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  #121  
Old 08-29-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Skippy, love your inputs. And I did read everything. And I did consider doing a point-by-point refutation. But in the end, realized it would become pages long ping-pong game of data going back and forth. Right ? Thus since I DIDN'T address point by point, it's easy for you to say everything else you did about the "backfire effect" and "data doesn't matter", etc.... You assume I have no refutations and am just being stubborn and entrenched in my views ("blind to evidence" and so forth). But what's my choice ? To take pages and pages to bat-down each point with what could be more plausible explanations ? And then risk the ire of the mod's, and bore the heck out of readers ?

Yeah, sure, "treasures get found". I never said they don't (some make banner from time to time on forum show & tells after all). But does this fact therefore make any hokey ghost story legend unassailable ? Of course not. So the fact of "some treasures have existed" does not "therefore lend credence to all treasure legends". It does not logically follow.
HAHAAH!! Yep. I poked the bear.

I really have no stake in it, one way or the other Tom... I really was just in it for the entertainment. *Grin*

Personally, I think the # of treasure hunters in that country borders crazy... but keeping the dream alive is fun, too.

Your opinions are (or at least to my knowledge) constructed on a lifetime of experience and research. I'd stake your thought process against any supposed supposition of supposes, any day of the week. You're a gem, man, and if I ever get cranky, it's because my hormones are off, I'm sure.

Thanks for keeping things fun.

Cheers,

Skippy
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  #122  
Old 08-29-2017, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Haha, well first off, assuming there is even a "treasure" or "treasures" IN THE FIRST PLACE, your next jump in the logic train is spot-on. Who ... in their right mind ... goes around to remote islands burying it all over the place. And ... of course, with obligatory signs left on rocks . Eg.: cryptograms, clues, turtle drawing, maps passed down through the generations, etc... And are all, of necessity "6 meters deep" , and protected with booby traps, poison darts, etc... ( has someone watched one-too-many episodes of Raiders of the Lost Ark ? ).

But to "make common sense" doesn't phase the faithful. The lure of treasure (and this even assumes there's "treasure") is so strong, that people put common sense "more plausible explanations" aside. Thus there is most certainly treasure buried in every cave, in 100's of locations. I bet I can even find some cool cut-&-pastes to back up the assertions.
That's it Tom!!!! I'm tired of your nay-saying and poo-poo'ing all over this. If/when I find some of this treasure, I'm not going to give you any.

Honestly though, even if there is no mountain of treasure to be found, what does it hurt?

In addition, Nick can verify that he found WWII artifacts and other valuable items that treasure hunters like ourselves would love to find. That in itself makes the hunting worthwhile.

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  #123  
Old 08-29-2017, 08:41 PM
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I married into a Philipine family decades ago. At the time, round table discussions were commonplace for talk of "Marcos and Yamashita's hidden treasures" It was called blood money because many risked their lives, time and personal funds searching for it.

At the time, the stories and individual interests grew. Many Islanders were talking about it and sucking in anyone who would listen and ultimately get involved. After all, they were using the foreigners money to chase after it.

No matter how credible the story sounds, the contact person was far removed from the real deal.

Stories of US government aircraft shot down loaded with currencies used to fund the Phillipine opposition, Japanese Army robbing the land of it's wealth and stashing it away in the jungles, Marco's hidden cash, etc, etc, etc... may sound pretty sexy like a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" movie, but I've never seen nor heard of anyone coming back with a dime.

I've met Filipinos who tell stories of fearless tribesmen who will show you gold bars laid out on the beach in the Southern Island Mindanao, but again no one has come back with a dime. This is also home of the feared Abu Sayef Terrorists who would love to kidnap you and put you up for randsom or death.

Today in 2017, I don't hear much about these stories anymore. Maybe the interest isn't there anymore. The only ones who are making money in this are the consultants and guides who swear they know where it all is.

This is my experience I'd like to share, but maybe there are some people out there who have made their fortune there but are not talking about it. At least certainly not with the media.
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  #124  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Happa54 View post
... maybe there are some people out there who have made their fortune there but are not talking about it. .....
Good perspective from having married into a Philippine family. And illustrates how the stories circulate far and wide there

As for the above quote: This is the perpetual come-back line when doubts are expressed. Like even the wiki article on the subject states that nothing has been found . And casts major doubts on the famed Rogelio Roxus story as bogus. But when the "faithful" are shown this type critiques, it falls on deaf ears. They will just assume that it's NOT that treasures "aren't being found all the time". But rather: Conspiracies and secrecies. Ie.: people find them but don't talk. How do you counter dispute that ? You can't ! Perfect to explain the silence of no one ever coming forth with a dime.

