lookiethere
Junior Member
This was found near the shore of a local lake by my detecting buddy Ed. It kinda blows my mind that between 2000 to 6000 years ago someone threw a spear at an animal and lost this.
Copper culture spear point
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Tom_in_CA
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For you guys that live where the "copper culture" existed, I can only imagine what a cool find that is !
It's amazing that only a minuscule percentage/area of Native Americans ever developed metal usage in the USA. Like in CA, they had utterly no development of metals here. Even in the CA Sierra foothills (which had no shortage of Indian population), where they could have at least picked up nuggets, that were visible to the naked eye at the time. After all, some South American Indian cultures had figured that out. But in North American, very little development of metals, except in your area. But go-figure: Some of that crude copper just sticks out of the ground naturally anyhow.
thanx for sharing the pix.
It's amazing that only a minuscule percentage/area of Native Americans ever developed metal usage in the USA. Like in CA, they had utterly no development of metals here. Even in the CA Sierra foothills (which had no shortage of Indian population), where they could have at least picked up nuggets, that were visible to the naked eye at the time. After all, some South American Indian cultures had figured that out. But in North American, very little development of metals, except in your area. But go-figure: Some of that crude copper just sticks out of the ground naturally anyhow.
thanx for sharing the pix.
EmuDetector
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That is amazing!
yooper69
Elite Member
Very cool and rare. I have been lucky enough to find 2 myself in the last 10 years. Thanks for sharing
JohnnyPhoenix
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I can't say this with absolute certainty, but copper culture is part of why Wisconsin has some of the worst public access laws in the nation. There was a push about 10-15 years ago to get legislation on the books to allow for more detecting on public properties. It was making it's way through the various committees, but then Native American interests stepped in and the bill died. Their attorneys pointed to ebay listings for copper culture artifacts that claimed to be found metal detecting in and around Copper Culture State Park. After that, no legislator wanted to be associated with the bill.
Some time later, the DNR's archaeological person strictly interpreted the law on the books and prohibited detecting on state properties without a permit, and the only way you could get a permit was by requesting one from the property manager to look for a *specific* lost item that has to be described on the permit. You are supposed to turn over anything you find that's not noted in the permit, and anything over 50 years old or older is considered an artifact of the state. So yes, that 1968 Lincoln penny is off limits.
I should add that this gets even weirder. If you're recreationally prospecting for gold or other metals, you can allegedly use a metal detector in addition to a gold pan or other methods. Hey, I don't write these laws, I just read them...
Some time later, the DNR's archaeological person strictly interpreted the law on the books and prohibited detecting on state properties without a permit, and the only way you could get a permit was by requesting one from the property manager to look for a *specific* lost item that has to be described on the permit. You are supposed to turn over anything you find that's not noted in the permit, and anything over 50 years old or older is considered an artifact of the state. So yes, that 1968 Lincoln penny is off limits.
I should add that this gets even weirder. If you're recreationally prospecting for gold or other metals, you can allegedly use a metal detector in addition to a gold pan or other methods. Hey, I don't write these laws, I just read them...
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7centsworth
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That is a really cool find. It is interesting how different people of different cultures used such different tools
cellrdwellr
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Those are so cool! Really hope to find one someday. I realize most are found in MI/WI, but I would imagine at least a few made it East. Thanks for sharing!
Tom_in_CA
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Why the heck was it even on someone's plate there, to need-to-decide IN THE FIRST PLACE ?
Bill_Ace_350
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I always found it fascinating that cultures on different continents developed the same technology - bows and arrows.
7centsworth
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Never thought about that. Got me to thinking now.
JohnnyPhoenix
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Why the heck was it even on someone's plate there, to need-to-decide IN THE FIRST PLACE ?
The DNR manages a lot of state owned land, so I guess the guy was tasked with writing new regulations, which happened a lot at the DNR around 2011. I just remember one conversation with the guy over the Lincoln penny question and how adamant he was over the 50 year thing. What's really stupid (in my opinion) is any regulation so after the fact. Much of the detectable items are long gone, with mostly new drops taking place. I never knew a bunch of middle-aged guys (socially distanced) in a ball cap and headphones, walking slowly, staring at the the ground was so disruptive to a park-going society, but here we are?!
