What about the new Nokta ?

longbow62 · Aug 29, 2021

Wow Monte if your Apex is in fact out performing the Equinox then your one of the few getting that kind of performance over the Equinox. I mean why isn't everybody selling their Multi-IQ Equinox or Vanquish and getting a Multi-Flex Apex if that was anywhere close to the norm? The simple fact is it's not the norm. If it was this forum would be lit up with folks saying as much.

jl1252 · Aug 29, 2021

longbow62 said:
Wow Monte if your Apex is in fact out performing the Equinox then your one of the few getting that kind of performance over the Equinox. I mean why isn't everybody selling their Multi-IQ Equinox or Vanquish and getting a Multi-Flex Apex if that was anywhere close to the norm? The simple fact is it's not the norm. If it was this forum would be lit up with folks saying as much.

Well said.

jmaclen · Aug 30, 2021

Monte said:
j.t., can you describe exactly what the multi IQ technology is, or what it does that other SMF's can't do?

I know in the old sites I have hunted with a lot of iron nails and other closely positioned ferrous debris, my Garrett Apex w/Ripper 5X8 DD outperforms the EQ 800 w/6" DD in SMF as well as a couple Single Freqiencies.

Now the EQ 800 using the multi IQ SMF does work differently from the BBS and FPS models they also made. But other than being different from their own units, I don't know what technical benefits are offered compared to some of the other detectors on the market. Of course, right now, they have very little SMF performance benefits over the Garrett units I am using.

Just curious what 'technical' things you are referring to.

Monte

I hear comments from all over the metal detecting forums that Multi IQ does not work well in bed of nails situations. That has not been my experience with the Equinox 800 set up for what I have found to be some good working settings that can give me dependable ferrous/non-ferrous 2 tone discrimination. These are not default settings. The example below is just one way to use the Equinox in a bed of nails situation. There are others.

First, I would never use a Vanquish 340, 440 or 540 in a thick bed of nails whether they were pre-1900s or modern unless that was the only detector I had. Recovery speed, target separation and iron bias limitations on those detectors are just not going to cut it. Minelab deliberately set them up with these limitations. They are their entry level detector line. I have owned all three models and still own the 440 as a very capable loaner for basic detecting by a beginner or just for some fun. Not bashing the Vanquish series by any means. In the right situations, these detectors go deep and are capable of outstanding numerical and tone target ID that is unmatched by anything in their class including the Simplex and the APEX. I have used the Simplex, APEX and Vanquish 540 and 440 side by side in the field on wild targets in moderate to high mineralization. Vanquish wins on non-ferrous targets deeper than 4" for extremely accurate non-ferrous target IDs if those targets are not too close together.

I do not presently have a Garrett Ace APEX. I have used one however for testing. I am waiting for the AT series SMF.

I just completed another round of Monte's nail board testing using 3 excellent detectors.....XP Deus, Nokta Makro Simplex (entry level price but intermediate level performance in iron for sure), and the Equinox 800 using an Indian Head penny and Mercury dime for non-ferrous testing along with 4 different sized pre-1900s square nails. I tested both coins in positions 1 and position 2 listening for ferrous/non-ferrous tones in both swing directions. If I heard non-ferrous tones in two opposite swing directions I gave a score of 2, one direction=1, no direction=0. A perfect score is 16. I used medium slow swings that covered the entire board and not tiny swings just over the coins. I also kept the coil on each detector level during swings and about 2" above the board. Sensitivity was kept at conservative levels on all three detectors due to EMI.

XP Deus was using the 9" HF coil. I don't presently have the HF elliptical coil.
I used two different programs. Deus Fast: disc. 10, sens. 85, freq. 15, 3 tones, all other settings default and the Sonar program: disc. 10, sens. 85, freq. 27, 2 tone... iron volume was on a low but audible volume setting in both programs.

The Deus scored 15 using both programs with the Indian Head penny and 14 using both programs with the Mercury dime. It struggled a bit with the coins in position 2 on sweeps 3 and 4. With the coin in position 1 it was perfect.

Simplex, software version 2.77 with 9.5"X5" elliptical coil used Field with disc. 5, sens. 5, 2 tones, iron volume on setting 1.

The Simplex scored 14 on both coins. It was perfect with both coins in position 1 and could not give a non-ferrous tone with the coins in position 2 on sweep 4.

