew about the armbands; and that they wore turbans instead of head-dresses. I would love to hear to hear your thoughts on the canoe issue sometime (maybe via PM) as many of the Eastern tribes were master birchbark and dugout canoe makers and used them regularly.

That's all Hollywood stereotype. There's so much these days on tv about Native people, especially on History channel. Does no one watch these shows? I thought a lot of people did??

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No argument here on Hollyweird. As to watching TV, I'd rather read my history so it's not compacted into 13 1/2 minute segments.


So unless anyone has any more knowlege to add to the bracelet in question. I think we pretty much buried it. MDer pun intended

mark_painter said:

Not offended at all and I certainly wasn't trying to offend, I know cutural artifacts can be hotly debated at times and that's not what we're trying to do here. Just help a fellow MDer figure out what he has. Sometimes that just means throwing out Ideas until someone with more knowledge, like yourself, chimes in.

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I never did look at the actual auction as I've been rather busy trying to catch up on my messages, emails, then heading out to hunt bottle caps and pull tabs this afternoon . But if it sold for a small fortune I feel really bad for whoever bought it as this to me might be fraudulent and is unfair. It did occur to me that *maybe* it could be Navajo in this sense- maybe a Navajo guy over in Tuba City looking to make some spending money likes to make cheap Indian looking knickknacks that appeal to the souvenir store shopper. Just an idea...

mark_painter said:

When I was growing up, many moons ago, the only native history we got was the Thanksgiving day story. It wasn't until much later when I got into Early Kentucky and colonial history, I started reading and my reading primarily deals with Eastern tribes of the Algonquian peoples, specifically the 5 septs of the Shawnee tribe, which is how I knew about the armbands; and that they wore turbans instead of head-dresses. I would love to hear to hear your thoughts on the canoe issue sometime (maybe via PM) as many of the Eastern tribes were master birchbark and dugout canoe makers and used them regularly.

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Sure PM's are fine. Sometimes might take a day or so to respond depending on day of week. The canoe culture for lack of a better term was mostly Eastern. Some made birchbark, some made dugout canoes. Don't think out West it was very common since you need water for that. Plains had some canoes but the Eastern tribes utilized it more yet they didn't live in the stereotypical teepee that you are suppose to have along with horse and war bonnet. Not really that up on Canadian tribes, but I know the Chinook and Salishan took canoes to a whole new level considering the distances they traveled. Not sure about the Shawnee history of turbans if its the same, but there was a period in Cherokee history where a turban and what looked like a smoking jacket was all the rage in men's fashion. It was borrowed from the French. Check out Sequoyah-
http://goldenink.com/images/sequoyah.gif