Dane County, WI, on the other hand, has a free permit system that allows you to detect in their parks and properties. It's good for three years and the only real limitation is on the size of digging tool used: no shovels, just small hand tools. Follow the metal detecting code of ethics such as fill your holes and try to preserve the appearance of the park. Fair enough!
We now return you to Ooooing and Ahhhing over that really cool copper spear point!
Bill_Ace_350
Elite Member
I always thought it was amazing.
Doesn't seem "hi-tech", but still interesting the same almost identical tool was developed in so many distant, Geographically separated places..
Tom_in_CA
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Ok. But this doesn't answer the question of WHY he was "tasked" with this. Ie.: what put it on-his-plate, as "something to be *tasked* with .... " IN THE FIRST PLACE .
HHmmm, I think I'm starting to see my question answered, by the implicit connecting of dots, from your own statements . You were "in a conversation" with him. So he must now "address your pressing issue". Right ? And even if it wasn't you as the "starting kernal", yet the same psychology went before you, with the prior sincere md'rs "seeking clarifications". Then then the ball-starts-rolling. Ie.: the moment that official(s), who "fielded the pressing questions", take a negative stance, then guess what all the subsequent md'rs are going to do ? They're going to go objecting, seeking yet-more clarifications, etc... And before you know it : A giant self-fulfilling vicious circle.
And that "guy" you talked to, must put-your-question past other desks. One of which will no doubt be the staff archie (who .... odds are .... would never have happen-chance passed an md'r in the field). Aaarrghh.
You're right. Those old geezers out with their "geiger counters" are NOT "disruptive". But they simply become the latest victims of the "No one cared till you asked" psychology routine. And then they sit around and lament their lack of freedoms. AAarrgghh.
Johnny, I know "permits" sound wonderful. Eh ? Conjures up images of being able to detect "nilly-willy", eh ? And the minute anyone ever mentions such a thing on a forum (that their particular place dreamed up), is the minute that others therefore go inquiring at whatever places they come to. Eg.: To check to see if they can get "permit", or if their place has one, etc....
The trouble THEN becomes, is the same "no one cared till you asked" vicious loop. And even if places ever DID dream up a permit, they are usually riddled with sillyness. Eg.: "Yes but you can't dig." Or "turn in everything to the park office". Or "on sandy beaches only". Or .... "not within 20 ft. of a tree", blah blah And worse yet, you'll notice that many places with "permits " often-time simply revoke the entire system years later. Why ? Because it's perpetually "on-their-radar" as something they have to implement, pass out, monitor, etc.... Then sure as heck, one year, someone at their council meeting is gonna say : "Gee, do we really want all these yahoos out there digging up the park ?".
And revoke the entire thing.Thus it's MUCH better that it simply be silent on the subject. Not mentioned either way. Neither expressly "allowed" or "disallowed". To me, that's the most "fair enough" system
JohnnyPhoenix
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Tom: My approach is always to be unobtrusive and try to remain unseen, for the point you make of not drawing attention to one's activities, regardless of what they are. "It is far better to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission."
The renewed focus on the DNR's policies were in the wake of the copper culture incident. Without interjecting politics too much into this subject, many of the DNR's rules were reorganized when Scott Walker became governor to benefit large business interests at the cost of personal liberties. At that time, all the rules were being reviewed, and the DNR office in Madison was a lobbyist hellhole; I saw this first-hand. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't get into specifics.
My contact for clarification came when a weld on the rudder for my sailboat broke and sunk in a state park lake (the park will forever more be known as "Rudderstone Lake"). I needed to take my CZ-20 to the park to find it. Not wanting to break the law or anything, I went online to look up what the latest rules were. Upon reading the new regulations (that I had no idea were rewritten) I was like "WTH" and called more out of protest. So no, I wasn't part of the circle, I came to break the wheel.