Equinox 800 and 6" coil was using Field 2 Multi, disc. -4, sens. 17, 2 tones, recovery speed 6, F2 iron bias 6, iron volume was on a low but audible volume setting.

The Equinox scored 14 on both coins. It was perfect with both coins in position 1 and could not give a non-ferrous tone with the coins in position 2 on sweep 4.

I would not hesitate to use any of these three detectors in a bed of nails situation.

If Nokta Makro's soon to be released simultaneous multi frequency detector scores as well as the Simplex does on Monte's test, I will be very happy.

Cherry Picker · Aug 30, 2021

The Minelab Equinox 800 is a great detector for $800, but I've got to say I'm pretty impressed with my Nokta Simplex for $250. I had taken the NOX 800 out to this old fort site quite a few times, and it did as well as most others I'd had taken including the Deus. I am taking my $250 detector day after day and kicking some serious butt.

Tot lots are my main hunt lately. Again, the NOX 800 did great, but nothing any better than my Nokta at $250. I've been impressed with the smalls this detector can hit. Never found a .25 caliber ball with anything but the Simplex, and yesterday I found a very small heart pendant that I was very impressed with how good a tone I got.

The balls below were all found in the last three hunts at the fort site we have hunted for 35 years with everything including the 800. Many of these balls were found with iron in the same hole. Not bad for a $250 machine.

Not trying to say the Simplex is any match for the 800, but at $250 vs $800? Very Not bad.

stetam · Aug 30, 2021

I have been very happy using Minelabs Multi-IQ machines. I purchased a Nokta Simplex for my son in law as a starter machine because of the price and the good reviews I saw. It was ok but it has a way to go to equal the Nox IMO. And
"I don't think their build quality is on par with Nokta / Makro, either." Where do you get that? The Simplex felt flimsy compared to my Equinox. I do hope they bring out a machine to equal Minelab and offer some competition but they have a way to go.

Steve

jmaryt · Aug 30, 2021

longbow62 said:
Wow Monte if your Apex is in fact out performing the Equinox then your one of the few getting that kind of performance over the Equinox. I mean why isn't everybody selling their Multi-IQ Equinox or Vanquish and getting a Multi-Flex Apex if that was anywhere close to the norm? The simple fact is it's not the norm. If it was this forum would be lit up with folks saying as much.

excellent point! "performance IS everything!"

(h.h.!)
j.t.

detectingMO · Aug 30, 2021

Nokta has done about all than can do with the T2 platform. Will be interesting to see what they can do on their own.

That said, why has first texas done nothing all these years with "better" engineering talent? A few people at Nokta took their tech to new levels in very short time.

A moot thought since First Texas is dead and has been for years though.

Monte · Aug 30, 2021

longbow62: said:
Wow Monte if your Apex is in fact out performing the Equinox then your one of the few getting that kind of performance over the Equinox

First, to be clear for readers, I am not saying the Equinox is junk or does not perform well for some applications. I had an EQ-800 w/11" and 6" coils. It worked okay, for some applications, and if I was primarily an urban Coin Shooter, I would probably have kept it in my Detector Team. However, for me and the types of sites I most often search, I have several detectors that can perform a number of tasks and take on the tough challenges that do extremely well. It was those units I put to the test against the EQ 800, and in the tests I did for comparison, and in the very challenging sites I hunted, it did not quite match their performance.

That included some side-by-side, in the field, comparisons in a ranch and farming Ghost Town as well as three gold mining era ghost towns where old and new iron nails are very abundant, as well as a lot of decaying shards of Rusty Tin.

longbow62 said:
I mean why isn't everybody selling their Multi-IQ Equinox or Vanquish and getting a Multi-Flex Apex if that was anywhere close to the norm? The simple fact is it's not the norm. If it was this forum would be lit up with folks saying as much.

The performance of the Apex with Ripper coil is "the norm" for me and where I hunt. I think one of the reasons is that there has not been as many people using a Garrett Apex, in some tough sites, and putting in the time to learn it well compared to the number of people who latched onto an Equinox either because they were Minelab loyal users, or just happened to pick up an Equinox because of the many positive comments made on forums by both knowledgeable users as well as those who aren't so knowledgeable but they just happen to like the Equinox and boast about it.

I had an Equinox 800 and it's a good detector but it's just does not fit me and my needs. I have six different models in my Detector Outfit that work well, and serve my needs well, so I'm satisfied. I also have a half-dozen or more friends who own and use an Equinox 800. Most of them like it a lot for what they do but a couple of them tell me that it's just an okay detector and nothing spectacular. They learned it, and they know it strengths and weaknesses and put it to use when they feel it will benefit them where they're hunting.