Thus making claims of treasures bullet-proof indisputable, eh ?
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  #125  
Old 08-29-2017, 09:37 PM
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
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Originally Posted by Skippy SH13 View post
There's a whole lot more to the story than most folks realize... Yamashita's "treasure" wasn't just in one location. Legitimate reports show that a good dozen have been found but there are probably hundreds more. They may never be found... Here's an interesting excerpt from some real research done on the subject:

Whether you believe it or not, it's a dang intriguing story.. Get past the first part, Tom, which reads much like every other account, and it becomes intriguing FAST...


In a new book, Gold Warriors: America’s Secret Recovery of Yamashita’s Gold, Seagrave and his co-author (his wife, Peggy) have affirmed virtually all of what The Spotlight reported about Marcos and his rise to power-and of his ultimate ouster, including the reasons why.

But even more than that, the Seagraves have outlined the existence of an extraordinary hidden cache of gold-looted by infamous Japanese warlord Yamashita Tomoyuki from the nations of Asia prior to and during World War II—much of which (but not all) was later seized by American forces and used to fund what was called the Black Eagle Trust, a multi-national covert operations treasure chest utilized during the Cold War and up until, apparently, even today. And yes, Marcos himself recovered a big chunk of the treasure. This was, as The Spotlight said to much criticism, the real source of his wealth.

Big names such as former U.S. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, John J. McCloy, head of the World Bank, General Edward Lansdale and others are just a few of the familiar figures whose roles in the shadowy Black Eagle Trust are recounted by the Seagraves. The tentacles of this massive treasure reach throughout the big banks of the world today and its economic impact has never before been outlined in such amazing detail.
It seems that no American president has been in the dark about the existence of this gold horde—much of which still remains hidden, buried, in the Philippine islands and elsewhere in the Pacific and which is still the subject of wide-ranging treasure hunts.

According to the Seagraves, as late as March 2001—in the early weeks of the newly-minted George W. Bush administration, associates of the Bush family were evidently deeply involved in the treasure-hunting and in efforts to profit from the sale and transfer of the recovered treasure. And what is of particular note is that, so say the Seagraves, two U.S. Navy ships were being utilized in the effort.

What about the Marcos connection? The Spotlight asserted that Marcos’s actual wealth—in unaccounted billions—stemmed from the fact that Marcos had actually recovered a large cache of the hidden gold in the days following the end of World War II. Critics said The Spotlight was wrong and that Marcos had actually stolen billions from his nation’s treasury. Now, however, the Seagraves cite no less an authority than retired General John Singlaub, a vaunted hero of both World War II and Korea who finished up his career as the top U.S. military commander in Korea, dismissed by then-President Jimmy Carter.

Singlaub actually became quite active in the covert American efforts to recover the “Yamashita treasure” and, according to Singlaub, “I knew from past experience that stories of buried Japanese gold in the Philippines were legitimate. Marcos’s $12 billion fortunate actually came from [this] treasure, not skimmed-off U.S. aid. But Marcos had only managed to rake off a dozen or so of the biggest sites. That left well over a hundred untouched.”
This, of course, means that Yamashita’s gold—which amounts to certainly hundreds of billions in value, probably trillions—was a real source of power and influence for Marcos and, in the end, proved not only to be a source of his rise to power, but, ultimately, his undoing.

The Seagraves relate—echoing The Spotlight—that when Marcos demanded a higher-than-usual commission for lending a portion of his gold horde to the Reagan administration in order to prop up a Reagan scheme to manipulate the world gold market, this was the beginning of Marcos’ downfall. As a consequence, then U.S. CIA-Director William Casey set in motion the riots and protests that began creating trouble for Marcos in the streets of Manila.
Although Casey flew to Manila, along with U.S. Treasury Secretary Donald Regen, CIA economist Professor Higdon and an attorney, Lawrence Kreager, to give Marcos a “last chance”, the Philippine nationalist would not buckle. Higdon told Marcos that he would be out of power “in two weeks” for not appeasing the international banking houses and their agents in the American administration.

The Seagraves report that a source close to Marcos advised them that Marcos was then approached by an emissary from David Rockefeller’s Trilateral Commission asking Marcos to contribute $54 billion in gold bullion to a so-called “global development fund”. Marcos’ response was to consign the Trilateral demand into a waste basket.
In no short order, of course, Marcos was forced from office and flown to Hawaii with his family where they were held effectively under house arrest. Marcos and his wife told many people—including reporters from The Spotlight—that they had never expected to be taken to Hawaii, that they had, instead, expected to be flown to safety from Manila to Marco’s home island of Ilocos Norte.