Now not to get too technical, CA is a "If it's not specifically illegal, it's legal" state, whereas WI is a "If it's not specifically legal, it's illegal" state. This was explained to me more than 20 years ago and it helps to understand why some stuff in my state is makes little sense. Take our hunting regulations for instance. There are so many "It is unlawful to..." statements instead of simply spelling out what is legal. Take motorcycle lane-splitting in your state, it's not illegal for two vehicles to occupy the same lane of traffic, so it's allowed.
As for the Dane County permitting system, it was that or no detecting period. I believe it was the Four Lakes MD club in Madison that worked out that deal. And that it's free is unusual for Dane County! https://www.danecountyparks.com/documents/pdf/DaneCoParks-2020FeeSchedule.pdf
Janesville WI charged $10 for an annual fee 15 years ago, but I don't know what the current situation is.
I think the MD rules in Wisconsin for state properties unreasonable. I assure you, my delving into them some 4 years after they were implemented had no influence in their propagation.
Cliff notes version: MD clubs were close to getting public properties open to metal detecting again. Some dude starts selling copper culture artifacts on ebay. Tribal interests get involved, killing the bill. DNR rule review starts about the same time, so copper culture incident fresh in mind of rule writers, with Tribal lobbyist giving input. Wisconsin now home to some of the most restrictive rules on the books.
Now back to copper culture. I was speaking to a neighbor down the road last summer. I had mentioned that I metal detect as one of my hobbies and he asked "Will your detector detect copper?" "Yeeeeeeeeeesssss" I replied. He then told me his grandfather had found a copper arrowhead in a spring many years ago on their property, and he would show me the area. He thinks the arrowhead ended up at the Mineral Point Historical Society, but I haven't had the time to followup on this yet. He doesn't live in the area so catching him has been hit-or-miss. I saw him over the winter, but not since the snow and ice have dissipated. If I find anything eventually, I'll certainly post the details.
JP
The renewed focus on the DNR's policies were in the wake of the copper culture incident. Without interjecting politics too much into this subject, many of the DNR's rules were reorganized when Scott Walker became governor to benefit large business interests at the cost of personal liberties. At that time, all the rules were being reviewed, and the DNR office in Madison was a lobbyist hellhole; I saw this first-hand. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't get into specifics.
My contact for clarification came when a weld on the rudder for my sailboat broke and sunk in a state park lake (the park will forever more be known as "Rudderstone Lake"). I needed to take my CZ-20 to the park to find it. Not wanting to break the law or anything, I went online to look up what the latest rules were. Upon reading the new regulations (that I had no idea were rewritten) I was like "WTH" and called more out of protest. So no, I wasn't part of the circle, I came to break the wheel.
Now not to get too technical, CA is a "If it's not specifically illegal, it's legal" state, whereas WI is a "If it's not specifically legal, it's illegal" state. This was explained to me more than 20 years ago and it helps to understand why some stuff in my state is makes little sense. Take our hunting regulations for instance. There are so many "It is unlawful to..." statements instead of simply spelling out what is legal. Take motorcycle lane-splitting in your state, it's not illegal for two vehicles to occupy the same lane of traffic, so it's allowed.
As for the Dane County permitting system, it was that or no detecting period. I believe it was the Four Lakes MD club in Madison that worked out that deal. And that it's free is unusual for Dane County! https://www.danecountyparks.com/documents/pdf/DaneCoParks-2020FeeSchedule.pdf
Janesville WI charged $10 for an annual fee 15 years ago, but I don't know what the current situation is.
I think the MD rules in Wisconsin for state properties unreasonable. I assure you, my delving into them some 4 years after they were implemented had no influence in their propagation.
Cliff notes version: MD clubs were close to getting public properties open to metal detecting again. Some dude starts selling copper culture artifacts on ebay. Tribal interests get involved, killing the bill. DNR rule review starts about the same time, so copper culture incident fresh in mind of rule writers, with Tribal lobbyist giving input. Wisconsin now home to some of the most restrictive rules on the books.
