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  #1  
Old 06-27-2011, 06:12 PM
CoinCollector CoinCollector is offline
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Default Fairfax county parks illegal... or are they?

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/a...206RMD-pkg.pdf

I'm brand new to the forum, but I've come here for answers in the past mooching off info I found in other threads. Anyways, I found a document on the fairfax county page and I found this line on page 58:

" Fairfax County parkland is particularly threatened by relic hunting. Without anti-relic hunting signage posted, Fairfax County police will not assist. There is no Park Police force to supplement their efforts."

In other words, yeah it's "illegal" in the sense that the parks have rules. THe only problem is, if the signs aren't posted, then they can't legally enforce the rules. Take a look at the rules posted at park sites and use your own judgement. Frankly, I'd take the risk. The wording in these documents is BS when they try to explain why relic hunting is bad. They say it takes these artifacts "out of context" and "eliminates a non-renewable resource." That's !!!!, what the hell kind of good are the artifacts gunna do underground where NOONE can see them and NOONE can enjoy them?
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:26 AM
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wildman4910 wildman4910 is offline
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I read a bunch of that and all of it is bunk, it's the it's all mine you can't come play, no you can't see what your tax dollars paid for.

Looks like if they had their way nobody but the egg heads would be allowed to set foot in the park for fear you disturb a dirt clod & they never be able to put together the last bit of the puzzle.

Just remember your clad coin shooting not relic hunting and as stated in that absurd document the cops will not do squat if it is not posted on the sign.

The egg heads will never see 1% of whats there before it rots to nothing.

Got a good snort out of the "Friends of the parks" snitch group they want to start(hope they have fun with the gang bangers).

This is what happens when up to no good yuppies get a hold of your tax dollars.

The worst bit is they even admit they will never have the manpower/& or money to do 1% of what they want to.

We have large tracs of woodland here with big signs that say "Public Land, Preserving For Your Future" "Area Closed No Trespassing"

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  #3  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:30 AM
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motor20 motor20 is offline
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Question So why would you build a park on top of a HISTORIC site? I got this answer...

this is what I got from FFX co. when I asked to hunt on Tot lots and play grounds....



We require permits to conduct metal detect surveys on parkland in order to protect archaeological resources. Generally, permits are issued for use of metal detectors when contractors are looking for underground pipes or if archaeology is being conducted and use of a metal detector is required as part of the scope of work. In these cases, the permit is given for a specific activity being conducted in a finite period of time and the work is done under the supervision of a professional archaeologist.

Policy 203 of the Park Authority Policies, Section C states: "The taking of historic or prehistoric artifacts from beneath or above the ground or disturbing the ground for the purpose of locating artifacts or using or possessing a metal or mineral detector on park property is illegal.
(Section 15.1-1232 (q) Code of Virginia)."

The use of a metal detector on parkland is against state law. Although you are not proposing to conduct metal detecting with the intent of removing archaeological materials, the removal of objects could result in disturbance to intact archaeological resources.

It is acceptable to use a metal detector on privately held land with the permission of the owner.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Crowell
Cultural Resource Management and Protection Section Manager
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  #4  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:45 AM
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motor20 motor20 is offline
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Default digging into the fine print...

Ed Wentzel actually sticks up for and values the relic hunter...

too bad his comments are not appreciated by the local politicians...




