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-   -   Did the FBI steal the Gold? Anyone know these guys? (https://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=296218)

Pete e 08-09-2022 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3413195)
Pete, look closely at any claim that the

And you will notice that it's quotes from Dennis & gang. NOT quotes from the FBI themselves. It's Dennis & gang saying that the FBI said such & such. And heaven forbid that quotes can be taken out of context, embellished, etc.... eh ?

I have no doubt you are correct Tom about Dennis's contribution to all this.

However, what prompted the FBI to dig? Surely they must have seen a Report from the Survey Company that indicated "something" might be buried? Or did they dig solely on the basis of the fuss Dennis made?

Did the Survey Company mislead the FBI? What technology did they use? Ground Scanning Radar? Uncle Freds' Garrett? Dowsing Rods?

Remember earlier that the FBI were accused on not releasing all the documents in the case?

Maybe, just maybe, somebody at the FBI has been hood winked and/or acted incompetently in allowing the dig to proceed in the first place and spending a lot of public money on what was obviously a wild goose chase!

GoDeep 08-09-2022 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete e (Post 3413194)
I would still like clarification, preferably from the FBI, what the initial scan showed that prompted them to dig in the first place...Also, I have to wonder whether the original Survey company is legit? Or is is it run by Dennis's Brother-in-law or somebody similar?:roll:

The FBI contracted an independent company, Enviroscan to complete a gravimeter test of the site which measures changes in gravity. The gravimeter indicated two possible high density areas. But, the gravimeter can be affected by dome structures, compacted surfaces (you don't say, as the test was done on a ROAD BED), crystalline structures, water and other subsurface anomalies.

Like all instruments, it's only a speculative tool, one needs to dig to confirm.

SeabeeRon 08-09-2022 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDeep (Post 3413161)
A point i always thought wasn't given enough attention was trying to tie the KGC or the Civil War to the Dent's Run site.

It was always a story looking for some gold.

Fact is, they hadn't even dug up one single ounce of gold yet, so tying it to any group or historical event was grossly premature.

Even for the sake of argument, if gold did exist there, you'd have to FIRST dig it up and then have it forensically analyzed and dated. It could just as well be some gold from a mobster who buried it in the 1920's or it could have been some wealthy recluse who secreted away in the 1890's etc etc etc.

I've literally had posts over there deleted for stating this very obvious and unavoidable observation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3413168)
Oh, gosh, haven't you been paying attention ? OF COURSE they've dug up (past tense) tons of gold. The fact that no one's ever seen a red cent of any gold, does NOT mean "no gold". It merely means: Stolen + Conspiracy . Tsk tsk, get with the program :roll:



Yes, 'dissing this particular treasure legend is not allowed there. Not even logical scrutiny showing more-plausible explanations, flaws in the story, etc.... Only pro-dent's run posts are allowed. No skepticism allowed.

Also, be very careful not to 'diss magic wands there either.

While I am in agreement with much of what David and Tom state about Dent's Run, as a Moderator here I need to state that just as we would not want FMDF cast in a negative light on other detecting sites, we will not allow the talking down of the site you allude to here. Thanks guys!

KOB 08-09-2022 01:11 PM

I enjoy reading some of your guys theories on this stuff. Most all have some great assessments. But I have 1 huge question. Over just the last 2 years and particularly what happened yesterday , what sensible man could even remotely trust the FBI on anything ? Recent whistleblowers show they are dropping dimes on each other. Longtime employees show something major is wrong.

FreeBirdTim 08-09-2022 02:24 PM

Quote:

as a Moderator here I need to state that just as we would not want FMDF cast in a negative light on other detecting sites, we will not allow the talking down of the site you allude to here. Thanks guys!
They're being cast in a negative light because they censor any negative posts about this Dent's Run tall tale. That's a fact. They're big boys over there. They don't need you to censor our posts over here as well. This Dent's Run tale is baloney, period. When mods step in to protect a tall tale, that will always cast that site in a negative light.

Tom_in_CA 08-09-2022 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete e (Post 3413199)
.... However, what prompted the FBI to dig? ....