Now back to copper culture. I was speaking to a neighbor down the road last summer. I had mentioned that I metal detect as one of my hobbies and he asked "Will your detector detect copper?" "Yeeeeeeeeeesssss" I replied. He then told me his grandfather had found a copper arrowhead in a spring many years ago on their property, and he would show me the area. He thinks the arrowhead ended up at the Mineral Point Historical Society, but I haven't had the time to followup on this yet. He doesn't live in the area so catching him has been hit-or-miss. I saw him over the winter, but not since the snow and ice have dissipated. If I find anything eventually, I'll certainly post the details.
JP
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Tom_in_CA
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This statement merely assumes something was "wrong" thus "needed forgiveness" in the first place. But If there was no law on the subject , (ie.: silent-on-the-subject prior to someone swatting hornet's nests), then presto: No need to "ask forgiveness" for anything.
Why ? What put it on their plate to know (and get their panties in a wad) about this ? Who alerted them to the (gasp) copper item found ?
Ok, sure. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that someone before you went in , seeking permissions or "yes's", and got this ball rolling. I would also add that if you had merely taken your cz-20 to find your boat part, I highly doubt that you would have been in violation of the law. You were there to find your boat part, not (gasp) copper culture stuff. But sure .... if you ASK "does this apply to me to ?", then sure: You will get the "safe answer". And more rank-&-file to "B.O.L", the more-it-gets-on-their-plate as an evil they must fight-against.
Huh ? Where are you getting this from ? Got a link ? And to use an example: Can you show me a law or rule that says it's "legal" to throw frisbees or skip stones on the pond. And if you *can't* show me express allowances for those activities, are we to therefore assume that it's illegal to throw frisbees and skip stones in WI ?
And I've got a sneaking suspicion of how that came-to-be.
JohnnyPhoenix
Full Member
"You don't know what you can get away with until you try."
You know the expression "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission?" Well, it's true. Good leaders don't wait for official blessing to try things out. They're prudent, not reckless. But they also realize a fact of life in most organizations: If you ask enough people for permission, you'll inevitably come up against someone who believes his job is to say "no." So the moral is, don't ask. I'm serious. In my own research with colleague Linda Mukai, we found that less effective middle managers endorsed the sentiment, "If I haven't explicitly been told 'yes,' I can't do it," whereas the good ones believed "If I haven't explicitly been told 'no,' I can." There's a world of difference between these two points of view.
~ General Colin Powell
Second: https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/parks/rules/metaldetect.html
Third, the legal discussion was part of an arson investigation class some 20 years ago and is not worth my time to find my class notes if I even have them still. We also in that class discussed why the Subaru Brat was pulled from the market: hint, it wasn’t the open seats in the back.
Forth: For the history surrounding the Dane County permit situation, contact the Four Lakes MD Club. I wasn’t involved, I just know that is the system in use and I don’t view metal detecting as form of civil disobedience. It’s a hobby, not worth going to jail over it.
And finally back to copper culture. If you want the Native American perspective contact the Ho-Chunk Nation HQ’d in Black River Falls, WI for their views on artifacts and cultural sites in Wisconsin and beyond.
So Tom, I guess I’m finding it difficult to understand your perspective. Upon seeing the copper culture post, it reminded me of some things I learned a number of years ago. You seem to think it’s all our (mine?) fault out here for regulation. I’ve lived in NV and CA and from a regulatory standpoint, aside from guns, you guys have it easy. Most of the property around my area is private and posted, which means you need specific permission to occupy it. On BLM land, you can go almost anywhere and do anything you please, trust me we did! Wandering onto any property down here to metal detecting, public or private, is akin to speeding down a road and telling the arresting officer that you didn’t know the speed limit.
As for calling a public entity, I just investigate on-line because I don’t want anybody knowing what I’m up to.
Peace
JP
You know the expression "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission?" Well, it's true. Good leaders don't wait for official blessing to try things out. They're prudent, not reckless. But they also realize a fact of life in most organizations: If you ask enough people for permission, you'll inevitably come up against someone who believes his job is to say "no." So the moral is, don't ask. I'm serious. In my own research with colleague Linda Mukai, we found that less effective middle managers endorsed the sentiment, "If I haven't explicitly been told 'yes,' I can't do it," whereas the good ones believed "If I haven't explicitly been told 'no,' I can." There's a world of difference between these two points of view.