Paragraph 5. “I disagree with the second sentence. First, it’s
unenforceable. Secondly, it doesn’t make sense. If the county
could somehow keep relic hunters off of private property then
thousands of artifacts would never be found. They would be
bulldozed, lost and destroyed in the inevitable development and
redevelopment that will continuously occur.
For example, the Centennial Gateway LP paid for an archeological
survey on the Ox Hill battlefield before the Fairfax Towne Center
was constructed. The survey found absolutely nothing from the
Civil War battle. Yet, in December 1993, relic hunters came on
Addressed
Yes,
No Change
No Change
Added text
Attachment 1
29
19
cont.
Ed Wenzel
Chantilly Battlefield
Association
(continued)
Civil War Sites
(continued)
Issue 7
(continued)
p. 25
p. 25
site and found hundreds of artifacts. Two relic hunters that I
engaged for the Chantilly Battlefield Association found 13 fired
minieballs and a brass button from a Union officer’s coat which I
am holding for the county. There were dozens of relic hunters on
the site over a two-week period and they all found artifacts as
reported to me by the gentleman I engaged. To promote a no relic
hunting policy on a countywide basis (it would not be adhered to)
would ensure that nothing is ever recovered anywhere and no one
would learn anything.
I would recommend that the Park Authority reach out to relic
hunters, recognize that they have great value in uncovering
artifacts that would never be found otherwise. I would provide
them with archaeological guidelines, data grids, ID forms,
information on how to benefit future generations. These guys are
not all bad. They’re not all grave robbers. They shouldn’t be
treated that way. I would go to their meetings and make peace,
not war. Their interest in relic hunting is an asset for the county on
countless construction sites and properties where, but for them,
these relics would be lost forever. What many of them practice is
commonly referred to as ‘salvage archeology’”.
Paragraph 6: “Item 7.1 The ‘Don’t Pocket the Past’ campaign of
years ago alienated relic hunters and made them hostile to
archeologists and the Park Authority. I wouldn’t go down that
road again. Post the signs on parkland and reference them to
parkland, but don’t imply that the FCPA thinks relic hunting on
private land or construction sites countywide is something that it
wants to stop. This will backfire. If artifacts are not searched for,
or not found, and are left ‘in situ’ for the future, then they will
likely never be found and will be lost in future waves of
development and redevelopment. Examples: The wholesale
destruction by developers of Civil War artifacts and the remains of
Civil War winter quarters throughout the Centreville area; and the
development of Ox Hill battlefield. It was relic hunters, not
archeologist, who salvaged what they could, photographed what
they could and even found the graves of soldiers. These people
Addressed
Strategy 7.4
Added text
Attachment 1
30
19
cont.
Ed Wenzel
Chantilly Battlefield
Association
(continued)
Civil War Sites
(continued)
Overall
Issue 7
(continued)
p. 25
p. 25
are not the enemy. The enemy is the perpetual onslaught of
developers and development and the inability of the county
planners to plan for and save anything except for more
development.”
.
“Add Item 7.3 ‘Work with developers and county planners to
cluster or relocate development to less sensitive areas in order to
protect Civil War sites. The transfer of development rights to
other parcels, an increase in density at other locations, or outright
acquisition by the county of significant land should be among the
tools that the county could use to protect its history and heritage.’
Private destruction, by commercial developers, of the county’s
Civil War heritage sites should not be permitted. Removal of
significant artifacts from the ground, even during archaeological
surveys, results in the destruction of the actual site. Piling up
bricks and artifacts on a shelf at a county storage facility so that
the developer an build on an historic site is no longer acceptable.
The County and its leaders must devise ways to thwart the loss of
important historic resources. Developers and speculators, clinging
to their ‘private property rights’ have destroyed far too much of
the county’s heritage already.
Liz, this is an excellent section on Civil War sites. What I
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:56 AM
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motor20 motor20 is offline
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Angry my last word on this issue

here is the law....

C. The taking of historic or prehistoric artifacts from beneath or above the ground or
disturbing the ground for the purpose of locating artifacts or using or possessing a metal
or mineral detector on park property is illegal. (Section 15.1-1232 (q) Code of Virginia).*
Fairfax County Park Authority 2006-2010 Cultural Resource Management Plan – April 26, 2006 74
* Title 15.1 of the Code of Virginia was recodified and renumbered effective December
1, 1997.
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  #6  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:35 PM
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Midasmulligan Midasmulligan is offline
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"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."
— Ayn Rand

I believe we have arrived.

My buddy was scouting a State Park with his Bay Retriever. They stopped on a bank of the river and he started throwing a stick into the water and letting the dog play a little fetch. The Park Police let him off easy with a warning and $85 in fines.