Easy : Dennis going around for years prior to that, banging on govt. and media doors, claiming there's a fabulous treasure buried on Govt. land. Eg.: permissions to dig, salvage split contracts, media news stories, etc.....

For example : I could singlehandedly get the "FBI" (or an LEO agency of some sort) to come out and dig in a spot I tell them. If I swear up and down long enough, that murder victims or a treasure is buried there, then sure, eventually if you pester media enough, they'll run a story. Then the govt. to come dig to shut the story up, blah blah blah.

Smoke does not mean fire in this case. It was smoke that is entirely of Dennis' own making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete e (Post 3413199)
.... Surely they must have seen a Report from the Survey Company that indicated "something" might be buried? Or did they dig solely on the basis of the fuss Dennis made?....

Any quote that you find about the "...something might be buried...", comes from Dennis & gang's lips. That are supposed quotes from survey people or G-men. They are not quotes from the G-men or survey people themselves. It's Dennis SAYING that they said such & such.

And BTW, I'm not saying that Dennis isn't 100% sincere. And thus "not lying". He's hearing and interpreting things through his lens. He can capture quotes and musings and announce : " AHA ! A Treasure !..."

If someone is hell-bent on a conspiracy, then EVERYTHING AROUND THEM that they selectively hear, is 100% proof of the conspiracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete e (Post 3413199)
.... Remember earlier that the FBI were accused on not releasing all the documents in the case? ...

I guarantee you, that if the FBI did give everything Dennis wants, and it showed no treasure, do you think that would put an end to this nonsense ?? OF COURSE NOT ! :roll: That would only be proof that the FBI white-washed & redacted the records :roll: And we'd be off to D.R. 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, etc...

Dude, try this : Go down to any govt. offices in your city (city, county, state, federal, or military) : Walk in and demand to see various papers. Demand access to personnel records of any LEO that drove past your house last night. What do you think they will tell you ?


This phenomenon of bureaucracy does NOT mean : Conspiracy. Welcome to the govt. and common sense they have to not be at the beck & call of anyone who waltzes in demanding that everyone drop what they're doing and give you cart-blanche to their file cabinets. Who in the h*ll gave Dennis that right to walk in with a list of demands like that ?

Since when is ANY govt. agency required to bow to that ? Try that at your local LEO or military base, and see what they tell you, for ANY inquiry you might have. There has ALWAYS been proper steps to go through. And for good reason. There's not a single govt. office, of any level, in the USA, (or business, or household, or charity, etc...) that's going to allow you to come waltzing in and demanding "proofs that you didn't commit a crime".

Tom_in_CA 08-09-2022 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoDeep (Post 3413205)
The FBI contracted an independent company, Enviroscan to complete a gravimeter test of the site which measures changes in gravity. The gravimeter indicated two possible high density areas. But, the gravimeter can be affected by dome structures, compacted surfaces (you don't say, as the test was done on a ROAD BED), crystalline structures, water and other subsurface anomalies.

Like all instruments, it's only a speculative tool, one needs to dig to confirm.

GoDeep, it is sometimes amazing how supposed experts can say the silliest things, eh ? Like an archie I'm thinking of, finds a few square nails in a pasture in northern CA, and announces that he's found evidence of a long-lost rumored ghost town. He is totally oblivious to the fact (that any long-time md'r knows), that : Random square nails are bound to be in ANY random field, that borders ANY old road. Yet this genius archie rattled enough news agency outlets, to get his "discovery" in newspapers, etc..... My buddy and I went to this field, and quickly realized, that it's just random nails that could be expected to be anywhere. Even the local museum in that city says this clown in an embarrassment to true-historical research in their area.

So the point being ^ ^ "experts" can say the durndest things. Especially when interpreted/quoted through the filter of a conspiracy theorist trying to translate single sentences in-favor of their own pre-drawn conclusions.

Tom_in_CA 08-09-2022 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3413235)
...., what sensible man could even remotely trust the FBI on anything ? ....

Kob, So since we can conclude that : "The FBI always lies", then .... go ahead, take a look at any news brief that has them saying anything (any quotes you can find), and .... you can likewise conclude: "This must not be true. Because, after all, what sensible man could even remotely trust the FBI on anything ?"

