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Old 05-22-2020, 08:33 AM
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Default Pres. Lincoln criticized for his planl

seems like things never change. Hard headed presidents override plans of their military. From the Cleveland Daily Leader, July 27, 1864. Look at the wasteful results in terms of killed and wounded.

Lincoln was under a lot of political pressure at this time and would have probably lost his re-election had Sherman not delivered Atlanta when he did.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:37 AM
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I was watching a History Detectives (I think) episode where they discussed another incident of Lincoln's interfering. A certain officer had deserted, I think, and because he was somehow connected or had pull with Lincoln, got back in the army over the objections of a higher military officer (a general, I think) who didn't want him. It was Lincoln who got him back in.

He is probably most famous for taking bribes from a steamboat captain to overload his boat with prisoners being repatriated to the North. The captain got paid by the number of passengers. The boat was the Sultana.

The commentators speculated that had Lincoln not been assassinated, the scandal would have likely cost him the next election.

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Old 05-22-2020, 09:47 AM
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Also, if they had quickly taken Richmond, the Confederacy would have just moved the capital elsewhere. What Grant did was basically turn things in VA to a war of attrition, which he could win and the Confederacy could not. There was going to have to be an overland campaign somewhere anyway.

This is not to say that any amount of casualties is acceptable. In the Fredericksburg assault by Burnside, the battle was bungled pretty much from start to finish. When Lincoln wanted Burnside to be his new commander, he really didn't want the job, because he was more of a supply/quartermaster type general. Lincoln insisted.

Burnside also caught flak (fairly) from actions at Antietam, where he lost a lot of men taking a bridge over a shallow creek which could have been waded across at just about any point (not sure, but I think there were other places supplies could have been moved across without the bridge). He also caught flak for the Battle of the Crater at Petersburg (unfairly, this was Meade's bungling and interference).

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Old 05-22-2020, 02:01 PM
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Just did a quick search online about Lincoln, and there are a lot of various articles available, here is one of them that came up: seems he tried a similar thing I had read in the past that JFK tried when he was president, here is an interesting quote from an online article:

"Abraham Lincoln

During the Civil War (1861-1865), President Lincoln needed money to finance the War from the North. The Bankers were going to charge him 24% to 36% interest. Lincoln was horrified and went away greatly distressed, for he was a man of principle and would not think of plunging his beloved country into a debt that the country would find impossible to pay back.

Eventually President Lincoln was advised to get Congress to pass a law authorizing the printing of full legal tender Treasury notes to pay for the War effort. Lincoln recognized the great benefits of this issue. At one point he wrote:

“... (we) gave the people of this Republic the greatest blessing they have ever had – their own paper money to pay their own debts...”
The Treasury notes were printed with green ink on the back, so the people called them “Greenbacks”.

Lincoln printed 400 million dollars worth of Greenbacks (the exact amount being $449,338,902), money that he delegated to be created, a debt-free and interest-free money to finance the War. It served as legal tender for all debts, public and private. He printed it, paid it to the soldiers, to the U.S. Civil Service employees, and bought supplies for war.

Shortly after that happened, “The London Times” printed the following: “If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all coun!tries will go to North America. That govern!ment must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe.”

The Bankers obviously understood. The only thing, I repeat, the only thing that is a threat to their power is sovereign govern!ments printing interest-free and debt-free paper money. They know it would break the power of the international Bankers."
(end of quote)

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Old 05-22-2020, 04:25 PM
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Relative to Lincoln's war bungles, Hitler, with his little mind, was unable to grasp the concepts that his Generals were using to give him advice, so he ignored them, screwing up the German war effort considerably! Luckily for the rest of the world, Hitler was his own countries worst enemy, if one wanted Germany to win.

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Old 05-22-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by achaios View post
I was watching a History Detectives (I think) episode where they discussed another incident of Lincoln's interfering. A certain officer had deserted, I think, and because he was somehow connected or had pull with Lincoln, got back in the army over the objections of a higher military officer (a general, I think) who didn't want him. It was Lincoln who got him back in.

