When is it better to ask forgiveness instead of permission?

[hoser]

That is my understanding of the law as I have read it.

Mikey that may be the law but if you want to gain access to other good hunting prospects you always see if the owner wants what you find. Remember, it was there without anyone's knowledge. So if you find it on private property and you don't have prior permission then give it up IF they want it. You may not really like it, but it's the right thing to do. Sorry.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I don't know how the Courts would treat the "finder" (i.e. not sure he/she would be classified as a "thief), but generally speaking, lost items are supposed to be turned into the local law enforcement agency who has jurisdiction over the property where the item was found. As the finder, you can eventually have it "returned" to you if the owner doesn't show up (after a certain amount of time) to claim the item.

But it's certainly not a valid comparison. One behavior is illegal (trespassing and removing found items) while the other action is not illegal (detecting on public property where it's allowed). It's like you're comparing speeding on the highway with "speeding" on a racetrack.

F-O : Good answer. Thanx for taking a crack at it. And yes you're right : *Technically* all 50 states have lost & found laws (born out of wandering cattle laws of the 1800s) . That anytime you or I find an item of a given value-or-more (typically something like $50 or $100 or more) that : We are supposed to be turning the item in to the police. And assuming no one claims the item, we can go back to the police station in 30 days and get it . And there might be storage fees or handling costs we'd have to pay in some states.

But as you well know : NONE OF US ARE DOING THAT ! We are all lawless miscreants .

And the comparison is that what Willee was accentuating the how bad the crime is, when you start to add the added evil of : Finding something. And all I was doing was to say : That added component is ALREADY happening ANY time you detect (if the object is over the criteria value of your state's L&F law).

Yes, it is not a commentary on the issue of the OP's original scenario. It is only a commentary on the crime of "theft". And I'm pointing out that we are ALL thieves, if we want to get technical.

Sure, I guess you can say "worse " thief if found on private land w/o permission. Granted. But even that topic too has gone from stuff that most people would consider benign (middle of nowhere, no fences, blah blah), to out & out fence hopping into someone's yard. Technically, the "middle of nowhere" and "someone's front yard" are identical. Technically there's "no such thing as benign". That is why , when you encounter this short cut path, you should not take it

 

[Willee]

Willee, points duly noted. But let's just cut to the chase & know that no one should be going on to private land, in the first place. I think there's a mental connotation of "fence hopping" that has crept into this thread. But go back to the ORIGINAL post #1, by Smooth23, from October. Notice it's painting a much more benign picture. Not the picture you're painting in post #95.

But sure, let's just grant that nothing is benign anywhere. And you and I will never "step off the sidewalk". The world would be a better place if everyone was this strict. Granted. Ok ?

But I want to comment on the moral dilemma you've painted , about the family heirloom : Are you aware that the exact same "trot out the toddler" type -story can be painted for public land too ? Easy, here's how :

1) Your wife is at the park at 3pm with your young kid, pushing your child on the swing set.

2) She sees her wedding ring fly off, and land off-yonder in the sandy surface.

3) She rushes over, to try to find her ring. Only to discover that ...... no matter how much she sifts the sand with her fingers, it's obscured from view.

4) BUT NOT TO WORRY, because her husband (you) is a metal detector enthusiast. So she calls you to tell you that you're going to need to find her ring in the park.

5) You tell her : "As soon as I get off work at 5pm, I'll go there and find it.

6) At 5pm you & your wife arrive back at the park. You begin hunting the exact spot she's directed you to. But no matter how hard you try, you can NOT find her ring !

7) After 10 minutes of thoroughly scrubbing the little tight spot, an old man has been watching you from the park bench the entire time. He comes over and talks to you :

8) He says : "you know it's odd that you are spending all this time , stuck in this little isolated zone. Because just 30 minutes ago, some other guy with a detector was here. And when he got to this exact spot, all of the sudden he let out a shriek of joy. And I saw him intently studying an object in his hand. And then he left the park. And then only 15 minutes later, you showed up and walked to this exact spot"

9) You would immediately put 2+2 together, and realize that someone else found your wife's ring .

So let's pose your same great question to the above thought experiment : Regarding that other md'r: Is he a thief ?

No ... not on public property ... big difference.

 

[A good plumber]

Wow! I just read this entire thread again.. Now I need to go md’ing just to clear my thoughts.
Good discussion, good Arguments.

