Vortex 2.07 coming soon

[Diga]

So far, in my opinion, the XP Deus is king in the tot lot. Being so light and frequencies up to 80 kHz with the 9x5 HF coil really help. At 80 kHz EMI is pretty much gone. The ket to hitting a small gold chain at 6" is stability. Be it silent or a slight threshold. You've got to be able to hear those little cracks & pops. If you try one of the new snap-crackle-pop detectors in a tot lot, good luck with telling EMI noise from a deep gold chain. I do like that the Vortex seems to handle EMI well.

Hi CP.

Ya, for those purposes a small coil and a high SF would be ideal. The Legend and Nox line have smaller elliptical coils, a 6" round coil, and single frequencies going up to 40 KHz. Even in high EMI, 20 KHz is almost silent, and 40 KHz is completely silent. As such and given your criteria, the Legend, Nox, and Deus 1 should be equally quiet and hit small gold equally well.

Regarding the Vortex's EMI mitigation:

For a proper EMI test of the Vortex, we would have to see a comparison video with the Vortex and other SMF detectors at the same time and using similar settings. Have you seen anything like that?

 

[Cherry Picker]

Hi CP.

Ya, for those purposes a small coil and a high SF would be ideal. The Legend and Nox line have smaller elliptical coils, a 6" round coil, and single frequencies going up to 40 KHz. Even in high EMI, 20 KHz is almost silent, and 40 KHz is completely silent. As such and given your criteria, the Legend, Nox, and Deus 1 should be equally quiet and hit small gold equally well.

Regarding the Vortex's EMI mitigation:

For a proper EMI test of the Vortex, we would have to see a comparison video with the Vortex and other SMF detectors at the same time and using similar settings. Have you seen anything like that?

The only comparison I have been able to make on the EMI is watching videos when they first turn them on. I would like to see someone do an EMI comparison so I know what I'm seeing is normal and not just chance.

 

[NorthwestrnWIMD]

The only comparison I have been able to make on the EMI is watching videos when they first turn them on. I would like to see someone do an EMI comparison so I know what I'm seeing is normal and not just chance.

Well i can turn mine on in my hotel room and no chatter whatsoever. I'm in a out of town trip for the kids basketball. Being the update came out i had to bring it with me. So many improvements so far!

 

[Diga]

With Garrett favoring the U.K. testers, I'm surprised there is no U.K. videos on the new update. So far, the only test of the new update is from the American "Southern Relic Adventures". Nothing from the Garrett salespeople "testers" like Digger Dawn (U.K.) and Brandon from Southern Relic Adventures. Although it might be because Dawn and Brandon received intense and justifiable flak for promoting a detector with serious flaws. Although they may not know what a good detector is...or they're Garrett shills.

 

[Diga]

CP,

As we've noted, a high frequency such as the typical 40 KHz is a requirement to hit small targets like the small gold in your tot lots. Yet, the Vortex's SF only goes up to 25 KHz, so???

Albeit I believe 40 KHz is yet another thing Garrett deliberately left out, which can be added to the list of upgrades that will come at a cost.

 

[Cherry Picker]

CP,

As we've noted, a high frequency such as the typical 40 KHz is a requirement to hit small targets like the small gold in your tot lots. Yet, the Vortex's SF only goes up to 25 KHz, so???

Albeit I believe 40 KHz is yet another thing Garrett deliberately left out, which can be added to the list of upgrades that will come at a cost.

Agreed, but! A hunting buddy of mine uses only his Whites DFX and can hit every piece of small gold I have. In fact, his DFX can hit all those little chains as well. They come in as iron. but in a tot lot we recover it all. It does make me wonder about the 25 kHz on the Vortex. That is one of the reasons I wanted to get my hands on one.

I have seen and read several reviews all saying the Vortex handled EMI exceptionally well. Another one of the reasons I want to get my hands on one. Some of these reports make not make a difference to others, but to me they are of great interest.

We all have our needs & wants when it comes to the features and performance of a detector. If we didn't, we'd all be using the same detector. Like me in tot lots. Depth isn't that big of a thing. I want a reliable VDI because I also do a lot of clad hunting.

 

[Diga]

Agreed, but! A hunting buddy of mine uses only his Whites DFX and can hit every piece of small gold I have. In fact, his DFX can hit all those little chains as well. They come in as iron. but in a tot lot we recover it all. It does make me wonder about the 25 kHz on the Vortex. That is one of the reasons I wanted to get my hands on one.