He is probably most famous for taking bribes from a steamboat captain to overload his boat with prisoners being repatriated to the North. The captain got paid by the number of passengers. The boat was the Sultana.

The commentators speculated that had Lincoln not been assassinated, the scandal would have likely cost him the next election.

-- Tom
The mention of the Sultana reminded me of of what I read years ago. It was 1 of the greatest maritime disasters. So I Googled it again. Wikipedia. Fascinating story. Since the Mississippi river has changed greatly over the years , much of this ship was found in 1985 under a soybean field 35 FEET DEEP ! And some 4 MILES from the river. This info could really help treasure hunters.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by KingTotsalot View post
Relative to Lincoln's war bungles, Hitler, with his little mind, was unable to grasp the concepts that his Generals were using to give him advice, so he ignored them, screwing up the German war effort considerably! Luckily for the rest of the world, Hitler was his own countries worst enemy, if one wanted Germany to win.
Stalingrad was a good example. The Generals wanted a two-pronged operation to break out of the encirclement, one directed east and one directed west. Hitler was afraid that if he ever left Stalingrad, he'd never get back in, so he only approved the prong of the operation directed east. Of course, as we all know now, that didn't work.

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Old 05-27-2020, 08:37 AM
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Notice that all the negative comments about Lincoln are from southerners! LOL! What a surprise!

Sorry, but history shows that Lincoln was probably the greatest president who ever lived. He was the only president to be in office during a civil war and somehow managed to keep the country intact and to flourish.

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Old 05-27-2020, 10:38 AM
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Not a southerner, but I think the North won the war despite having Lincoln as president. He baited the south into attacking at Fort Sumter, which started the war, and his complete ineptness at choosing a general that could defeat the south extended the war much longer than it should have been. A lot of people declare him a great president because he happened to be the one in office during the war, but if John Fremont would have been elected in 1856, he would probably be on the penny. The south was never going to win because of their manufacturing limitations, and Grant and Sherman finally were able to end it, not Lincoln.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:47 PM
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Anyone interested should watch the History Channel miniseries Grant. Part 3 is tonight. It is very good.

Lincoln wanted someone who would take on Lee as most of his previous selections to head the Union army were better at planning and logistics than battle where they were fairly timid. Grant was that man and most didn't have the stomach for the battles necessary to end the war. Lincoln was heavily involved in military decisions which may or may not have been wise.

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Old 05-27-2020, 03:32 PM
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his complete ineptness at choosing a general that could defeat the south extended the war much longer than it should have been.
Nonsense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It wasn't Lincoln's fault that two of his generals were wimps who froze in battle (Burnside and McClellen). The only mistake Lincoln made was showing mercy on southerners. As soon as he decided to take a hard line (Sherman), the war was as good as over.

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Old 05-27-2020, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Nonsense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It wasn't Lincoln's fault that two of his generals were wimps who froze in battle (Burnside and McClellen). The only mistake Lincoln made was showing mercy on southerners. As soon as he decided to take a hard line (Sherman), the war was as good as over.
Lincoln didn't show mercy, until after the Chattanooga campaign they could do little else. The Confederate Army of Tennessee was still strong enough to block any moves such as Sherman's march to the sea until they were defeated.

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Old 05-27-2020, 04:59 PM
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Everyone has a different view of history, I guess.

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Old 05-27-2020, 06:16 PM
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I too am curious about the missteps of Lincoln, as a southerner. Could someone summarize or link to some details?

Have assumed that he's most known for the emancipation proclamation and being in power during the civil war victory.
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Nonsense. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It wasn't Lincoln's fault that two of his generals were wimps who froze in battle (Burnside and McClellen). The only mistake Lincoln made was showing mercy on southerners. As soon as he decided to take a hard line (Sherman), the war was as good as over.
Burnside didn't want the job. Lincoln insisted. While Hooker may have demonstrated some ability later on, he badmouthed the current leadership at Fredericksburg (one of his quotes, regarding an attack on the infamous sunken road was something to the effect of "Having lost as many men as my orders required me to lose, I retired from battle"), and showed a lack of leadership ability at Chancellorsville.