 

[A good plumber]

I promise to to be honest and fair and only lie to those I love. Just like Mr Murdaugh

 

[oldkoot]

Farm field who’s owner is nowhere to be found, presumed owned by a development company and leased usage to a farm. Crops are down. Just go until asked to leave? Avoid?

Look at it this way if you do not have permission then it is trespassing, and if it were you would you want someone tresspassing on your property, I know how I feel about things like what you are asking you just have to decide how you feel about someone trespassing, and trust me being shot at with rock salt hurts LOL, it feels like you were dropped into a hornets nest and burns like the dickens LOL

and if you have to ask you already pretty much know it is wrong in your own mind LOL

 

[sweetinsanity]

sooooo, everyone on here saying go for it as long as its not posted...... for one, you know its not yours, meaning its someone else's. so lets say you go for it. now you upset a land owner who's relatives own farms in the area or a property you already hunt. i'm pretty sure you can forget about detecting those. or lets say its your yard. your not home to ask permission..... guess i'll just dig away till i'm asked to leave?

 

[stetam]

No

 

[marcomo]

Rule #1: Don't trespass on private property. It's against the law.

Rule #2: If you break rule #1, don't flaunt it.

 

[Bioheat1969]

sooooo, everyone on here saying go for it as long as its not posted...... for one, you know its not yours, meaning its someone else's. so lets say you go for it. now you upset a land owner who's relatives own farms in the area or a property you already hunt. i'm pretty sure you can forget about detecting those. or lets say its your yard. your not home to ask permission..... guess i'll just dig away till i'm asked to leave?

It's one thing to hunt a field that's going to be plowed and planted, it's something else entirely to go into someone else's yard and dig in their lawn. The first the farmer most likely won't care, the second you need to prove to the owner that you will leave it as good as you found it.

 

[Bob38]

I find that if I don't have permish, I would be too paranoid to hunt there so I move on to the next. Some locations will take longer to gain access so I just give it time until I think it would be optimal to ask. I also find that most farmers or ranchers don't mind if and give you their blessing. However, if you don't ask, they can get pretty pissed. They are just protecting their assets weather it equipment, livestock, or crops. Also, remember these folks know a lot of people in the area and if you treat them with respect, it could lead to some easy wins. It's happened to me on two different occasions. When it comes to LLC operations, I just scratch that one off the list and move on to the next one on the list. Time is better spent trying to get the OK from one person.

If you know who owns the property and they have a facebook page look at their friends list. you never know if you have some of the same friends or same interest. Also, don't wear anything political. Keep it neutral. I have also used Facebook messenger and received several permissions. let them know who you are where you went to school, or work. Give them a way out by saying "if you do not wish to let me metal detect on your property and if so, I completely understand." By giving them a way out, you invite trust. I have a pre-typed permission request I use for emails and Facebook messenger. Give it a lot of thought and type one up. let someone proof-read it. Not just for grammatical issues but content. It's important for the proofreader to be critical.

Anyway, just a few pointers that have worked really well for me. And yes, you will still get the Big No. But the yeses will come easier.

 

[TheFrood]

Isn't the the decision to ask forgiveness or permission tied directly to the likelihood of spending time in prison or simply being asked to leave? IE as the likelihood of jail time increases the importance of getting permission likewise increases?

 

[RMEAV8R]

These days it's pretty easy to find out who owns the property. I'm only talking about private property. If you can't ask in person or if you don't like to knock on doors just sent them a polite, short and to the point letter. I just sent out two more permission request a few days ago. So far I'm 2 for 2 on previous request. For me it's much more enjoyable when you do it right.

 

[maxxkatt]

As for me, I would never metal detect farmland with out permission. Regardless if it is corporate or private owned. If permission was too difficult for me to find then I move on to other hunt sites. That being said, an empty lot in North Atlanta, that has 4-5 big old oak trees (almost a sure sign of an old home sites, especially if there are daffodils present and has a for sale sign by a commercial realtor. I have been known to call them for permission and most times I get a permission. Especially if it is a guy realtor who answers the phone. He is usually shows an interest with questions about the hobby, like what is the best thing that I have ever found. And usually says, sure go ahead. He is really not interested in the property like an owner would be, but rather interested in selling the property. Plus salesmen are pretty agreeable guys and don't make a living being negative to people. That is just my experience in North Atlanta.