Not one of those friends owns an EQ-800 exclusively, most of them have two to four models in their detector group that they favor for different types of sites and applications.

My post was not to bad-mouth the Equinox but to simply point out that while it does some things well, it does not do everything well.

Monte

Monte · Aug 30, 2021

jmaclen: said:
I hear comments from all over the metal detecting forums that Multi IQ does not work well in bed of nails situations.

From various Forums, plus e-mails and person-to-person conversations, I hear it both ways. One point of interest is just what someone considers a "bed of iron nails" to be. I have been hunting a good number of RR, Mining Era, and Ranching Farming ghost towns since May of '69 as i encountered them, and since July of '83 very deliberately ... as in, most-of-the-time. The majority of them are in very mineralized ground, and the ground make-up has varied as I worked them in Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming. (Those in Bold account for maybe 75%-80% of all my ghost town hunts.)

Most of the old townsites will have some 'pockets' or 'close scatterings' of Iron Nails and other ferrous debris, but most of them have such an eye-awakening at the challenge of very dense Iron Nails and debris that it shocks many who join the hunt and realize 'my' interpretation of 'a bed-of-nails' easily exceeds their prior interpretation of such a challenge.

Thus, a "bed-of-nails" will be different to each of us unless we experience the same location, side-by-side. Also, what we are using, detector and coil, we are going to experience different performance. And 'modern' or 'high-tech' doesn't always play a major role. For example, I can grab my 1-knob Compass Coin Hustler TR, lay an Indian Head 1¢ on the ground, and put many Iron Nails on it and close to it and still get a good hit on the 1¢ coin while 'modern' detectors can't come close to matching that performance. Therefore, in a really terrible "bed-of-nails" that old, simple, non-Discriminating detector can clearly be the winner.

jmaclen: said:
That has not been my experience with the Equinox 800 set up for what I have found to be some good working settings that can give me dependable ferrous/non-ferrous 2 tone discrimination. These are not default settings. The example below is just one way to use the Equinox in a bed of nails situation. There are others.

And here we get to some different views of settings and performance with models such as the XP Deus and Minelab Equinox 800. Both of these offer quite an array of adjustment settings which can allow a user to "fine tune" the detector settings for performance at a particular location. and for a particular test set-up or an individual ferrous / non-ferrous encounter.

But quite often I find people who have 'tuned-up and dialed-in' some settings that might look good on a singular test ..... but they will change the settings or coil if they set out to hunt a particular site. Then if they change locations, they change to a very different set of settings.

For me and my approach to selecting a detector and coil for 'all-purpose' success, I prefer a 'Simple' detector that can achieve very good 'general-purpose' Performance in a wide range of site environments and still do we3ll without making a lot of program changes or settings adjustments. Having a detector and coil set-up that is 'Functional' and ready-to-go pretty much at 'turn-on' has worked well for me for a long, long time.

Not just one detector, but a few that have proven their abilities in some tough applications.

jmaclen: said:
First, I would never use a Vanquish 340, 440 or 540 in a thick bed of nails whether they were pre-1900s or modern unless that was the only detector I had.

Nope, I wouldn't either. I kept a 540 for a while as a loaner-unit, but have replaced that with an Apex because, quite frankly, I get, and those I loan it to get, much better performance in the ferrous debris places we hunt. Can they produce a better and more accurate VDI on mid-depth and deeper targets? Yes, but in the very littered places I hunt, 'depth' isn't usually achievable due to the amount of shallower, close-proximity targets.

jmaclen: said:
I do not presently have a Garrett Ace APEX. I have used one however for testing. I am waiting for the AT series SMF.

I am also looking forward to Garrett's SMF entry in the future that will be an upper-end model. But, until then, the Apex w/5X8 DD 'Ripper' coil is providing very decent performance.

jmaclen: said:
I just completed another round of Monte's nail board testing using 3 excellent detectors.....XP Deus, Nokta Makro Simplex (entry level price but intermediate level performance in iron for sure), and the Equinox 800 using an Indian Head penny and Mercury dime for non-ferrous testing along with 4 different sized pre-1900s square nails.

My XP ORX]/i] works well with the 5X9½ DD HF coil, and as you explained, the budget-priced N / M Simplex + w/5X9½ DD is also a very solid performer in some Iron Nail environments.