Is the DFX's maximum frequency right around 23 KHz? If so, it seems like that is high enough to hit the small gold...with a smaller coil I presume?

Good point about the small gold being detected as iron. Are you suggesting that a higher frequency would detect the same gold as nonferrous? I would think so.

I have seen and read several reviews all saying the Vortex handled EMI exceptionally well.

I've learned not to trust those unless it was an equal comparison with equal parameters as we previously talked about. EMI changes significantly from day to day and even minute by minute due to several factors. That's why its meaningless when someone says, "This detector is better in EMI on this site, compared to my other detector when I was here yesterday, last week, etc". It's not just meaningless due to the variability of EMI at a particular site, but there are also numerous other factors that can explain why one detector can seem to be better at mitigating EMI, even though it actually isn't.

All of these modern SMF detectors are receiving the same amount of EMI provided that the same coil size and type is used...and you know that

 

[Cherry Picker]

Is the DFX's maximum frequency right around 23 KHz? If so, it seems like that is high enough to hit the small gold...with a smaller coil I presume?

Good point about the small gold being detected as iron. Are you suggesting that a higher frequency would detect the same gold as nonferrous? I would think so.


I've learned not to trust those unless it was an equal comparison with equal parameters as we previously talked about. EMI changes significantly from day to day and even minute by minute due to several factors. That's why its meaningless when someone says, "This detector is better in EMI on this site, compared to my other detector when I was here yesterday, last week, etc". It's not just meaningless due to the variability of EMI at a particular site, but there are also numerous other factors that can explain why one detector can seem to be better at mitigating EMI, even though it actually isn't.

All of these modern SMF detectors are receiving the same amount of EMI provided that the same coil size and type is used...and you know that

The DFX uses both 3 kHz and 15 kHz in Best Data mode, but it does best on gold in single mode 15 kHz. I have a video on YT showing how different single frequency & multiple frequencies do on gold. The DFX will hit the gold chain in single 15 kHz, but nothing in Best Data which is both. It was the same on my NOX 800. Why the DFX at 15 kHz can hit those tiny gold pieces when the newer detectors won't I just don't get.

Yes, Higher frequencies do see most of the small gold chains as iron. As does the DFX, but the DFX seems to sound off on even the smallest piece of gold I have tested.

 

[Diga]

The DFX uses both 3 kHz and 15 kHz in Best Data mode, but it does best on gold in single mode 15 kHz. I have a video on YT showing how different single frequency & multiple frequencies do on gold. The DFX will hit the gold chain in single 15 kHz, but nothing in Best Data which is both.

Since SMF uses a primary frequency, my guess as to why BD mode won't hit the small chain, is because BD mode is using that 3 kHz instead of that 15kHz as the primary frequency.

Why the DFX at 15 kHz can hit those tiny gold pieces when the newer detectors won't I just don't get.

Except, modern SMF detectors do hit very tiny gold. Of course it depends on the frequency selected and the coil size. Plus, some chains may very well ID as iron. As such, All Metal may have to be used, and the first tone break set appropriately. For example, there was a particular You Tuber who was claiming one of the modern SMF detectors he just acquired, couldn't hit a small gold chain. It turned out he wasn't familiar with the proper use of the detector. As such, he had the first tone break set too high, and that's why he couldn't hear the chain.

 

[Cherry Picker]

Since SMF uses a primary frequency, my guess as to why BD mode won't hit the small chain, is because BD mode is using that 3 kHz instead of that 15kHz as the primary frequency.


Except, modern SMF detectors do hit very tiny gold. Of course it depends on the frequency selected and the coil size. Plus, some chains may very well ID as iron. As such, All Metal may have to be used, and the first tone break set appropriately. For example, there was a particular You Tuber who was claiming one of the modern SMF detectors he just acquired, couldn't hit a small gold chain. It turned out he wasn't familiar with the proper use of the detector. As such, he had the first tone break set too high, and that's why he couldn't hear the chain.

BD mode is supposed to be transmitting and receiving both 3 kHz and 15 kHz simultaneously. The DFX determines which frequency is returning the best signal and processes that frequency. That is my understanding anyway.

 

[Diga]

BD mode is supposed to be transmitting and receiving both 3 kHz and 15 kHz simultaneously. The DFX determines which frequency is returning the best signal and processes that frequency. That is my understanding anyway.

An SMF detector doesn't know what's the "best" signal, because it doesn't know what's being hunted for. 3kHz is great for high conductors, but not so great on those chains compared to 15kHz. I think that explains why BD (using 3kHz and 15kHz transmitted, and 3kHz as the primary frequency processed) doesn't hit the small chains, and why 15 kHz does hit the chains.

