Avocational Metal Detecting Class in Chicago Sept 13-14

OGM !
The next thing you know they will put a tracking device in your arm !
(just kidding)
I guess I don't understand why they don't want you to dig old coin, and antiques and what you can find in the ground.. If you don't dig them, chances are they will remain there till the earth comes to an end.. If you do dig them at least some people will enjoy them for a time..
When I was out in Colorado we dug dinosaur bones with the Archaeological people.. Who would take the bones we found ,, categorizes them, look at them for 10 min, and put them in filing trays never to be seen again..
At least when we MD, when we find something, we look at it, admire it, show it to our friends, ( also people on Friendly Metal Detecting Forum) and when someone come over, show them the bootie we have found..

Same thing when I lived in Florida,, if you found an old coin on the beach, if you told them (Government) ,, "It was theirs". If you didn't pick it up, chances are it was gone forever in a few minutes.. (Mel Fisher comes to mind) if he hadn't found all that gold off diving, if would remain there forever, never to be seen by anyone and if it was never seen by anyone,,, its like it was never there..

Now I'll be the first one to say "you shouldn't go in and pillage a civil war sites and hoard away the proceeds, but to share it with other,, donate it to be put on display at the local library,, and when they are thru with it to return it to you... YOU FOUND IT ! it should be yours, NOT the Government..

Sorry,, I'm off my high horsy now..
I'd take the class just to see what they have to say if for no other reason..

Just My Take on This...

http://stoutstandards.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/paint-me-suspicious/#more-11316

Dick Stout, you should get a medal for that great link/article.

Pocket-spill: I know it sounds wonderful, to join in partnerships, create alliances, help them, etc... Because on the surface, since they're often seen as the "enemy". They tend to work with/for the govt, and back laws against us, right? SO WHO CAN ARGUE with "making friends" with them, so that there is peace and love between us all, eh?

Ah but as Dick shows, the "devil is in the details". While I know it sounds fun to seemingly get nilly-willy access to their historic sites they 'graciously' invite us to, yet .... trust me, it's as boring as h*ck I've worked with some archies before, and .... no ... it's not what you think. If you get a signal, you flag it, and THEY dig it up. With their tweezers, brushes, etc... And take an hour to do so, while meticulously recording the angle, depth, relationship to nearby ash or crockery, blah blah. Absolutely boring.

The dig I went on, I immediately got an array of hits, and pulled out my headphones to let the guy hear. And since the spot had had modern influence/traffic on the site, I could immediately perceive "pulltab", "zinc penny", "foil", and so forth. And as I reached down to dig one to show the archie, he stopped me, and flagged it (complete with meticulous GPS, etc...). Right away I could tell this was going to go nowhere. After flagging 10 other such signals (which would keep him busy for an entire day, but an md'r would dig in 3 minutes), I gave up.

I'm not saying we md'rs should never work side by side with historical preservation and archies (there's a few good projects that occurred), yet..... just saying .... be careful in thinking that we should make ourselves an object of their concern. Because at the core of their objectives and methods, md'ing (the type WE do) is diametrically opposed. And sometimes the LESS they think of us (and hence voice their say-so's and in-puts to government), the BETTER.

Dick Stout said:

http://stoutstandards.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/paint-me-suspicious/#more-11316

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Awesome post... I'd never sign that agreement!

"“I will neither purchase nor sell artifacts. I will not detect on any property without written permission of the land owner. I will record all discovered sites within 30 days with the state site files. I will keep records on the location of all materials I recover. I will not excavate any targets below the topsoil/plowzone. I will not disturb any human remains. I will report sites threatened by development or other actions to the state archaeologist or state historic preservation office. I will share data and knowledge with professional archaeologists. I will partner, when feasible, with professional archaeologists to assist in the preservation and study of archaeological resources. I will strive to be a responsible avocational detectorist. I understand that violation of this pledge may result in my name and contact information being removed from the APP database of responsible avocational detectorists.”"

GTHO of here! Laughable!

What do they plan to do for US? Give us recognition and then what? Seems everything they propose benefits them the most, and we get a piece of paper to hang on the wall?