Without any serious adjustments on the EQ-800 I had, and using the 6" DD coil, it still fell a little short of matching what my best detectors can do in tough tests. I use an Indian Head of Zinc Cent for their comparable conductivity, a Silver Dime that is a bit more conductive but slightly smaller-in-size, and then I do my 'tough-test' which is using a Silver Half-Dime in the #1 position. Its much smaller diameter and very thin size combine to make it a really tough target to do well on. My Nokta FORS CoRe w/'OOR' DD and FORS Relic w/5" DD, in either 3-Tone or even better in 2-Tone, will give 8-out-of-8 good hits or, if just a little 'off' maybe only 7-out-of-8. The EQ-800 threw in the towel on that one.

jmaclen: said:

I tested both coins in positions 1 and position 2 listening for ferrous/non-ferrous tones in both swing directions.

Click to expand...

Usually, using 2-Tone provides the best audio response, but a good detector in 3-Tone can also do well.

jmaclen: said:

If I heard non-ferrous tones in two opposite swing directions I gave a score of 2, one direction=1, no direction=0. A perfect score is 16. I used medium slow swings that covered the entire board and not tiny swings just over the coins. I also kept the coil on each detector level during swings and about 2" above the board. Sensitivity was kept at conservative levels on all three detectors due to EMI.

Click to expand...

Slow-sweep, using a complete side-to-side sweep past the edge of the Nail Board, and maintaining about 2" is ideal.

jmaclen: said:

The Deus scored 15 using both programs with the Indian Head penny and 14 using both programs with the Mercury dime. It struggled a bit with the coins in position 2 on sweeps 3 and 4. With the coin in position 1 it was perfect.

Simplex, software version 2.77 with 9.5"X5" elliptical coil used Field with disc. 5, sens. 5, 2 tones, iron volume on setting 1.

The Simplex scored 14 on both coins. It was perfect with both coins in position 1 and could not give a non-ferrous tone with the coins in position 2 on sweep 4.

Equinox 800 and 6" coil was using Field 2 Multi, disc. -4, sens. 17, 2 tones, recovery speed 6, F2 iron bias 6, iron volume was on a low but audible volume setting.

The Equinox scored 14 on both coins. It was perfect with both coins in position 1 and could not give a non-ferrous tone with the coins in position 2 on sweep 4.

I would not hesitate to use any of these three detectors in a bed of nails situation.

Click to expand...

I would also use any of those .... especially if I didn't have some of the units that are in my regular-use outfit.

jmaclen: said:

If Nokta Makro's soon to be released simultaneous multi frequency detector scores as well as the Simplex does on Monte's test, I will be very happy.

Click to expand...

If they can give us that level of performance in a competitive SMF model, I'll probably add one more detector to my 'team'.

Monte

Monte · Aug 31, 2021

detectingMO: said:
Nokta has done about all than can do with the T2 platform. Will be interesting to see what they can do on their own.

The Nokta FORS CoRe was kind-of based on the Teknetics T2, but definitely not that close of a copy. January 1st, January 8th and January 10th of 2015 are all memorable dates for me with regard to Nokta's products and especially the FORS CoRe. It was duplicated in January of 2016 with the soon-to-be FORS Relic.

I ended 2014 with a Fisher F-75 and two Teknetics T2 'Classic' units, along with a a Fisher Gold Bug Pro, F19, Teknetics Omega 8000, White's XLT, XL Pro, 5900 Di SL, modified IDX Pro, modified Classic ID, MXT Pro, M6 and MX-5, Tesoro Bandido, Bandido II, Bandido II µMAX, Silver Sabre µMAX, two Minelab Explorer II's, and maybe four or five other detectors.

Just before midnight January 1st PST, my time, I was talking with OregonGregg and got an e-mail from Dilek at Nokta with an offer. We quickly back-and-forthed e-mails for the next several minutes and she offered what I wanted .... The opportunity to evaluate a 15 kHz Nokta FORS CoRe.

Having used Tek. T2's since they were introduced in 2006, I was very well aware of what they offered and how they performed, and I had been maintaining a recent T2 'Classic' w/5" DD for very littered Relic Hunting sites, such as ghost towns, encampments, etc. I was very interested in what I was hearing and seeing related to the FORS CoRe.