In the meantime, billions of dollars worth of gold certificates that the Marcos [couple] had taken with them were confiscated by the U.S. government. But when the Marcoses demanded the return of the certificates, the U.S. said the certificates were “fake”.
In other words, the Reagan administration casually and ruthlessly stole billions from the Marcos, at the same time helping perpetuate the media myth that the Marcos family had stolen billions from their own nation’s treasury.

(And it should be noted, for the historical record, that one of the key behind-the-scenes Reagan administration operatives plotting against Marcos was one Paul Wolfowitz, now internationally known today as one of the prime movers behind the American effort to depose Saddam Hussein—probably no coincidence considering Saddam’s refusal, like Marcos, to surrender his nation’s sovereignty to international banking interests.)
The Seagraves also outline—and this will interest many people—the strange dealings of the John Birch Society (as far back as the mid-1970s) in a scheme to cut business arrangements with the Marcos regime in the marketing of some $20 billion of Marcos’ private gold horde. These deals fell through and, in the end, the Birchers fell out with their partners in the scheme. Evidently Congressman Larry McDonald (D-Ga.), then a leader of the Birch group, was privy to these events and thus evidently knew quite a bit about the international Black Eagle Trust at the time of his death. [The “shoot down” of flight KAL 007 is still surrounded by mystery.]

Considering the fact that The Spotlight was the only American newspaper to honestly report on the behind-the-scenes intrigues that led to the destruction of Ferdinand Marcos, it was no coincidence that after his ouster, Marcos gave The Spotlight several exclusive interviews at his home in exile in Hawaii, pushing The Spotlight to the top of a long list of worldwide newspapers clamoring for the opportunity to interview the fallen leader.
It turns out that, at precisely the time when The Spotlight was interviewing Marcos, a young American CIA operative, Alan Foringer, was deeply involved in the covert operations trying to secure what remained of the Yamashita (and Marcos) gold.

So, it’s probably no coincidence, again, that Foringer popped up at The Spotlight’s offices on a number of occasions, posing as an international businessman. It was only the publication of the Seagrave’s book that exposed precisely who Foringer really was: a CIA figure trying to find out what The Spotlight knew (if anything) about the Marcos treasure. Foringer himself later died under mysterious circumstances, probably a victim of murder.

These are just a few of the revelations appearing in the 332 detail-packed pages of this remarkable new book, one which is thoroughly documented. The Seagraves know that they risked a great deal by bringing out these facts but they say right up front that “if we are murdered, readers will have no difficulty figuring out who ‘they’ are.” (Source: Existence of Secret WWII Gold Horde Confirmed, Exclusive to American Free Press, By Michael Collins Piper, http://www.preferrednetwork.com/GOLD_WARRIORS.htm
I will definatly have to check out that book , it sound interesting.

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  #126  
Old 08-30-2017, 07:56 AM
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
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Originally Posted by Skippy SH13 View post

. What follows is a degree of boredom filled with "passing of time." For true intentions, please see the picture below.


Tom, I don't disagree. Maybe the better phrasing would have been, "more plausible" or, "Possibly credible."

It's well known, and very documented (especially by you!, LOL) that most reports and the treasure hunters stories are amplified by time and rumor. It's also well documented that treasure does get found.

We should also all consider that if a person were to come across the treasure and NOT want it to be taken away, the last thing they'd do is widely publicize the info. Treasures are often found and NEVER publicly made known. It happens.

So... could there be credibility in the reporting of what happened between the governments and with the Marcos family? Could they have found a portion of the treasure? Sure. It's Possible. Is it likely? Well... that is actually an irrelevant contemplation, because ultimately, it's NOT about probabilities. It either happened or it didn't. Whether any individual believes or argues one way or the other doesn't change whether or not it happened or didn't. Reality is not put to a Vote. We can wonder, but we cannot know. Trying to convince everyone something did happen when it did not is JUST as absurd as trying to convince everyone something didn't happen when it did.

Let me add to this conversation in this way:

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-b...-win-arguments

The backfire effect shows that in an "argument" when an individual is presented with facts, data, testimony, eyewitness info, etc... contrary to an entrenched viewpoint, those things actually MORE entrench them. Data does not matter. Any data (anecdotal, real or somewhere in between), that presents an alternative viewpoint that MAY refute or challenge their belief, results in them becoming MORE entrenched as a result of the conversations, even if they're wrong.

