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-   Caches, Old Bottles, and other Treasures (https://metaldetectingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23)
-   -   Did the FBI steal the Gold? Anyone know these guys? (https://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=296218)

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL (Post 3386205)
....Only the dumb criminals get caught.
.....


So let me see if I understand you correctly : You agree that a poll of the population of a prison would indeed show very few "ex-govt. employees" . Right ? Which at first blush, would seem to show that govt. employees are NOT "more prone" to be criminals. Right ?

But nnneeeooohhh. That population statistic STILL doesn't show that govt. employees aren't more-prone to be criminals. Instead, it is simply because govt. employees are simply *more sneaky* criminals, who simply "don't get caught". Thus, they don't get into prisons, to be part of this poll. Eh ? :roll:

But rest assured, they are more evil, and thus steal treasures, all the time. Right ?

Man-in-wall, this is what is known as the logical fallacy of non-falsifiable . There is no statistic or data or proof that can be shown to you, to show you that they are just normal human beings. And it's also an argument from silence. For example, what proof do YOU have that they DO commit more crime, but presto, are simply not caught as often ? You would have to say that you don't have proof, because, gee ...... they hide that proof (as any good criminal does).

Don't you see the vicious circle ? I could use the same logic to deduce that you are a murderer. But simply a good murderer who has been able to hide the incriminating proofs. See ?

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3386256)
... then disappeared is the one who may have found the bulk of it.

Note the word "it". The "It" is a fabulous treasure. Eh ? Ok this just assumes there was an "it" (a fabulous treasure) in the first place. Ok, says who ?

I love this "out" for the reason they never find treasure. Notice it NEVER means there wasn't a fabulous treasure. It only means : "Someone already found it".

Why can't the answer be that there wasn't a fabulous treasure in the first place ? :?:

I can do the same logic train for the fabulous treasure in my backyard. It's most certainly there. But if you can't find it, it doesn't mean that there wasn't a past-tense treasure. It simply means someone already found it (or stole it) previously. Right ? And no one can ever disprove this .

Great, sign me up ! I'm gonna submit this to Readers Digest and bang on media doors :laughing:

HiDesertHunter 04-21-2022 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3386256)
I still look at it for 5 minutes but it is all the same.

LOL ! I catch myself doing the same but the needle on the interest 'meter' drops to zero pretty fast.

I am sure some of the stuff they are finding was probably dropped by whoever was 'materially' involved with whatever DID take place on the island but again, it's still just random stuff. Nothing specific to any treasure, historical artifacts etc.

I think I will always be intrigued by the legend of it but the show really took away the 'mystique' and 'wonder' of it.

Heck I am probably MORE interested in the "Lost Dutchman" mine story than Oak Island as it as well has been a topic of interest since I was a kid but in the last few years of reading and watching some good documentaries on it I have come to my own conclusion about it. Not that ALL questions are answered but as far as what the evidence shows up to the 'final chapter' with Jacob Waltz I have 'arrived' at my own ideas.

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiDesertHunter (Post 3386270)
... Nothing specific to any treasure, historical artifacts etc......

what do you mean: "Nothing specific to any treasure" ? :?: Haven't you been watching the show ? :?: EVERY ONE of those artifacts points to a fabulous treasure ! :roll:

HiDesertHunter 04-21-2022 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3386271)
EVERY ONE of those artifacts points to a fabulous treasure !

Oh yes, I am sure of this no doubt!

Which end of the lead cross is pointing to the treasure at ?!?!?!

Martin_V3i 04-21-2022 03:33 PM

Does gold leave a halo, and if so, couldn't an independent dig team re-dig the easy ground left by the FBI, and sample a halo from 7 tons that has been there this long?

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin_V3i (Post 3386275)
Does gold leave a halo, and if so, couldn't an independent dig team re-dig the easy ground left by the FBI, and sample a halo from 7 tons that has been there this long?

Dennis would merely claim that the sneaky FBI govt. dudes factored this in ahead of time. And thus : Dug out a foot of each side of the hole, in order to erase the halo. :roll:

Ya gotta hand it to those sneaky evil govt. FBI guys . For thinking ahead of time to erase all the proofs of their devious crime. Eh ?

So you see, the lack of a gold halo is ALL THE MORE PROOF of stolen treasure. Genius !

And so you know : It used to be "7 tons" (if you look at older links). Or "7 to 9". Now it's simply "9". Campfire story telephone game at its finest. :roll:

Martin_V3i 04-21-2022 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3386279)
Dennis would merely claim that the sneaky FBI govt. dudes factored this in ahead of time. And thus : Dug out a foot of each side of the hole, in order to erase the halo. :roll:

Ya gotta hand it to those sneaky evil govt. FBI guys . For thinking ahead of time to erase all the proofs of their devious crime. Eh ?

So you see, the lack of a gold halo is ALL THE MORE PROOF of stolen treasure. Genius !

