Big Boys Hobbies

Question about Vanquish 440 - deep rusty nails

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LovestheShiny!

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Okay, I bought a new Vanquish 440 for my wife to learn, and for any family or guests that want to go out metal detecting with me. A nice machine, good reviews, simple to put together, and light weight. I have used and continue to use my AT Pro.

I have taken the Vanquish out twice, after watching some good YouTube videos on operation of the detector. The Vanquish has auto noise cancel, a pre set ground balance, and 4 search modes in Multi Freq. I have gone to a couple of local parks to learn the machine so I can teach basics on how to use it to others. My issue is that it detects deep rusty nails like a good target, with solid high tones, sometimes in several directional sweeps of the coil over the target. It does work on coins, have found 5 clad quarters and 7 clad dimes, all deep, in addition to the rusty nails. It does detect deeper than the AT Pro, but so far all the really good sounding deep targets have been rusty nails or a group of rusty nails. I do know about the horseshoe button and have gotten grunts on some of the targets that initially produced a nice high tone, so have passed those up.

Also, I get about 5 high tones on each sweep of the coil. After going back to double check each one, I find that the machine is falsing on iron. I can turn the sensitivity down quite a bit and that goes away, but then I lose depth on getting those old deep silvers. Is this just an issue with this machine and multi freq, or what? I do know my Nox 600 and Nox 800 buddies do dig the occasional deep rusty nail. Thanks for any help!
 
I don't know about the Vanquish but I know with the Nox 800 deep bent rusty nails can sounds like a good target so it's not just the Vanquish
 
Yep, I get it about rusty nails in general, though I am rarely fooled with a rusty nail on the AT Pro, perhaps one in about 500 targets. The grunt of iron is plain as day on the Pro. This issue with the Vanquish detecting deep rusty nails and having them sound really good was quite discouraging.
 
bigsteve said:
i have a vanquish 440 and never had a deep rusty nail sound good
Click to expand...

Ok... what are your settings? For me, I put the coil on the ground, turn on the power button, let it noise cancel, then pick my mode (coins jewelry relics), then turn down the sensitivity by a couple of clicks. When I turn the sensitivity down to about half, the falsing on iron goes away, but then I lose depth.
 
here are my settings turn on power let it noise cancel sensitivity one bar down from full in coin mode
 
OK, thanks Steve! I do that and my machine falses with high tones, sometimes 4-5 on each swing of the coil. Maybe I have a problem with my detector.
 
It will false alot on iron halos. If your in doubt on a target try to pin pioint it then when you sweep back over the target take notice of where the high tones are going off if it is iron. It should be on the outside of the iron and not over top of it
 
I have a 340 and used to have the 540. While I wouldn't say I mastered the 540, I became proficient enough to realize that it's lack of ground balancing ability caused problems in my moderate to high mineralized soil. Since you used the AT Pro this might give you an idea: when I ground balance my AT Max, I normally get in the upper 70s to lower 80s and upper 80s is common.

My soil is also dual-profiled in that the upper few inches is mild dark brown/black soil. But below that is highly mineralized clay. It's so mineralized that if I'm searching in the clay with my Garrett Carrot on max sensitivity, I have to turn it on with the tip touching the clay to stop the falsing in the pinpointer.

All of this to say: my 540 can't handle this clay well. It's like the clay adds a few "VDI points" to the targets so what might seem like a penny or dime, is actually a rusted piece of iron. This was far more of a problem with damp or wet soil. In some places, it's so bad, that my 540 would ring up in the upper 20s and lower 30s even thought there was no target (not even an iron one) in the clay soil.

I don't know if your soil is contributing to your original question, but it's something to think about. For me, my soil conditions were bad enough where I decided to sell my 540 and use my AT Max instead. The AT Max isn't perfect in my soil, but gives me a more accurate picture of deep targets than my 540 did. And I think the primary reason is the AT Max's ability to ground balance.

Now, if I could only have the 540 that could ground balance, I'd be set. But that means shelling out for an Equinox 600...
 
i would try it at another site and when you dig out the nail are you re scanning the hole
 
bigtim1973 said:
It will false alot on iron halos. If your in doubt on a target try to pin pioint it then when you sweep back over the target take notice of where the high tones are going off if it is iron. It should be on the outside of the iron and not over top of it
Click to expand...

OK, thanks I will keep that in mind as I learn this new machine.

mh9162013 said:
I have a 340 and used to have the 540. While I wouldn't say I mastered the 540, I became proficient enough to realize that it's lack of ground balancing ability caused problems in my moderate to high mineralized soil. Since you used the AT Pro this might give you an idea: when I ground balance my AT Max, I normally get in the upper 70s to lower 80s and upper 80s is common.

My soil is also dual-profiled in that the upper few inches is mild dark brown/black soil. But below that is highly mineralized clay. It's so mineralized that if I'm searching in the clay with my Garrett Carrot on max sensitivity, I have to turn it on with the tip touching the clay to stop the falsing in the pinpointer.

All of this to say: my 540 can't handle this clay well. It's like the clay adds a few "VDI points" to the targets so what might seem like a penny or dime, is actually a rusted piece of iron. This was far more of a problem with damp or wet soil. In some places, it's so bad, that my 540 would ring up in the upper 20s and lower 30s even thought there was no target (not even an iron one) in the clay soil.

I don't know if your soil is contributing to your original question, but it's something to think about. For me, my soil conditions were bad enough where I decided to sell my 540 and use my AT Max instead. The AT Max isn't perfect in my soil, but gives me a more accurate picture of deep targets than my 540 did. And I think the primary reason is the AT Max's ability to ground balance.