First off, we have helped archies more often than not , only to be treated as if there is still and US vs THEM mindset.

Who says we aren't responsible? Them? $165 for two days and doesn't include lodging so they can give us a label that REALLY means what in the long run? That they dictate what, when, how we do our hobby?

Maybe I don't understand this fully, but seems one sided to me.

Where is the pledge they will sign that benefits US?

Also: I think the reason some American MD'rs eyes "wax romantic" at the thought of alliances with archies, is because of a mis-conception with the British system. Some American md'rs have come back from hunts in Britain, thinking it's a win win cooperation , as if there's some sort of free-for-all over there. But it's not at all like that. Oh sure, they "reimburse" you fair market value for whatever they take from you (because you're supposed to declare all important/historic finds). But wait: we're talking about finds on PRIVATE land. Because that's where 99% of British hunting goes on. And their laws say that resources under the ground (oil, natural resources, historic/cultural items, etc..) belong to the queen, EVEN when under private ground.

But not so in the USA. If farmer Bob finds a million dollar treasure chest, or oil, etc... on his land, it belongs to farmer Bob, NOT the USA government. So you and farmer Bob are free to split the item, or sell it on ebay, or keep it on your own mantle place, with NO interference from USA archies (when found on private land).

So the British system is often mis-understood, and causes American md'rs to rush to think that .... we too should start doing things with archies.

Now Im all for working with them and learning their ways to do things. I would even go help on a site their way anytime. But spend $165 to get lessons on how they want things done!...... No thanks! For free I would be in for sure.

I'm appreciative of the fact the class is happening and would be there had I not already committed to attending my 30 year class reunion that weekend. $165 for the 2-day class, especially with the cred of the presenters, is a bargain. I'm just guessing many of you never attend conferences/events like this?

I have worked with archaeologists pretty regularly and have found the experience rewarding and enjoyable and look forward to doing it again. Hell, I'll be presenting on a panel to Archaeologists at the SHA conference in Seattle this year... and consider it an honor to represent (some) of the detecting community.

I appreciate their rigor and methodology because I mostly understand the archaeological process (I am still learning.) It seems many detectorists do not... and they do not want to learn. Their loss IMO.

pocketspill said:

I'm appreciative of the fact the class is happening and would be there had I not already committed to attending my 30 year class reunion that weekend. $165 for the 2-day class, especially with the cred of the presenters, is a bargain. I'm just guessing many of you never attend conferences/events like this?

I have worked with archaeologists pretty regularly and have found the experience rewarding and enjoyable and look forward to doing it again. Hell, I'll be presenting on a panel to Archaeologists at the SHA conference in Seattle this year... and consider it an honor to represent (some) of the detecting community.

I appreciate their rigor and methodology because I mostly understand the archaeological process (I am still learning.) It seems many detectorists do not... and they do not want to learn. Their loss IMO.

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It's not that I wouldn't find it interesting or learn some things. I would enjoy it for sure. The fact is with a stay at home wife and two young kids both time and money are tight. I work tons of hours and a full weekend away from the family is rough. Then to top it off I think the $165 is a bit much being that I'm not into archeology so to speak. It's a subject that I would love to learn more about just not at that cost. If it involved being part of the team for a day at a well known site maybe. If it got your foot in the door to help (donate my time) on other sites in the area after the class I could see it also. But from the sounds of it it's just a class of how and why they approach a site in the way they do with no other perks after the fact.

IF only it were free and I lived in Chicago..... but alas, there are other ways to learn what archaeologists do... and for free.

pocketspill said:

.... I appreciate their rigor and methodology because I mostly understand the archaeological process (I am still learning.) It seems many detectorists do not... and they do not want to learn. Their loss IMO.

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No, it's not that we "don't want to learn". It's the fact that we ALREADY KNOW the parts of their "process" that is expressly opposed to us. Oh sure, it'd be nice to know about how they do things, just to be informed. But no, I'd be careful in parading yourself around them. Because sooner or later, those details come out, and then .... if that archy has any sort of say-so in legal bureaucratic processes (govt. archys), then I'd be hoping that we are NOT on their radar as something to think about.