So, knowing that principle... It means, that you sir, (or me, or anyone entrenched) everytime it is argued against the possibility of Yamashita's treasure and someone adds "possibility" to the conversation, your brain is hard-wired to shoot it down. The data I provided was a possibility. You dismissed it instantly with "it's copy-paste." I actually saw it coming, and laughed out loud (for realz) when I read your post. It's been my experience that you will dismiss anything related to this...outright.

Basically, you are so incredibly entrenched in the idea that Yamashita's treasure is ridiculous rumor, that even if it has been found in whole, or in part, that you would be MORE likely to dismiss it as copy-paste, additional rumor, or fantastic stories, even if someone confronts you with even more details, such as documentation, eye-witness statements, research, and government involvement (both circumstantial and legitimate), simply because there is plausible deniability in the fact that documentation can be forged, eye-witnesses can be wrong, and the government is all about mis-information anyway... You brain is wired to be correct, and it is likely so entrenched it will dismiss everything. Even now, you're probably dismissing things...

You appear to be entrenched so deeply, that anytime I see you enter a conversation about the Philippines, it is to disparage the rumors, dismiss them, and otherwise downplay the possibility of any treasure. This is based on my own observations of your statements. now... That doesn't mean your opinion is wrong... not by any means... In fact, you may be right on the money on whomever is posting their latest squiggly marked rock! It just gives strong evidence that your opinion would not likely be swayed by any evidence, real, or circumstantial to the contrary.

And yet... we have a legitimate 1980's treasure hunter who lived, eat, and breathed the search for buried loot. Stuff exists... just didn't manage to find the stuff he was looking for.

In the end:
Yamashita's treasure could have been found in part, or in whole and you'll never believe it. Not one word. Even if you were shown pictures, you'd still claim it was faked. You have (and none of us know if they're faked, either). The Marcos story is one specific set of details that is fairly well documented... the claims aren't that the gold existed... it's that they found some of it, and then leveraged it into greater wealth.

Yamashita's treasure was in fact STOLEN. It exists. We don't know where its been placed, but it was, in fact put somewhere. It could be in whole or in part still out there. Yamashita's treasure also includes the various stockpiles of looted goods from the Philippines. The US ordered the destruction of all mines in 1941 and 1942 (as they were strategic points of resources). Any number of loot points could have been buried. Even a simple map showing the based of operations by the Japanese could yield results of stockpiles of military goods or loot... Most of these have been lost to time, but there are STILL military stockpiles being found. This is fact, not fiction.

So... bottom line for me, how many rumors do shipwreck hunters wade through, before they can piece together the real story (and then usually GRID search multiple areas so thoroughly as to not miss a wreck), before finding it. There's a lesson to be learned there. People will say, "you'll never find it, it's all rumor!" but the reality is that ships went down, and the gold is there. Yamashita's treasure exists... Found or not, I do not know.

Then on top of it... maybe Marcos family tortured details out of Rogelio... Maybe the gold was put into the world markets by corrupt governments... Maybe it's still out there, actively being found, but never reported here... and don't be so quick as to dismiss that a random spot of loot isn't periodically found... because when and if it is, the LAST thing someone in the Philippines would do is report it. Why? Marcos is reported to have tortured the location out of Rogelio! There's a strong reason to keep it quiet!

Put it all together, and who knows... maybe there have been a dozen or more people who have found treasure stashes in the Philippines in the last several decades... We don't know...

One last parting comment (and it has nothing to do with real or not). Indiana Jones has nothing on the OP.. Pretty cool stuff, eh?
You might need a biger & sharper stick with Tom to get the point accross.

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  #127  
Old 08-30-2017, 08:12 AM
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mud-puppy View post
I for one am Loving your participation here Nick! Thanks for the adventurous posts!
What Nick was doing in the 1980's over there while only in his 20's , with no aid of cell phones , computers , internet research , modern equipment including a 1980's Whites detector, while serving in the military in that remote area. Sure beats the heck out of what i was doing over here at the time and age, The Philippines as well as the rest of the world was a very diffrent place then. Please keep up the post Nick and love the pictures.

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  #128  
Old 08-30-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
You might need a biger & sharper stick with Tom to get the point accross.
Haha. It's a tough job being a kill-joy. But someone's got to do it.
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  #129  
Old 08-30-2017, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
Haha. It's a tough job being a kill-joy. But someone's got to do it.
You are very good at it

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  #130  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:16 PM
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Default Imelda Marcos said she has 7000 bars of gold.

Wow. A senior Philippine politician recently reported that Imelda Marcos said she had 7,000 bars of gold she would be willing to donate to the Philippine government. I wonder if she keeps the gold with her shoes. Would explain nicely where Yamashita's treasure went. See-- my Steel's Treasure and Steel's Gold novels weren't lies. You can see the article on my ncauclair Member Links Thread here.