My family and I were hanging out at a local park enjoying a cook-out when it began to rain. We picked up our stuff and ran under a nearby pavilion that was unoccupied. Moments later (after he'd sat in the parking lot and waited until we had gathered everything up and brought it in out of the rain) the park ranger drove up and cracked his window to tell us that we had to vacate the facility immediately because we did not have a permit to use the empty pavilion. The conversation that ensued isn't worth repeating but I was threatened with a citation and possible arrest for dis-orderly conduct if I didn't "just shut up and do as I'm told". I was 50 years old at the time and enjoying a rare day off with my wife and our two youngest kids. The "authority" was maybe in his late 20's, about the age of my oldest daughter, but he did after all have a badge and a gun. He had the power and by god he was gonna use it.

I was standing in three feet of water maybe ten feet from shore teaching my friend how to handle a kayak. He had a life vest on and I had none. At one point he did a wet exit and I laid across the aft end of the boat to show him how to initiate a re-entry. The Park Marine Police (State again) had been drifting out in the channel taking a break from their usual pursuit of international terror threats and immediately noted the lawlessness of my act. $55 and a stern talking to, after they told me to board my craft and paddle out to them, which I dutifully did with a PFD. No matter, the citation was to stand 'cuz their boss had warned them not to let any of us have any slack.

Just consider for a moment the mindset that this thinking illustrates. If it doesn't anger and disturb you than you're probably better off leaving your head in the sand, or where ever you have it buried.

My general feeling is that it's now better to just go ahead and do whatever you like. If caught just apologize and move on, (works for our politicians). I am thoroughly fed up with having to ask permission to breath.
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:15 AM
Ace_Digger Ace_Digger is offline
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I live in Loudoun Co, which is next door and with the exception that I must travel there for my job, I stay away from Fairfax County for all other purposes, I will not even stop to buy gas in that county. The laws and regulations that are in effect in that county are bordering on authoritarian and absolute control. People can't walk the sidewalks or breathe the air without breaking some sort of restriction or regulation. It is no surprise that the detecting laws are so strict over there.

Prince William and Stafford are just as strict on detecting, but do recognize a persons rights and privileges.
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  #8  
Old 07-10-2011, 11:53 AM
Westernlegend1 Westernlegend1 is offline
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Maybe you could find other places to metal detect in the area. Or something similar that will give a good image to the hobby. Use of words such as bunk and BS when dealing with those folks will do more harm than good for the hobby. Maybe other members of the forum also feel this way but just haven't stated it in the past.
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  #9  
Old 07-10-2011, 03:21 PM
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motor20 motor20 is offline
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Default Hey Mulligan..

you live in Maryland dont you???

Maryland and Northern Virginia are probably the most liberal places this side of France. or at least San Francisco...

The so called Rules are out of control, I could go on about the lack of common sense of our elected officials, but I wont,,,its really the sheeple who voted them in, please make laws for me cause I cant think for myself......
and dont get me started on Fairfax County, I too drive through it every day and refuse to spend a dime there...

BTW I still hit the school lots in FFX and PW and have been lucky so far.........
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2011, 10:04 AM
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Midasmulligan Midasmulligan is offline
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My sentiments exactly. Treat me wrong and I vote with my wallet. That is to say; if I don't like what you're doing or how you run things I do whatever I can to see to it that not one cent of my money gets near your grimy fingers. Not one red cent will I spend in the abyss called Baltimore City. Not a parking meter dime nor a business that is based there...and I make sure that I tell them exactly that. Maybe when the producers learn to become more effective in withholding the resources that they provide the errant rulers will wise up? I seriously doubt it and expect that nothing will change until we have rioting in the streets (ala Greece and the U.K.) Aside from that, they'll probably just find a new way to steal from us to continue financing their war on our freedoms (ever read about some of Bama's emergency funding resolutions like Federalizing our 401K's?...there's no end to what the rulers can do when they're the ones making and changing the rules unchallenged).