And so you know : It used to be "7 tons" (if you look at older links). Or "7 to 9". Now it's simply "9". Campfire story telephone game at its finest. :roll:

I believe it is still worth a try to sample it. Forensics could still show residue. I did think about the dig around the edges but just how much time was the FBI there, and what digging gear did they have at hand. It seems hard to believe that it could all be done in days, without a lot of machinery causing visibility. Hey, maybe the govt had all the time in the world and I missed it.

Another question I maybe missed an answer to. Did the Finders Keepers do a deep seek and read a large metal signal, and if so, is that large signal non existent now. That makes a good question in itself.

HiDesertHunter 04-21-2022 04:22 PM

I took a few minutes today and skimmed a few articles about this whole fiasco and at least answered my previous question as to how the FBI got involved with it. Apparently the FBI got a copy of a Federal Warrant Parada applied for to seize the alleged gold without the state’s permission.

There are more twist and turns in this story than I originally would have guessed however I have a NEW question. One article I read describes how Parada first discovered the cave in 1974 and got permission from the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources to search it. According to the story, 'A colleague, who was allowed to do a small amount of drilling, said he briefly saw a flash of gold and what appeared to be gold dust on the drill bit'.

The article then 'fast forwards' to this part, On Jan. 31, 2018, the Paradas led the FBI to the cave, where agents performed tests that confirmed the Paradas’ finding

So what went on between 1974 and 2018? There is nothing in this particular article that accounts for this time frame and maybe I will read up a little more about this but it's becoming pretty 'Oak Islandish'.....

HiDesertHunter 04-21-2022 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin_V3i (Post 3386283)
but just how much time was the FBI there, and what digging gear did they have at hand. It seems hard to believe that it could all be done in days, without a lot of machinery causing visibility.

According to the article I read it said this about the actual digging operation:

That night, neighbors said they saw bright lights and heard backhoe and jackhammer noises, though the judge’s warrant had specified the FBI had to stop digging at 10 p.m. Witnesses also say they saw armored vehicles and a convoy of black SUVs. The next day, unaware of the neighbor’s reports, the Paradas and Getler were again confined to their cars. Then, FBI agents marched them to the excavation site and showed them an empty pit.


So of this is all true it seems like they were pretty well equipped.

Another part of the article stated this:

The FBI got the warrant, and the Paradas and Getler made an oral agreement with the bureau to observe the dig on March 13, 2018. Instead, they were confined to their cars far away from the dig site,

Again if this is true I wonder what caused the FBI to deny this agreement? My guess would be they probably got 'cocky' and 'combative' about it and the FBI said 'Eff this, you guys ain't going to watch'.

ManInTheWaLL 04-21-2022 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiDesertHunter (Post 3386295)
According to the article I read it said this about the actual digging operation:

That night, neighbors said they saw bright lights and heard backhoe and jackhammer noises, though the judge’s warrant had specified the FBI had to stop digging at 10 p.m. Witnesses also say they saw armored vehicles and a convoy of black SUVs. The next day, unaware of the neighbor’s reports, the Paradas and Getler were again confined to their cars. Then, FBI agents marched them to the excavation site and showed them an empty pit.


So of this is all true it seems like they were pretty well equipped.

Another part of the article stated this:

The FBI got the warrant, and the Paradas and Getler made an oral agreement with the bureau to observe the dig on March 13, 2018. Instead, they were confined to their cars far away from the dig site,

Again if this is true I wonder what caused the FBI to deny this agreement? My guess would be they probably got 'cocky' and 'combative' about it and the FBI said 'Eff this, you guys ain't going to watch'.

Newspapers are 100% accurate. LOL. Human perception isn’t even the great

swiftsword 04-21-2022 06:04 PM

The thing that always gets me about Oak Island, Cocos Island, etc. is that these folks think nothing of bringing in heavy equipment because that's the only way to reach the "treasure" when the people who buried said "treasure" had nothing but picks and shovels [emoji1]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiDesertHunter (Post 3386288)
.... but it's becoming pretty 'Oak Islandish'.....

You mean with this quote, right ? :

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiDesertHunter (Post 3386288)
....'A colleague, who was allowed to do a small amount of drilling, said he briefly saw a flash of gold and what appeared to be gold dust on the drill bit'......

Yup. Straight out of the O.I. playbook. :roll: And not just the "Oak Island" playbook, but scores of others of these camp-fire ghost-story legends. They are part & parcel to any good yarn. It is known as the "tip of the iceberg" .

Eg.: Someone finds a lone gold coin (or single silver bar, or flake of gold attached to a drill bit .... etc...). The tip of the iceberg for a fabulous treasure that is *just a bit deeper* or "somewhere close by", blah blah. Other essential components will be :

1) Insane depths

2) Cryptogram cipher clues

3)
Insane amounts (eg.: gold bars stacked to the ceiling of the cave, blah blah)

4) Booby traps

5) A skeleton or two

Etc... etc.... No good treasure yarn is complete with a variety of components like these ? :roll:

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiDesertHunter (Post 3386295)
According to the article I read it said this about the actual digging operation:....

Hi-desert-hunter : Stop and ask yourself who is saying all those quotes and assertions ? Drumroll : Dennis-&-gang.

