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Legal definition for "damaging grass"

CalReg

Forum Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
875
Location
San Jose, CA
I have been in contact with the local city parks and recreation director regarding MD'ing in parks in the city I live. Her response was "metal detecting in this city is officially illegal". When I asked her what law states that, she pointed me in the direction of the local municipal code. Within that code, there is NOTHING that says using a metal detector is illegal, but what she added was that "damaging the grass" was a municipal code violation. I guess digging is illegal (I'm thinking using a large shovel), but what if the digging is done in a thoughtful manner (a plug done with a hand trowel) where the grass can recover, and there is little if any evidence that I even dug a hole when I'm finished? What happens if people playing a sport that requires cleats (soccer, baseball, etc), dig up the grass? Wouldn't they in theory be in violation of the municipal code? Sorry for the rant, but I'm trying to do the right thing. If I need to buy a permit and pay a fee, fine, I'm willing to do that, but if there is no law against using a metal detector, I'm at a loss for words...:?:
 
Well the use of a metal detector might be legal, but the after effects of digging isn't. Speaking from a legal scope.. If the law is interpreted that digging is damaging the grass, then you can't dig. You can't justify small holes vs big holes, or try to change it around, they said you can't do it. There's plenty of people here who go to places with the same rules and roll the dice, but that's your own thing. As far as your cleats argument, it's a waste of breath. Those are designated fields for the activity that is still not digging.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but there's a few recent threads like this where it's pointed out that sometimes it's easier to go dig and get kicked out, since asking a head of time gets you the no.
 
I have been in contact with the local city parks and recreation director regarding MD'ing in parks in the city I live. ..............:?:

This took 5 seconds to find. Does it not apply? I'm just going by the location in your profile.

https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments/parks-recreation-neighborhood-services/permits

Metal Detecting
Application forms can be picked up at Leininger Center. Completed applications must be submitted to the park reservation staff at Leininger Center, 1300 Senter Road (inside Kelley Park), Monday - Friday, 8:30am - 4:40pm.

Yearly application fee of $40 and $1 for each detector card (first card is included in the application fee).
 
ToySoldier, it's not San Jose. I already have a permit for that. I didn't want to identify the city I'm talking about for fear of opening up a can of worms, but it's nearby...
 
I have been in contact with the local city parks and recreation director regarding MD'ing in parks in the city I live. Her response was "metal detecting in this city is officially illegal". When I asked her what law states that, she pointed me in the direction of the local municipal code. Within that code, there is NOTHING that says using a metal detector is illegal, but what she added was that "damaging the grass" was a municipal code violation. I guess digging is illegal ....

Well here we have it folks. Another "case example" of the phenomenon of : "No one cared till you asked".

Cal-Reg : I got news for you : If those "deface" and "alter" type boiler plate minutia means "No md'ing", then there's not a single park in the entire USA that doesn't have the same wording (in some form or fashion). And it might even use the evil word "dig". But seriously : If you leave no trace, then presto, you haven't alterED or defacED or dUg anything, right ?

I'll bet that the gal you talked to probably never gave the matter a moment's thought before you came in with the "pressing question". So the images of "holes" come to her mind, so she reaches for the "safe answer". I've seen this happen over and over in my 45-ish yrs. of md'ing.

And I notice that you're from San Jose, right ? Was it the city of San Jose that you were inquiring about (or one of the other cities in the south bay area ?). If it was San Jose proper, are you aware that there is actually a permit issued for San Jose city parks ? It used to be passed out via the san Jose club. But that club went defunct about a year ago, I think. Yet you can get the straight from city hall somehow still, I think.

But the dirty little secret is : No one there can EVER remember ever getting "carded " to show it. And you'll be hardpressed to find someone in city hall to even know what you're talking about (since the club used to administer them, and give the city a single check, 1x per year. But since there's no club anymore, I'm not sure how it's done now)

Trust me: You can detect San Jose area parks till you're blue in the face. I'm an hour south of you and have hunted parks there all the time (although there's no longer any good ones IMHO). Just don't stick out like a sore thumb. Pick low traffic hours. Don't be in the middle of deep holes if busy-bodies are watching.