I fill my holes, leave all as I found it, and never venture onto private property unless I have written permission (only used it once so far), but I will not appeal to any gov't nitwit for permission to do anything more than I am already forced to do. General civil disobedience can readily overwhelm the available resources of the oppressors. Just look at their enforcement of the new "No Cell Phone Use While Driving" laws. It's an absolute joke. You can sit at any intersection in Maryland and watch at least every other car's driver blithely jabbering away as they careen down the road half attentive and acting as if the law applies to everyone but them. What are the police going to do? Start shooting people to make an example of them?

On any given shift our part of Baltimore County only has 7 or 8 police on patrol. They spend an average of 15% of their day shift playing overpaid, well armed school crossing guards and the bulk of their remaining day fulfilling their primary mission of generating "revenue". They've no real interest in much else (other than driving real fast 'cuz they can), especially the younger ones that seem glued to their air conditioned car seats. When we get robbed it's been years since they would even bother to send a car by, and the NCIC jazz that you see on T.V. is just that...made for T.V. Our crime lab is under strict orders that they don't leave the office unless it's a violent crime. So much for "protect and serve".

It's all getting to be one big sick joke. Just do what ya want and if ya get pulled up just act stupid and apologize. Supposedly, and at least some of the older cops still understand this, there has to be intent for a crime to have been committed, so if you say ya didn't know (while it's still technically no excuse) at least you have a defensible response. That's more than most people offer (the apology part at least...stupid we have plenty of with no acting required). As for the image of the hobby, most folks look at it as some kind of geeky past time anyway. I still try to act as an ambassador of good will and intentions, but I doubt anybody that witnesses it really cares.
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  #11  
Old 10-11-2013, 12:00 AM
dcast703 dcast703 is offline
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Default FFX County

I have metal detected several times in FFX county. I have only been told to leave once, at burke lake park, because I was "removing resources that belonged to the park"... a whopping 4 cents.

Another time I was in a neighborhood near downtown FFX, it was public property, a small little field and play ground. I had some old guy pull up in his PT cruiser and stare at me for about 45 minutes. He was on the phone the whole time, talked to a homeowner across the street, read the rules on the sign, followed me around, then left...

I have emailed Fairfax and here is their response:

"The first and most obvious route would be to look for signage. Our property is generally marked.

The second would be to use the Tax Administration website to determine property ownership. Once you determined who owns that land it would be your responsibility get permission from the property owner to ascertain what you can and can't do on that property. Here is the appropriate website: : http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/searc...x?mode=address

You can also contact the Park Authority at 703-324-8700 and ask for assistance. Our regulations are in place to protect our natural and cultural resources and therefore restrict the use or possession of tools which could be used to damage those resources.

In addition, the regulations were jointly adopted by the Fairfax County Park Authority and the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority. So the restrictions under the regulations apply on all parkland owned by the two agencies.

If you need to contact the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority you can do so at 703-352-5900.

Take care"

SO my take is... if it is a regulated PARK.. like Burke Lake (they charge money to non-ffx residents, and have a shop and putt putt etc etc..) then you should not metal detect. Any kind of regulated/maintained park, with the brown signs, you should be careful and probably avoid. If you go, READ THE SIGNS READ THE SIGNS READ THE SIGNS... that way you can say you had no way of knowing without going out of your way to find out. (which frankly, we are expected to do anyways..) If anyone asks you to leave; park ranger, police officer, citizen, it's usually a good idea to just go.

Now according to their responses, it his difficult to know for sure what kind of land will be park regulated, or to what degree. They make it sound like any land in FFX county is illegal to metal detect on... but then they put emphasis on PARKS... I asked how to tell if its a park of which the rules would apply to, and they said to look for signs.

I originally looked at the PDF on this page: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/rules/

The section about metal detecting again, refers to parks... I also saw somewhere that having ANY tool is not allowed, including shovels.

I hope that helps.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2013, 12:07 AM
dcast703 dcast703 is offline
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Default woops

I am new here and I replied to this thread but I cannot find my reply, did it get posted?