Since most hunters are likely hunting for coin sized targets, White's chose 3kHz as the primary received BD frequency. If Whites had added an additional SMF mode in which the primary processed frequency was 15kHz, I'd bet that BD mode would hit the chains in the same way as the SF of 15kHz does.

 

[Cherry Picker]

An SMF detector doesn't know what's the "best" signal, because it doesn't know what's being hunted for. 3kHz is great for high conductors, but not so great on those chains compared to 15kHz. I think that explains why BD (using 3kHz and 15kHz transmitted, and 3kHz as the primary frequency processed) doesn't hit the small chains, and why 15 kHz does hit the chains.

Since most hunters are likely hunting for coin sized targets, White's chose 3kHz as the primary received BD frequency. If Whites had added an additional SMF mode in which the primary processed frequency was 15kHz, I'd bet that BD mode would hit the chains in the same way as the SF of 15kHz does.

It is my understanding that the DFX, did transmit both signals simultaneously, then chose which frequency to process by which frequency returned the best data. Hence Best Data. So the primary signals were both the 3 kHz and 15 kHz, like today's 2 frequency detectors (SMF), but only processed which primary signal returned the best signal.

 

[Diga]

It is my understanding that the DFX, did transmit both signals simultaneously, then chose which frequency to process by which frequency returned the best data. Hence Best Data. So the primary signals were both the 3 kHz and 15 kHz, like today's 2 frequency detectors (SMF), but only processed which primary signal returned the best signal.

We've really gone off topic, but just one more thing:

If BD chooses the best amplitude and phase to use from 3kHz and 15 kHz, then do you know why BD can't hit the chains like the SF of 15kHz does?

 

[Cherry Picker]

We've really gone off topic, but just one more thing:

If BD chooses the best amplitude and phase to use from 3kHz and 15 kHz, then do you know why BD can't hit the chains like the SF of 15kHz does?

No I can't. All I can figure is a VDI cutoff point is used to determin which signal processing it sends to the user, and it is seeing the chains as a low VDI, so it is choosing the 3 kHz. Here is a part from the DFX manual about Best Data and processing.

30. 2 Frequency (Best Data)

Transmits and processes data continuously at both
3 kHz and 15 kHz frequencies (salt eliminated).
Automatically chooses to use only the data from the
most reliable frequency (based on both magnitude
and phase) for each specific target.
Gold, nickel, and other lower conductive metals re-
spond more reliably at higher frequencies. Copper,
silver, and other higher conducting alloys respond
more reliably at lower frequencies. 2 Frequency
(Best Data) uses the multi frequency mode to cancel
ground and salt and then selects the most ideal fre-
quency for that particular target alloy on a target by
target basis.

 

[Cherry Picker]

Here is the video I did many years ago comparing SMF and SF on the DFX.

 

[Diga]

Well CP, in my previous post I said, "one last thing", but since your last post, I do have another "one last thing", and I mean it this time! Maybe lol.

If the DFX can choose the best response from multiple frequencies, then why in the heck do modern SMF detectors have different weighted SMF modes based on the type of targets that one wants to find? If a detector could properly choose, it would only need one SMF mode.

Maybe it's because what the electronics conclude as best, is not what the hunter concludes as best.

 

[Diga]

Regarding your video CP:

I'm not familiar with the DFX, but at the SF of 15, that's a ferrous tone, correct? If so, is it possible that BD mode is discriminating out the ferrous signal due to some setting in BD mode?

 

[SS_Wonder]

Back to the vortex, it’s still illogical to me that folks promote a detector that failed miserably out of the gate and even after updates still does not deliver performance comparatible to lower cost units.

Are folks hoping there will be an evolutionary update that will make the vortex the king of SMF units?

 

[Cherry Picker]

Back to the vortex, it’s still illogical to me that folks promote a detector that failed miserably out of the gate and even after updates still does not deliver performance comparatible to lower cost units.

Are folks hoping there will be an evolutionary update that will make the vortex the king of SMF units?

If I remember right, the Legend, among others, had a bit of a poor out of the gate start.

At least for me, the Vortex seems to be on par. If it can do small gold and work well around metal poles, and a good reliable VDI I'm good with it.

 

[Diga]

Iffy Signals just posted his v2.07 video.

The Vortex is now matching the iron unmasking abilities of the other SMF detectors. He still has to check for falsing in his relics sites.