And in the future, just look up laws/rules for yourself. If you don't see anything that says "No md'ing", then presto: Not disallowed.
 
This took 5 seconds to find. Does it not apply? I'm just going by the location in your profile.

https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments/parks-recreation-neighborhood-services/permits

Metal Detecting
Application forms can be picked up at Leininger Center. Completed applications must be submitted to the park reservation staff at Leininger Center, 1300 Senter Road (inside Kelley Park), Monday - Friday, 8:30am - 4:40pm.

Yearly application fee of $40 and $1 for each detector card (first card is included in the application fee).


Bingo. There you go. Good sleuthing work toy-soldier. This is the permit that I alluded to, that none of the San Jose guys can ever recall getting carded to show anyone.

In fact, a buddy of mine was detecting in a San Jose park. He saw several park workers working on a fountain in the middle of the park. So he went over to their area, and made purposeful circles around them, for 20 minutes, as they worked. He wanted to see if he'd get carded (he had his permit in his wallet). But they paid him absolutely no mind. Doh ! :laughing:
 
Thanks Tom! That was my thinking after my exchange...and by the way, it wasn't San Jose, it was a neighboring city (10 minutes away). Regardless, I usually MD early in the morning where there aren't a lot of people and tend to be finished by 9 am...
 
ToySoldier, it's not San Jose. I already have a permit for that. I didn't want to identify the city I'm talking about for fear of opening up a can of worms, but it's nearby...


A few observations here :

1) No matter WHAT city it is : If there's nothing that says "no md'ing", then presto, no permission or permit needed.

2) And this is an example of a phenomenon I've noticed: If there is EVER a city that dreamed up a "permit" for md'ing (which is actually VERY RARE), then it has an odd effect on people : When newbies hear of how such & such city has a "permit", then their eyes wax romantic. It conjurs up images of being able to detect nilly-willy, right ? So they somehow figure that others city's, likewise, might have them. So they go around asking. Or they figure that *merely* because a certain city has permits, that therefore it implies that md'ing ISN'T allowed, UNLESS someone has princely sanction.

So I almost cringe when someone comes on to md'ing forums talking about a permit that their city has. Because it seems to imply that "permits" (or permissions) are needed elsewhere. On the contrary : If the law is silent on the subject (not prohibited) then: That's good enough.



We need Tom in here.

Tom to the rescue :laughing: My rates are reasonable after all: 30% of all your finds :D
 
Thanks Tom! That was my thinking after my exchange...and by the way, it wasn't San Jose, it was a neighboring city (10 minutes away). Regardless, I usually MD early in the morning where there aren't a lot of people and tend to be finished by 9 am...

Not a problem. We all learn. So now you know the drill : Look up laws/rules for yourself, if you're skittish.

In this day and age, you can find all muni codes, laws, park rules, etc... on line.
 
ToySoldier, it's not San Jose. I already have a permit for that. I didn't want to identify the city I'm talking about for fear of opening up a can of worms, but it's nearby...

Gotcha.

Given no signage or anything specific on their website, you now know how the person responsible for the parks interprets the "damaging" law if it came to that point. Maybe she's even trained the staff to run off anybody with a detector.

Or, maybe she's the only parks employee who cares and she retires next week. Turnover is a good reason to avoid pushing it and winding up with a specific rule on the books or even just their website.
 
.... Maybe she's even trained the staff to run off anybody with a detector.....

I have actually seen cases, where the origin starting kernel for such "run off" scenarios, is the following : Someone goes in and asks "Can I?". They receive the "safe answer" from some desk-jockey who ... perhaps never even gave the matter a moment's thought prior to that.

So then guess what happens the NEXT time that person is passing by the park and sees a man with a detector ? They will recall the earlier inquiry & subconsciously say to themselves : "Aha ! there's one of *them* !" And start booting others. I've seen this series of events before.

Moral of the story ? Don't swat hornet's nests.
 