There is some logical fallacy going on here, in what you are saying. It's not proving or disproving anything. I think it's the "genetic fallacy" If Miss Smith is known to torture cats, and is of a certain occupational field that I think is mean, then if Miss Smith says 2+2 = 4, therefore I can conclude that 2 + 2 does NOT equal 4. Right ?

In other words, you debate the merits, on the basis of the merits themselves. Not on the genetic origin of the person speaking. And believe it or not, cops, LEO's, FBI, CIA, military, etc... are just normal dudes like you and me. Capable of corruption, or capable of an honest day's work.

You can not broad-brush an entire entity or people-group because of race, job title, sex, etc.... Instead, you look at the merits of the ideas and claims themselves.

GoDeep 08-09-2022 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3413235)
I enjoy reading some of your guys theories on this stuff. Most all have some great assessments. But I have 1 huge question. Over just the last 2 years and particularly what happened yesterday , what sensible man could even remotely trust the FBI on anything ? Recent whistleblowers show they are dropping dimes on each other. Longtime employees show something major is wrong.

True, the FBI does not have a stellar reputation, but consider this, it's a point i frequently make:

No matter how corrupt the FBI may be, it doesn't increase the odds that gold was buried there some 150+ years ago, before the FBI even existed.

Tom_in_CA 08-09-2022 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeabeeRon (Post 3413206)
.... we will not allow the talking down of the site you allude to here. ...

I can appreciate that. Which is why I did not [recently] mention the name of any said-site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim (Post 3413245)
.... This Dent's Run tale is baloney, period. ...

And the mere fact that common sense prevails here (and not censored), speaks loudly, all-by-itself. Without even having to mention the name of the "other" site, eh ?

Pete e 08-09-2022 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3413252)

Dude, try this : Go down to any govt. offices in your city (city, county, state, federal, or military) : Walk in and demand to see various papers. Demand access to personnel records of any LEO that drove past your house last night. What do you think they will tell you ?


This phenomenon of bureaucracy does NOT mean : Conspiracy. Welcome to the govt. and common sense they have to not be at the beck & call of anyone who waltzes in demanding that everyone drop what they're doing and give you cart-blanche to their file cabinets. Who in the h*ll gave Dennis that right to walk in with a list of demands like that ?

Since when is ANY govt. agency required to bow to that ? Try that at your local LEO or military base, and see what they tell you, for ANY inquiry you might have. There has ALWAYS been proper steps to go through. And for good reason. There's not a single govt. office, of any level, in the USA, (or business, or household, or charity, etc...) that's going to allow you to come waltzing in and demanding "proofs that you didn't commit a crime".

The Freedom of Information Act requires Government Agencies to be as transparent as possible, with certain limitations of course. Given a Judge ordered the FBI to release documents relating to the case in a timely manner, I don't think my perspective on this is too far off the mark. That said, I don't believe the FBI were involved in any major conspiracy, but may be trying to avoiding their own incompetence in this case.

Tom_in_CA 08-09-2022 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete e (Post 3413259)
The Freedom of Information Act requires Government Agencies to be as transparent as possible, with certain limitations of course. ...

A micro-scale example:

I run the paperwork/office division of a company, that my business partner and I own. And his wife can be a ... uh ... "pill". She comes down to my office demanding this and that and the other. To prove where expenses went . To make sure she's "getting her share", blah blah, and that no hanky panky cooking-of-books is occurring.

And yes, like your "freedom of information act" says : Yes, I have to give her what she wants. But boy oh boy, if she doesn't understand something, or doubts that a paperwork trail is accurate (someone maybe "doctored" it, or is doing cash-jobs on the side, blah blah), she can take ANY anomaly or delay, and PRESTO ! There is hell to pay, and it's certain proof of corruption, etc....

So a part of me feels bad for the govt. offices who are perpetually getting lawyers pounding at-their-door, at the behest of Dennis. Reminds me of what I'm going through here . UUUgghhhh.