I'm sorry, forgive me for my doubts, but given Dennis' track-record of "finding assassins under every rock", I do not trust the way he's recollecting and spinning this "he said she said" stuff. I am convinced that there is more plausible explanations for all those quotes, that do NOT point to a fabulous treasure.

This is the type logic where, if you try long enough and hard enough, you can find reasons why your neighbor is a triple axe murderer. Or a secret cabal is planning to take over the world, etc.....

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftsword (Post 3386319)
The thing that always gets me about Oak Island, Cocos Island, etc. is that these folks think nothing of bringing in heavy equipment because that's the only way to reach the "treasure" when the people who buried said "treasure" had nothing but picks and shovels [emoji1] ...

Oh trust me : The O.I. faithful have that angle covered as well. When you try to point out this line-of-reasoning that you cite, they will come up with elaborate pushback , of methods where it *could* conceivably have been done.

Like they'll point out that Cornish miners , in the middle-ages, dug elaborate tunnels into bedrock in European hard-rock mining, that did indeed have tunnels that reach this deep, blah blah blah.

Or they'll say something like : "Well gee, the pyramids of Egypt were built with manual labor, right ?" Hence if you get 100 men, for 100 yrs, then it can be done with pick & shovel. Eh ?

In other words, they think that if they can find ANY remote conceivable far-fetched way it *could* have been done, then presto: They think they've proven that there's a "fabulous treasure" there. :roll:

SmirkAtTheMerc 04-21-2022 08:27 PM

Lol its getting sweaty in here :laughing:

Coin-Saver 04-21-2022 09:14 PM

I don't remember anyone mentioning the Knights Templar. How can you have a good treasure story without those guys. I'm sure by now they have transformed into the Government.:laughing:

HiDesertHunter 04-21-2022 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3386362)
Hi-desert-hunter : Stop and ask yourself who is saying all those quotes and assertions ? Drumroll : Dennis-&-gang

I think you are getting the wrong 'impressions' from my posts about this.

From the articles I have read it is obvious there is a lot of 'conjecture' and unauthenticated information about this story.

It is however true the FBI did get involved and performed an excavation of the area which is 'telling' of an interest in 'something'. I even found a pic of it and the report of 'black' SUVs being reported is verified by there being one in the pic.

It is possible the FBI may have had 'ulterior motives' with this and based on some previous information that Parada had found CW artifacts in the area might have prompted their involvement.

While gold was most likely NOT found, it is possible they learned of something else of interest and carried out the 'dig' to see what else they might find, and may have discovered something entirely different and are keeping that a secret for whatever reason.

An example of my own is I once had a welding and metal fabrication biz and secured a contract (from the Forest Service) to build an iron enclosure and gate on a certain lava tube (cave) which are common in the area I live.

Well, this was initially touted as a way to keep the 'bat' population in the cave safe from human and animal intrusion for study I learned later from those 'in the loop' that ancient native American artifacts had been stumbled upon by 'spelunkers' in the cave and that prompted the decision to close it off.

My point is there could be 'other' possibilities we have no idea of with regard to this.

ManInTheWaLL 04-21-2022 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3385985)
Ok, and what's wrong with that ? Ie.: What's your point in that ? They darned well BETTER assume power & authority with that thankless job, or they'll never get their job done.

So too do self-employed business owners enjoy the freedom, power, authority, that it brings. I can come & go on md'ing treks, and merely put employees out on jobs. I can come and go as I please, with no one telling me when to punch a time-clock.

Thus : What is new about what you are saying ? Cops (and govt. workers) are NOT "automatically evil", simply because of their title or position. They are human just like anyone else. Prone to good or bad, just like anyone else.

In my area, many cops would quit jobs in the local factories, and becomes cops making 30% less. These are the same type of people whom will extort people, sexually harass women, lie, steal, etc. Not all cops are like this, but.. I would say the profession attracts a disproportionate amount of them, and the job also brings this characteristic out in people.

Do you really own a business? LOL The employees have a lot of power, they can make your life hell, they can sue you, they can complain to 101 government agencies, steal, etc. Come and go at will? Many of my friends , me included who have owned our own companies, become slaves to the work. Punch a time clock???? It's 24/7 if you want to run a successful company, there is never any true time off.

I don't believe in "Good or Evil". I do know about personality traits, and some professions tend to attract a certain type more than others. Many of these people have high testosterone levels, this even plays a factor in making them greater risk takers, and also more prone to break laws.

A lot of cops even dislike other cops.

Tom_in_CA 04-21-2022 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManInTheWaLL (Post 3386396)
.....
Do you really own a business? LOL The employees have a lot of power, they can make your life hell, they can sue you, they can complain to 101 government agencies, steal, etc. ......

Odd, but you start with the assertion that cops (and/or govt. workers) are disproportionately corrupt, thieves, etc....

But then you turn right around in the next breath, and confirm that ..... gee ... rank & file non-government workers can be corrupt, thieves, etc...

So which is it ? Let's just compromise and agree that cops and govt. workers are not more evil or corrupt than the general populace.


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