I never get it . What do people expect for an answer from a city official when they ask if they can detect? Yeah sure go ahead ? No problem have a ball? Wake up people the odds of getting approval are about the same as getting eaten by a shark on land . Just detect and fill up your holes and pick up the garbage. But for gods sake don’t be all shocked when you inevitably get told NO!
 
I was just reading regulations for a nearby city. I'm guessing they could charge you with walking across a soccer field if they were in an ornery mood...

"15.03 UNLAWFUL CONDUCT PROHIBITED. It shall be unlawful for any person to
commit any of the following acts in or upon any public park within the City.

(1) VANDALISM. To soil, deface, injure, remove, damage, upset or destroy any
building, fence, fountain, bench, table, receptacle, fireplace, tree, bush, flower or other object situated, used or kept upon park grounds. "
 
Unless a physical sign at the park specifically says "no metal detecting" (and alas, a neighboring county to me does have such a sign at all county parks), I don't worry about it.

The "thou shall not disrupt the turf" prohibition is pretty subjective. If you know how to dig a proper plug, and clean up after yourself, you are not, ultimately, "disrupting the turf". IMHO, leave it as you found it and you are good to go.

At the end of the day, it is about who is going to care. Most municipalities (at least around here), outsource the landscaping. Unless you are digging a hole to the center of the earth, they are not gonna care. I smile at the folks mowing the grass, and they smile at me, and all ends well. YMMV of course.
 
I was just reading regulations for a nearby city. I'm guessing they could charge you with walking across a soccer field if they were in an ornery mood...

"15.03 UNLAWFUL CONDUCT PROHIBITED. It shall be unlawful for any person to
commit any of the following acts in or upon any public park within the City.

(1) VANDALISM. To soil, deface, injure, remove, damage, upset or destroy any
building, fence, fountain, bench, table, receptacle, fireplace, tree, bush, flower or other object situated, used or kept upon park grounds. "

There's no reason to believe metal detecting (using reasonable target recovery techniques) was in mind when they wrote it. As TomInCa points out, that language exists on the books in every city, either in the park rules or the city ordinances for all public property. Yet, people detect with no issues in the vast majority of city and county parks. It's a catch all to stop people from breaking stuff or steal landscaping, and idiots absolutely would dig up ornamental plants and take them home if you didn't have a law against it. Where no specific metal detecting rule or law exists, it's going to be either case-by-case or a local interpretation.
 
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If unsure just remember the old saying “It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to get permission”.
 
There's no reason to believe metal detecting (using reasonable target recovery techniques) was in mind when they wrote it.

I'm not suggesting it was. In fact, I think it's kind of an over-reach. The government is happy to collect our tax dollars to support recreation. I'm going over to the referenced town, if it stops raining, and plan to detect said soccer field and see what happens. I don't expect any opposition, but it will be a fun experiment. I mean, honestly, Wisconsin is called the "Badger State" because of the holes men dug in the ground searching for lead. Administrators should know their roots!
 
I'm not suggesting it was. In fact, I think it's kind of an over-reach. The government is happy to collect our tax dollars to support recreation. I'm going over to the referenced town, if it stops raining, and plan to detect said soccer field and see what happens. I don't expect any opposition, but it will be a fun experiment. I mean, honestly, Wisconsin is called the "Badger State" because of the holes men dug in the ground searching for lead. Administrators should know their roots!

Oh, I know you were just posting it as an example.

One day I was detecting on a school property and when I stopped and took a look around me I realized there were mole hills all around me. I wondered how it would look to somebody just passing by. I took a moment to stomp them down.
 
...

(1) VANDALISM. To soil, deface, injure, remove, damage, upset or destroy any
building, fence, fountain, bench, table, receptacle, fireplace, tree, bush, flower or other object situated, used or kept upon park grounds. "

Johnny-phoenix : I guarantee you that language to that effect exists at EVERY SINGLE PARK in the USA. In some form or fashion.

Ok, now go to the show & tell page of FMDF. Scan down the list of posts, and you'll see SCORES of people posting their bragging rights from : Drum roll .... PARKS . How can that be ? Are they all lawless miscreants ? :?:
 
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