So... i guess we detectorists should hold a detecting class for archaeologists and charge THEM 165 bucks as well. Fair is fair...

I feel that if they really wanted to narrow the gap, to find a way to come together, they would hold something akin to a roundtable discussion with give and take. The purpose being to draw up a program similar to the PAS in the UK. As it is they are dictating the terms and we are paying for it with our dollars.

Lastly why do we have to sign a pledge? It would seem to me that if someone is willing to pay $165 and travel to attend this class, that alone would indicate a sincere interest in the program.

Anyway....count me out.

How about a 5 sq yard piece of land, one for archeologist and one for a metal detector person.. we use our tools and they use there's (do they have one??) lets see who finds the walking liberty first.. I got 5 bucks on the MDer. It is too bad we can't work together,, but they, being the government and WAY out of control, it will never happen.. How sad, we've lost control of our government (7 trillion worth of control).

Put us on the payroll and change Avocational to Professional. After all it would take them years to learn what a good MD'er has just as it would take a MD'er to learn their trade. Sorry for the rant, but I offered my free time and help in the past and got snubbed. Then found out the area was turned into a parking lot. I love history and have no problem donating items to the local historic society.

That pledge could be the new metal detecting standard for all public areas. You will have to pay a fee for classes that will required just to go detecting. I already spend too much money on my hobbies.
Mike

Mikeguard01 said:

.... Sorry for the rant, but I offered my free time and help in the past and got snubbed. Then found out the area was turned into a parking lot.

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Mike, it's things like that expose the "true colors" of the inherent implicit definition of their methods. I'm sure they'd "offer classes" where it seems they're offering an olive branch of peace. But .... once you start un-peeling the layers of the onion, things like that will certainly come to the surface. Because you're right: they would be opposed to anyone with detectors doing old-town demolition sites, etc....

One time I saw dirt being hauled away in truck-loads from a history rich site. I made a feeble attempt to get the archie (who was "monitoring" this site d/t a E.I.R. mandate put on the contractor) to let us detect. But the lady-archie BRISTLED at the thought of any md'r doing that. When I pointed out the dirt was just being hauled off (to create river levees a few miles away), she just shrugged her shoulders and stuck to her answer.

pocketspill said:

Are you interested in working with professional archaeologists on sites? I can tell you first hand that it's a blast... and I do it as much as I can.

I just learned about the brand new Archaeological Partnership Program being put on with sponsorship from Minelab. It sounds very good - and is being put on by some of the best in the discipline.

I've put up the information about the class here:

Metal Detecting and Archaeology - New Class in Chicago Sept 13-14

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Thanks for the info on the upcoming program and directing me to the website for details. I always appreciate the opportunity to view professional arrogance on display.

Tom_in_CA said:

Mike, it's things like that expose the "true colors" of the inherent implicit definition of their methods. I'm sure they'd "offer classes" where it seems they're offering an olive branch of peace. But .... once you start un-peeling the layers of the onion, things like that will certainly come to the surface. Because you're right: they would be opposed to anyone with detectors doing old-town demolition sites, etc....

One time I saw dirt being hauled away in truck-loads from a history rich site. I made a feeble attempt to get the archie (who was "monitoring" this site d/t a E.I.R. mandate put on the contractor) to let us detect. But the lady-archie BRISTLED at the thought of any md'r doing that. When I pointed out the dirt was just being hauled off (to create river levees a few miles away), she just shrugged her shoulders and stuck to her answer.

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Tom,
A similar occurrence just happened last month on a battlefield. The dirt was hauled to a landfill. All the areas I detect have been disturbed. During the 1950's thru the 70's they would bulldoze entire areas just to put a small building or house up. This become very apparent looking at historic aerials of these areas. So nothing is located where it should be and an Archie dig would be fruitless, yet you can't detect a lot of these areas due to historical significance. I think that would be a great area for detectorists to find items for museums and other public displays, no Archie methods of recovery needed.
Mike