January 8th, UPS delivered the packages sent to me from Nokta, and I was already prepared to start some evaluations and compare the CoRe with everything else I had. Because I have been relying on smaller-size coils since '68, I planned to mount the 4.7X5.2 'OOR' coil because I also devoted 85% or more of my hunt-time for working very littered, brushy, and iron-contaminated sites. Before sunset I had the CoRe assembled and many indoor test comparisons done and moved outside to include some ground mineral challenges. On Friday the 9th I headed out to three or four places I wanted to hunt where I knew I'd encounter a lot of Iron Nails and other trash that was discarded between 1890 and about 1940.. Along with the CoRe I took all of the detectors I had that I seriously questioned their performance against the FORS CoRe.

January 10th I started the day by gathering up all the detectors and extra search coils and parts I wanted to thin out because all the detectors that didn't match the performance of the CoRe no longer had a place in my Detector Team. The first on that list were my two Tek. T2's because they were the first I felt needed to go because they fell short of what the CoRe could do.

Both offered All Metal, 2-Tone and 3-Tone modes, both had a '40' Ferrous / Non-Ferrous break-point, and both operated on 4-AA batteries. But comparing them with their smaller coils in Iron Nails and on other assorted targets, the engineering Alper Tozan and his team did with the CoRe resulted in better depth-of-detection, and better unmaking ability, and much better separation in iron-challenged conditions.

detectingMO: said:
That said, why has first texas done nothing all these years with "better" engineering talent? A few people at Nokta took their tech to new levels in very short time.

A moot thought since First Texas is dead and has been for years though.

I've owned the two Racer models, Impact, Multi-Kruzer, Anfibio 19, two Anfibio Multi's and two Simplex + units. They all work well and are solid build-quality devices. My Simplex + is loaned out and my pristine 'back-up' Simplex + is for sale. The other models are gone. Did they workj? Yes, however none of them out-performed either my Nokta FORS CoRe, or my 19 kHz FORS Relic that I have had since January of '16. I just got another choice-condition FORS Relic in yesterday, and I plan to keep a CoRe and Relic as working units in my Regular-Use Team for as long as I can hunt. I'm also hoping Nokta / Makro will come up with a very competitive SMF device soon, and that one I will most likely add to my outfit.

As for First Texas Product's, I agree with you that it's a surprise that with their $$$$ and engineering team, they haven't brought us anything really new and different in the VLF market for a long time. The T2, and F75, do have one of the all-time best physical package deigns and simple control layout, and should they come up with anything new and creative, I hope for a land-based model in that configuration. But right now, I sure haven't seen anything remarkable happening there, or hear any good rumors of anything to come soon. Time is running out for them, if they can't get into the modern detector market.

Monte

jmaclen · Aug 31, 2021

Monte said:
Without any serious adjustments on the EQ-800 I had, and using the 6" DD coil, it still fell a little short of matching what my best detectors can do in tough tests. I use an Indian Head of Zinc Cent for their comparable conductivity, a Silver Dime that is a bit more conductive but slightly smaller-in-size, and then I do my 'tough-test' which is using a Silver Half-Dime in the #1 position. Its much smaller diameter and very thin size combine to make it a really tough target to do well on. My Nokta FORS CoRe w/'OOR' DD and FORS Relic w/5" DD, in either 3-Tone or even better in 2-Tone, will give 8-out-of-8 good hits or, if just a little 'off' maybe only 7-out-of-8. The EQ-800 threw in the towel on that one.

Hi Monte,

I always enjoy reading and learning from your outstanding posts. I have to disagree occasionally and here is one of those times.

I have used a half dime for your nail board test before and my results were different from yours concerning the Equinox. However, I have rarely used the Equinox 800 in tough detecting scenarios like our Western USA nail beds plus high mineralization without some serious trial and error adjustments and knowledge that can only come from thousands of hours on a detector. But, even with some minor adjustments, my Equinox 800 with 6" coil can easily handle my version of your nail board test using various types of nails from modern to 1800s and a US half dime.

I just repeated this test using the same parameters and settings for all three detectors that I posted earlier and their scores were the same as using a Mercury dime. I did have to use very careful coil control and slow down a bit.

Deus scored 15 (perfect score with half dime in position 1)
Simplex scored 14 (perfect score with half dime in position 1)
Equinox 800 scored 14 (perfect score with half dime in position 1)

Those are my results on your excellent nail board test and they mirror my experiences in the field with these detectors. I always have at least two of them with me on any serious relic or gold prospecting hunt where iron contamination is likely.

What about the new Nokta ?

longbow62

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