~ General Colin Powell
Second: https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/parks/rules/metaldetect.html
Third, the legal discussion was part of an arson investigation class some 20 years ago and is not worth my time to find my class notes if I even have them still. We also in that class discussed why the Subaru Brat was pulled from the market: hint, it wasn’t the open seats in the back.
Forth: For the history surrounding the Dane County permit situation, contact the Four Lakes MD Club. I wasn’t involved, I just know that is the system in use and I don’t view metal detecting as form of civil disobedience. It’s a hobby, not worth going to jail over it.
And finally back to copper culture. If you want the Native American perspective contact the Ho-Chunk Nation HQ’d in Black River Falls, WI for their views on artifacts and cultural sites in Wisconsin and beyond.
So Tom, I guess I’m finding it difficult to understand your perspective. Upon seeing the copper culture post, it reminded me of some things I learned a number of years ago. You seem to think it’s all our (mine?) fault out here for regulation. I’ve lived in NV and CA and from a regulatory standpoint, aside from guns, you guys have it easy. Most of the property around my area is private and posted, which means you need specific permission to occupy it. On BLM land, you can go almost anywhere and do anything you please, trust me we did! Wandering onto any property down here to metal detecting, public or private, is akin to speeding down a road and telling the arresting officer that you didn’t know the speed limit.
As for calling a public entity, I just investigate on-line because I don’t want anybody knowing what I’m up to.
Peace
JP
Tom_in_CA
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And I have a suspicion that if people in your area, 20 and 30 yrs. ago had taken-that-advice, you guys wouldn't be in the current predicament. Ie.: If there's no rule or law saying "no md'ing", then presto, it's not prohibited. No need for an express or explicit "yes" or "permission".
As for the rest of your post, you give a link to the park's rule. But it doesn't say the starting genesis of the "why" (how it started).
So for the "genesis", you give me two different entities to contact. But I can already save us both some time, and tell you where that would go : The parks or club people would say "because of holes", and the Indian people would say "because of cultural heritage". Right ? And in each case we md'rs would mutter under our breath : "Durned those people who must've left holes", and "durned those archies". Right ?
But those are just the "go to" answers, to justify the laws they invented. For example, in the case of park's people saying "No because of holes", I'm not convinced there was necessarily ever cases of anyone who ever left holes. Instead, it's just the knee-jerk image connotation of a "man with a metal detector". So the MUCH BIGGER QUESTION is : How did it get on those Indians and park's people radar .... IN THE FIRST PLACE, as something they needed to apply their "go-to" answer to. And I have a sneaking suspicion. Care to take a guess ?
JohnnyPhoenix
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I’ve never been in disagreement I’d how we got here; I can’t account for behavior of predecessors in the past, only my own. But yes, there are few regulations I am aware of that originated with some bureaucrats sitting around wondering how to stick it to the people. Some connected person saw some guy digging a hole and it was “OMG!!!” As far as metal detecting is concerned, I still here rumors of guys sneaking onto state property to detect, which only amplifies the call to ban it. In the past, metal detecting was allowed in a park with the park supervisor’s approval, so it’s not too far fetched to imagine the copper incident was a ready-made solution to a perceived problem; it was simply the final justification.
It’s like any right or privilege, most people quietly go about their business, but a few have to “throw it in your face” which of draws more attention, and there goes the neighborhood.
I mostly hunt private property because arguing with public entities just isn’t worth my time. Most of the towns in my area are not regulated so I occasionally hit a park or fairground, but if I went frequently I’m sure some bored person would think I’m making a killing with metal detecting and want it put to a stop. Also, I live in a rural area so I’m not affiliated with and MD club, so the information I have was conveyed to me by club member's a few years ago.
So anyway, the MD club is related to the Dane County regs, and the Ho-Chunk to the cultural artifacts. The two are sort of entwined because the MD club was, in part, instrumental in the formation of the proposed legislation. The Ho-Chunk are a powerful lobby in the state and I’m told learned of the bill and worked to kill it, in part, because of copper culture. All this happened at the same time regulations were being reviewed, so it was almost a perfect storm. Now how the three events influenced each other I can’t say because I wasn’t in the room where all this transpired. But as you have already surmised, it’s somewhat telling that one event empowered another.