Now, if I could only have the 540 that could ground balance, I'd be set. But that means shelling out for an Equinox 600...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that detailed info! My AT Pro ground balances at about 80-85 here in Western Montana. Some areas of the state, like Butte, have super mineralized soil and my GB is about 94 there. It pretty much blinds the AT Pro so that it's detection depth is lessened. I was hoping with the Multi Freq on the Vanquish that I could deal with highly mineralized soil conditions.
 
LovestheShiny! said:
Thanks for that detailed info! My AT Pro ground balances at about 80-85 here in Western Montana. Some areas of the state, like Butte, have super mineralized soil and my GB is about 94 there. It pretty much blinds the AT Pro so that it's detection depth is lessened. I was hoping with the Multi Freq on the Vanquish that I could deal with highly mineralized soil conditions.
Click to expand...

The Vanquish's MIQ (Multi-IQ) tech can handle mineralized soil up to a point. But once you get into the upper mineralization levels (I'm guessing...anything above the AT Pro or Max's 70?), you start to see the limitations.

There have been discussions about how MIQ really works, and some have theorized that the technology will inherently factor in ground mineralization to give a more accurate ID of a target. But like you, I and others have observed, there are limitations to that process. Enough so that conventional ground balancing is still needed.

So yeah, sounds like your soil is worse than mine, so I'm not surprised you're seeing what you're seeing. A non-ground balancing MIQ machine is still far better than a conventional VLF that can't ground balance.

I used to run the Fisher F2, so when I went to the 340/540, it was definitely an improvement. But comparing the 540 to my AT Max? I don't have many hours on my AT Max, but so far, I have more confidence in the AT Max. One reason for this isn't just its ability to ground balance, but its all-metal mode. I can use that to more easily tell if a deep target is clay or an actual piece of metal.
 
mh9162013 said:
The Vanquish's MIQ (Multi-IQ) tech can handle mineralized soil up to a point. But once you get into the upper mineralization levels (I'm guessing...anything above the AT Pro or Max's 70?), you start to see the limitations.

There have been discussions about how MIQ really works, and some have theorized that the technology will inherently factor in ground mineralization to give a more accurate ID of a target. But like you, I and others have observed, there are limitations to that process. Enough so that conventional ground balancing is still needed.

So yeah, sounds like your soil is worse than mine, so I'm not surprised you're seeing what you're seeing. A non-ground balancing MIQ machine is still far better than a conventional VLF that can't ground balance.

I used to run the Fisher F2, so when I went to the 340/540, it was definitely an improvement. But comparing the 540 to my AT Max? I don't have many hours on my AT Max, but so far, I have more confidence in the AT Max. One reason for this isn't just its ability to ground balance, but it's all-metal mode. I can use that to more easily tell if a deep target is clay or an actual piece of metal.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks again for that info. I have no problem with the AT Pro, it's ID and tones are wonderful, great pinpointing and I pretty much know 99% of the time what is under my coil. Was hoping the Vanquish would give me that Multi IQ extra depth so I could use it in certain areas where perhaps additional turf or soil was added.
 
LovestheShiny! said:
Ok, thanks again for that info. I have no problem with the AT Pro, it's ID and tones are wonderful, great pinpointing and I pretty much know 99% of the time what is under my coil. Was hoping the Vanquish would give me that Multi IQ extra depth so I could use it in certain areas where perhaps additional turf or soil was added.
Click to expand...

MIQ in mild soil is amazing. When using the 340 or 540 in a tot lot (with sand, wood chips or ground up tires), the VDI is like x-ray vision.
 
Where I detect with the Vanquish 440 and 540, I like to modify the search modes so that I can hear some of the iron targets giving low iron tones. In most places in the Eastern USA where I have used the 440/540, just pressing the horseshoe button will make this happen easily. When I try that here in Colorado I get lots of ground noise which sounds like iron targets with -9 and -8 target IDs. If I use the factory search mode settings some of those same will occur as occasional distorted high tone falling.

For deeper iron targets like bent nails, if I am using a preset search mode with iron targets rejected, I listen for distorted high tones, tone dropouts and any kind of tone which isn’t totally repeatable and solid along with target IDs that fluctuate between 18 and 39. Lots of 39s and 40s are almost always deep rusted iron. All of these let me know that the target is probably iron. Deeper clad and silver usually have more solid numbers between 24 and 36 and also have less distorted high tones.
 
jmaclen said:
Where I detect with the Vanquish 440 and 540, I like to modify the search modes so that I can hear some of the iron targets giving low iron tones. In most places just pressing the horseshoe button will make this happen easily. When I try that I get lots of ground noise which sounds like iron targets with -9 and -8 target IDs. If I use the factory search mode settings some of those same will occur as occasional distorted high tone falling.

For deeper iron targets like bent nails, if I am using a preset search mode with iron targets rejected, I listen for distorted high tones, tone dropouts and any kind of tone which isn’t totally repeatable and solid along with target IDs that fluctuate between 18 and 39. Lots of 39s and 40s are almost always deep rusted iron. All of these let me know that the target is probably iron. Deeper clad and silver usually have more solid numbers between 24 and 36 and also have less distorted high tones.
Click to expand...

That is good info, thank you! When I push the horseshoe button, if I hear a small grunt at the end of the high tone, I am assuming this is an iron nail or undesirable target. How should I deal with hearing 4-5 high tones on each swing of the coil, the vast majority of which are false signals from iron in the ground?
 
Do the 4-5 high tones sound really good/repeatable or are they very short, not repeatable and more faint than a tone from a real high conductor? If they aren’t good, solid, two way repeatable tones, I just ignore them as ground noise/EMI especially if I am giving advice to a beginner/newbie that is using a 440 or 540 for the first time.
 
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