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  #131  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:16 PM
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Default Imelda Marcos said she has 7000 bars of gold.

Wow. A senior Philippine politician recently reported that Imelda Marcos said she had 7,000 bars of gold she would be willing to donate to the Philippine government. I wonder if she keeps the gold with her shoes. Would explain nicely where Yamashita's treasure went. See-- my Steel's Treasure and Steel's Gold novels weren't lies. You can see the article on my ncauclair homepage here.
http://philippineslifestyle.com/blog...llion-dollars/
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  #132  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ncauclair View post
Wow. A senior Philippine politician recently reported that Imelda Marcos said ....
You are aware that there's been speculation that she was talking tongue-in-cheek, right ? Eg.: the perpetual questions so that eventually she/they just say "sure, yeah".

Example: Kind of like how Area 51 (steeped with UFO lore) officials keep getting peppered with questions. And finally one of them just said: "Yup, we're keeping captured alien aircraft blah blah ". The media got wind of that and had a field day. Eg.: Aha! they admit it! When it was just disgust at the perpetual questions and an equally silly answer.

I'm sure the USA (fort knox) can show an equally impressive photograph of our gold reserves too. Does that mean we too have found a Yamashita treasure ?
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  #133  
Old 08-31-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
You are aware that there's been speculation that she was talking tongue-in-cheek, right ? Eg.: the perpetual questions so that eventually she/they just say "sure, yeah".

Example: Kind of like how Area 51 (steeped with UFO lore) officials keep getting peppered with questions. And finally one of them just said: "Yup, we're keeping captured alien aircraft blah blah ". The media got wind of that and had a field day. Eg.: Aha! they admit it! When it was just disgust at the perpetual questions and an equally silly answer.

I'm sure the USA (fort knox) can show an equally impressive photograph of our gold reserves too. Does that mean we too have found a Yamashita treasure ?
We get it. You don't think there is a treasure. Why keep saying the same thing over and over?

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  #134  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:46 PM
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Naah not Ft. Knox-- took it of the bars stacked up in my basement.
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  #135  
Old 08-31-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpa View post
... Why keep saying the same thing over and over? ...
To address the (supposed) proofs that keep being posted "over and over".
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  #136  
Old 08-31-2017, 09:48 PM
davidlhyde63366 davidlhyde63366 is offline
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Default Gold bars

Originally Posted by Grumpa View post
We get it. You don't think there is a treasure. Why keep saying the same thing over and over?
We will have to see if the Marcos family actually gives any of the gold bars back or not , it would be a good way to set Imelda or her son ,both are still in politics there , up as a future canadate for President. They can always steal it back later. I saw several reports of the report in diffrent over seas papers.

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Old 08-31-2017, 09:56 PM
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Default Japanese treasure

Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View post
To address the (supposed) proofs that keep being posted "over and over".
I don't think Tom would beleive the gold was real , even if he was locked in room with it.

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  #138  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ncauclair View post
Wow. A senior Philippine politician recently reported that Imelda Marcos said she had 7,000 bars of gold she would be willing to donate to the Philippine government. I wonder if she keeps the gold with her shoes. Would explain nicely where Yamashita's treasure went. See-- my Steel's Treasure and Steel's Gold novels weren't lies. You can see the article on my ncauclair Member Links Thread here.

<<Link to your site was removed from this post and copied to your thread in Member Links. Once again, please limit posts with links to your site to the one thread allowed in our ML sub forum.>>
Any one wanting to read some of the many new , news paper articles on the marcos gold bars, can Google Marcos gold bars , there are lots of links to diffrent papers reporting it currently.

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  #139  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
I don't think Tom would beleive the gold was real , even if he was locked in room with it.

Not sure how you jump from someone pointing out "more plausible explanations", to this other extreme. OF COURSE if proof is offered, then it ceases to be the camp-fire-legend lore caliber story.


IMHO the measure of a good and true treasure hunter is the person who asks the hard-questions of the stories he's being told. To explore if more plausible explanations exist. And the measure of a lesser qualified treasure hunter (more likely to waste time) is one that simply believes any story put in front of him, with dreamy glossed over eyes. In the end: The critical thinker is going to be the one who comes in with the most finds. JMHO
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  #140  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:22 PM
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Tom_in_CA Tom_in_CA is offline
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Originally Posted by davidlhyde63366 View post
Any one wanting to read some of the many news paper articles can Google Marcos gold bars , there are lots of links to diffrent papers reporting it.
What about the explanation and example I posted for that in #52 ? Or how about the wiki article on the subject that gives counter data to the various points of the story ?
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