It’s like any right or privilege, most people quietly go about their business, but a few have to “throw it in your face” which of draws more attention, and there goes the neighborhood.
I mostly hunt private property because arguing with public entities just isn’t worth my time. Most of the towns in my area are not regulated so I occasionally hit a park or fairground, but if I went frequently I’m sure some bored person would think I’m making a killing with metal detecting and want it put to a stop. Also, I live in a rural area so I’m not affiliated with and MD club, so the information I have was conveyed to me by club member's a few years ago.
So anyway, the MD club is related to the Dane County regs, and the Ho-Chunk to the cultural artifacts. The two are sort of entwined because the MD club was, in part, instrumental in the formation of the proposed legislation. The Ho-Chunk are a powerful lobby in the state and I’m told learned of the bill and worked to kill it, in part, because of copper culture. All this happened at the same time regulations were being reviewed, so it was almost a perfect storm. Now how the three events influenced each other I can’t say because I wasn’t in the room where all this transpired. But as you have already surmised, it’s somewhat telling that one event empowered another.
JohnnyPhoenix
Full Member
Addendum https://dnr.wi.gov/files/PDF/pubs/wa/WA1504.pdf
The third paragraph suggests a metal detector is okay for finding minerals and gold, but I would be very careful using that as justification to detect. Have not found anything that supersedes this memo, but I’m looking.
The third paragraph suggests a metal detector is okay for finding minerals and gold, but I would be very careful using that as justification to detect. Have not found anything that supersedes this memo, but I’m looking.
Tom_in_CA
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You got me curious, so I went to the FMDAC's state-by-state list, to look up WI. Because quite often, some of the states on this list will say something like "With permission" or "with a permit". But when you look deeper into it (their supporting footnotes that lead to their actual rules/laws), you find NO SUCH THING.
So in other words, it's just commentary, not actual rule. And you know how this list from the FMDAC evolved don't you ?? It's traced back to the VERY ORIGINS (of "swatting hornet's nests") that I speak of. That eventually led to wonderful lists like this.
Here's the WI page : http://www.fmdac.org/wisconsin-state-regulations.html
It started in the early (or mid ?) 1980s. When a fellow named Doc R. Grim wrote a book called "Treasure laws of the United States". He attempted to create an alphabetic listing, of all 50 states, detailing their state's park's laws/rules, regarding the use of detectors in their state parks. So that that way: RV travelers, that go state to state, can have an immediate reference.
Great idea, eh ? Who can argue with that, eh ? Save you the embarrassment of breaking a law. Or conversely give you peace of mind to know that it was allowed in other states parks you were passing through. And you could show any busy-body, who attempted to hassle you, the "yes" straight from their state capitol head honcho. Brilliant Idea, right ?
And guess the method that the author used to get his information (back in the era before the internet) ? Drum-roll: Easy, he asked. Yup, he merely xeroxed off 50 letters, and sent them to the head office P.R. person, in each state capitol's head-of-parks. The letter was to the effect of : "I am writing a book detailing the laws/rules, regarding the use of metal detectors in all the 50 state's state parks. Can you please tell me what, if any rules, govern the use of detectors in your state parks."
And then he just sat back and waited for 50 replies to fill his post box. Brilliant idea right ? Can't argue with an answer "straight from the dept. themselves", right ?
But when the book came out, you had a lot of old-timers scratching their heads saying "since when ?". And some of the answers coming back incoherent like "with permission at each kiosk" (yet when you went to check on the source/citation, that was nowhere to be found). And perhaps they'd point you to something about "disturbing wildlife" or "lost and found" laws, blah blah. At places that, quite frankly, had never been an issue before.
And the current FMDAC list is merely a continuation of that starting genesis kernal. And sure, perhaps by now (35+ yrs. later), it's now being codified and 'made official' in some states like yours. Moral of the story ? LET'S ALL STOP SWATTING HORNET'S NESTS.
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