Edit** I guess not.. I typed a lot so I will shorten it:

I checked this PDF: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/rules/

Very little, but focus is on PARKS

Everything says PARKS.. SO I emailed them and got this:

The first and most obvious route would be to look for signage. Our property is generally marked.

The second would be to use the Tax Administration website to determine property ownership. Once you determined who owns that land it would be your responsibility get permission from the property owner to ascertain what you can and can't do on that property. Here is the appropriate website: : http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/searc...x?mode=address

You can also contact the Park Authority at 703-324-8700 and ask for assistance. Our regulations are in place to protect our natural and cultural resources and therefore restrict the use or possession of tools which could be used to damage those resources.

In addition, the regulations were jointly adopted by the Fairfax County Park Authority and the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority. So the restrictions under the regulations apply on all parkland owned by the two agencies.

If you need to contact the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority you can do so at 703-352-5900."

So How exactly do we know whether or not the rules will apply? I saw something that mentioned having ANY tool is not allowed, like a shovel..

My answer, like theirs will be to READ SIGNS if you cannot find anything telling you not to do it, then you can say you had no way of knowing. (even though we are expected to research on our own even though its impossible)

I have only been asked to leave once, and I guess I get why- that park charges non-ffx residents..
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2013, 12:13 AM
dcast703 dcast703 is offline
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Why are my posts not being posted?
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:44 PM
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SeabeeRon SeabeeRon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcast703 View Post
Why are my posts not being posted?
As a new member your posts that have links in them go to a moderation que to avoid spamming. Your post seem to be here now.

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  #15  
Old 10-22-2013, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcast703 View Post
I have metal detected several times in FFX county. I have only been told to leave once, at burke lake park, because I was "removing resources that belonged to the park"... a whopping 4 cents.

Another time I was in a neighborhood near downtown FFX, it was public property, a small little field and play ground. I had some old guy pull up in his PT cruiser and stare at me for about 45 minutes. He was on the phone the whole time, talked to a homeowner across the street, read the rules on the sign, followed me around, then left...

I have emailed Fairfax and here is their response:

"The first and most obvious route would be to look for signage. Our property is generally marked.

The second would be to use the Tax Administration website to determine property ownership. Once you determined who owns that land it would be your responsibility get permission from the property owner to ascertain what you can and can't do on that property. Here is the appropriate website: : http://icare.fairfaxcounty.gov/searc...x?mode=address

You can also contact the Park Authority at 703-324-8700 and ask for assistance. Our regulations are in place to protect our natural and cultural resources and therefore restrict the use or possession of tools which could be used to damage those resources.

In addition, the regulations were jointly adopted by the Fairfax County Park Authority and the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority. So the restrictions under the regulations apply on all parkland owned by the two agencies.

If you need to contact the Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority you can do so at 703-352-5900.

Take care"

SO my take is... if it is a regulated PARK.. like Burke Lake (they charge money to non-ffx residents, and have a shop and putt putt etc etc..) then you should not metal detect. Any kind of regulated/maintained park, with the brown signs, you should be careful and probably avoid. If you go, READ THE SIGNS READ THE SIGNS READ THE SIGNS... that way you can say you had no way of knowing without going out of your way to find out. (which frankly, we are expected to do anyways..) If anyone asks you to leave; park ranger, police officer, citizen, it's usually a good idea to just go.

Now according to their responses, it his difficult to know for sure what kind of land will be park regulated, or to what degree. They make it sound like any land in FFX county is illegal to metal detect on... but then they put emphasis on PARKS... I asked how to tell if its a park of which the rules would apply to, and they said to look for signs.

I originally looked at the PDF on this page: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/rules/

The section about metal detecting again, refers to parks... I also saw somewhere that having ANY tool is not allowed, including shovels.

I hope that helps.
I live right down the street from Burke Lake. You cannot go there and metal detect at all. I'm surprised they just asked you to leave.

You need to find places out of the area to detect and find others that have access to good spots.

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