GoDeep 08-09-2022 09:54 PM

One thing we know, it's a coverup! Oh, the irony of it all. They (the treasure hunters and their supporters/enablers/defenders) accuse the FBI of doing a coverup, only to run a coverup themselves when the facts don't go their way!

Tpmetal 08-10-2022 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3413254)

You can not broad-brush an entire entity or people-group because of race, job title, sex, etc.... Instead, you look at the merits of the ideas and claims themselves.

Wish more people in todays world would follow that line of thought

KOB 08-10-2022 09:34 AM

It is hard to NOT brush an entire entity anymore. And I never used to be like that. There are many good people in any occupation or in this case the FBI. But when you have the fish stink from the head down , it is all rotten. But if caught early enough , there is a chance to save the body....🙏🙏🙏

Tom_in_CA 08-10-2022 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3413375)
It is hard to NOT brush an entire entity anymore...

No, it's not hard at all. In fact, let's take it for a test drive. Let's say that there's a dude named "Joe" . He's from the "all rotten" FBI. Joe tells you that 2 + 2 = 4. Ok quick Kob : Can you trust the truthfulness of Joe's math assertion ?

In other words : Do you judge the merits of Joe's statement on the merits of the pro/con of math equation on its own ? Or do you judge the merits of the pro/con math equation on the occupation/people group that Joe is in ?

KOB 08-10-2022 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA (Post 3413382)
No, it's not hard at all. In fact, let's take it for a test drive. Let's say that there's a dude named "Joe" . He's from the "all rotten" FBI. Joe tells you that 2 + 2 = 4. Ok quick Kob : Can you trust the truthfulness of Joe's math assertion ?

In other words : Do you judge the merits of Joe's statement on the merits of the pro/con of math equation on its own ? Or do you judge the merits of the pro/con math equation on the occupation/people group that Joe is in ?

I am judging Joe from what he is being ordered to do. Not in his beliefs or morals. His leader is sour. And eventually 1 or 2 bad apples ruin the whole bushel. Too many Joes are bailing out of law enforcement because they do not have support. It's sad.

Please don't take tidbits or snippets of my quotes and twist them around to YOUR narrative. It gets real old Tom. If someone doesn't read MY entire statement, they might actually believe you.

Tom_in_CA 08-10-2022 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3413393)
... read MY entire statement, ....

I am reading, and have read, your "entire statements". Nothing is taken out of context in my test drive.

So since you clarified that "Joe" might ... yes... be honest, yet his upline "leader" *most certainly is* corrupt :

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOB (Post 3413393)
.... His leader is sour. ....

Ok, nothing out of context so far, right ? Ok then : If "his leader" tells you 2+2 = 4, then .... can that be trusted ?

And BTW : I'm not saying that stereotypes are not justified (Eg.: If you're in a supermax prison, yes, it's likely the con-men are telling you lies). But this still doesn't stop our obligation from examining the merits of each case. Ie.: the data itself, not solely on the person telling-you-the-data. Lest we be guilty of the genetic fallacy.

SeabeeRon 08-10-2022 11:01 AM

Moved Thread
 
Moving this thread to the Caches, Old Bottles, and other Treasures sub forum, seems to be a better place for it.

Please keep your comments "on topic" and do not drift into long winded "back and forth" debates, especially comments that are political in nature.

GoDeep 08-10-2022 12:26 PM

The FBI's honesty or dishonesty has nothing to do with whether gold was there or not. Of course, it could have something to do with whether they admit to if gold was there or not. They deny they did, and so far, the record supports this assertion.

Also, Petitioner (old habit that i'll continue with, Petitioner, as in the Petitioner in Finder Keeper LLC Vs Dept of Justice) always tried to make it like the field agents that did the dig were the ones sitting by an old file cabinet, sorting through his request for records.

He did this to paint a negative picture. In reality though, the record is digitized, and it's kept in an entirely different organization within the DOJ, whose primary task is to provide records: Department of Justice’s Office of Records Management

Edit: True, they are pathetically slow at producing records, but Petitioner made it like his request was being singled out(which of course, as Tom say's, is "proof" to him they are hiding something), when in fact, it isn't uncommon at all to wait 4+years after a records request to receive them.


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