Both Grant and Sherman knew they could win a war of attrition. Lincoln shared a trait with many later presidents in assuming that as Commander in Chief, he also automatically knew military tactics. I think for the most part, FDR left the wars to the generals.

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Old 05-27-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by shellhouse View post
I too am curious about the missteps of Lincoln, as a southerner. Could someone summarize or link to some details?

Have assumed that he's most known for the emancipation proclamation and being in power during the civil war victory.
One misconception about the emancipation proclamation is that it freed all the slaves. It did not. It only freed those in the states that were in rebellion, meaning that slaves there were still slaves until the territory was controlled by Union forces, while slaves in Maryland (and I think, Kentucky) were still slaves until much later.

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Old 05-27-2020, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by achaios View post
One misconception about the emancipation proclamation is that it freed all the slaves. It did not. It only freed those in the states that were in rebellion, meaning that slaves there were still slaves until the territory was controlled by Union forces, while slaves in Maryland (and I think, Kentucky) were still slaves until much later.

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True, the emancipation proclamation was a war time measure meant to impact the Confederacy and as such it exempted states that were still part of the Union (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware) and areas that were in Union control (Tennessee, parts of Louisiana around New Orleans and parts of Virginia and others). I believe it was over half a million that weren't freed until the 13th Amendment in late 1865.

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Old 05-28-2020, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
The mention of the Sultana reminded me of of what I read years ago. It was 1 of the greatest maritime disasters. So I Googled it again. Wikipedia. Fascinating story. Since the Mississippi river has changed greatly over the years , much of this ship was found in 1985 under a soybean field 35 FEET DEEP ! And some 4 MILES from the river. This info could really help treasure hunters.
Check out the Arabia.

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Old 06-02-2020, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee1968 View post
Not a southerner, but I think the North won the war despite having Lincoln as president. He baited the south into attacking at Fort Sumter, which started the war, and his complete ineptness at choosing a general that could defeat the south extended the war much longer than it should have been. A lot of people declare him a great president because he happened to be the one in office during the war, but if John Fremont would have been elected in 1856, he would probably be on the penny. The south was never going to win because of their manufacturing limitations, and Grant and Sherman finally were able to end it, not Lincoln.
The confederacy didn't have a chance after Sherman decided to head south via Chattanooga. He moved his supplies via railroads he took from the confederates and when he got to Atlanta he cut off all four rail sources to Atlanta and that was basically the end game to the Civil War. Sherman also had some great generals under him who could execute his plans. Not so with the Battle of Peachtree Creek. Gen. Johnston had a good plan for catching the Union with their Backs to the Chattahoochee river and Gen. Hood followed up with that plan. But Hood and the Generals leading the troops could not execute the plan properly and they waited four hours too late and gave time for the Union soldiers to mostly dig in defensive positions. In the Civil War in most battles the defense usually had less casualties than the attackers.

I personally think it would had been a disaster if the south won or there was a truce and we ended up as two countries.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JimR_TN View post
Lincoln didn't show mercy, until after the Chattanooga campaign they could do little else. The Confederate Army of Tennessee was still strong enough to block any moves such as Sherman's march to the sea until they were defeated.
Sherman and his generals in the March from Chattanooga to Atlanta were very skilled at rolling up the flanks of the Confederate battle lines. The Confederate strategy of Gen. Johnston was to just mainly fighting delaying actions and then retreat some more to repeat this process. This is why President Davis decide to relieve him of his command days before the battle of Atlanta started. Hood inherited a mess and did his best. But Union had more soldiers, better generals and much better supplies and logistics. For instance in Decatur, Georgia the Union troops had over 1,000 supply wagons camped near the city of Decatur.

Researching Civil War location in Metro Atlanta is fascinating, rewarding and frustrating all at the same time.
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