Enforcement of Metal Detecting Laws in National Parks, Legal or Illegal?

OleSarge

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This advisory appears in the introduction of a National Park Battlefield to prospective visitors: Helping us preserve history helps preserve history for everyone. If you see someone relic hunting, metal detecting or finding and removing artifacts, please do not approach them. Notify the visitor center immediately at 770-427-4686 ext. 0. A federal law enforcement officer will investigate further.
And this instruction regarding disposition and prosecution of offending Metal Detectorists is given to those same visitors. Keep in mind that among these detectorists are Natural Born American Citizens, Veterans who have shed blood for the country, and Mothers of War Fighters who have given their loved ones to defend the freedom of ALL Americans: Please keep in mind that acts against the Battlefield are felony crimes. Per 18 United States Code 1361: Destruction of Government Property; 18 United States Code 641: Theft of Government Property/degradation; 18 United States Code 2: Aiding and abetting; 18 United States Code 371: Conspiracy to defraud the United States.
More and more land is being absorbed by the U.S. Government and placed out of bounds to the Metal Detector Hobbyist. This land and these parks were set aside for use of all Americans, Metal Detectorists included. Yet, not only is it stated in law that metal detecting is not allowed in National Parks, it clearly states that POSSESSION of metal detecting equipment is illegal and will be confiscated by National Park Service personnel and the person possessing the equipment can legally be expelled and permenantly barrred from reentry to the park. Knowlege of laws and the hobby is a way to slow down the loss of respect for the metal detecting hobbyist and loss of their rights to access public lands. This link http://www.mdhtalk.org/ is a good start for anyone interested in pursuit of further knowlege but it is not the answer to whether or not our government has overstepped their bounds by criminalizing metal detecting in the same areas which annual animal kills are scheduled and ATV/Snowmobile access is allowed every winter. Your Thoughts;

AT Pro/Garrett Pro Pointer/Fiskars Diggers/Bounty Hunter Outback/HF Pin Pointer

Caressing Mother Earth in such a way she happily gives up her treasures
 
What about respecting the people that lost their lives on those battlefields? National forests and parks, usually do have places designated for use, by many hobbies, and recreations, even hunting sometimes. We use to get most of our firewood from the Mt Hood National Forest, in Oregon. Just had to stop and get a permit, and direction to the area they want to clear the deadfall trees from. They aren't really evil people running these places, just trying to preserve them. Metal detecting is all about digging holes, and grabbing the treasure, to take home, and sell on Ebay.

Have you asked if the park issues permits to hunt in designated areas? Has anyone requested that such areas be opened to limited use, for metal detecting? There is a lot of stuff you can't to on government land, but you can obtain a permit for, which limits how long you have, and what areas you are allowed, and some specifics about what you can and can't do. The firewood permit was one day, haul off as much as you wanted. Could cut down live trees, and had to work in the areas designated for that day.
 
The 28th amendment, the right to keep, bear and use metal detectors!;)
 
What about respecting the people that lost their lives on those battlefields? National forests and parks, usually do have places designated for use, by many hobbies, and recreations, even hunting sometimes. We use to get most of our firewood from the Mt Hood National Forest, in Oregon. Just had to stop and get a permit, and direction to the area they want to clear the deadfall trees from. They aren't really evil people running these places, just trying to preserve them. Metal detecting is all about digging holes, and grabbing the treasure, to take home, and sell on Ebay.

Have you asked if the park issues permits to hunt in designated areas? Has anyone requested that such areas be opened to limited use, for metal detecting? There is a lot of stuff you can't to on government land, but you can obtain a permit for, which limits how long you have, and what areas you are allowed, and some specifics about what you can and can't do. The firewood permit was one day, haul off as much as you wanted. Could cut down live trees, and had to work in the areas designated for that day.

+1

There are so many other places to hunt. Do we really need to argue about digging in known historical battle areas? Have you ever lost a friend in battle? Do you want someone digging up something you missed trying to get everything back to their family? Some things, in my opinion, should just be left alone.

I ran into a guy at a bank running his change through the counter and I started a conversation with him. He was CRHing and detected also. He seemed cool UNTIL he told me that he didn't have a problem detecting in grave yards because he ..."knows they aren't there anymore"...!!!??:mad:

Simple...some places shouldn't be touched!

Of all the land we CAN hunt.....:?:
 
I can understand your frustration. I too have felt this frustration myself. There is an area of 80,000 acres, starting within twenty minutes from my house, that is completely off limits. It is under the authority of the National Parks Service, which means ZERO metal detecting.

Here is the killer, There are literally scores of 19th Century home sites, at least two town sites, multiple mill sites, known Indian villages, Civil War skirmish sites, at least a dozen old school sites and more. With a very few minor areas (think campgrounds and stores) developed for tourists, the rest is all dense Ozarks forests and river frontage. There will never be an archaeological survey done, nor will the land be used for anything other than "recreational" purposes, but that doesn't make a difference.

Land being off limits to treasure hunters and relic hunters is nothing new. It dates back to at least 1906 (by Federal Law) and back to the end of the 19th century "locally".

With over a century of Federal Law protecting numerous sites on Federal land, plus the reputation that a few looters give us all, I don't ever see a change in the law in favor of the hobbyists.

Now the bright side - I have access to over 1.4 million acres of National Forest that is open to recrational metal detecting (provided I stay off of, and report any historical sites that I find). I can coinshoot, hit the swimming holes, the deer camps, mineral hunting and more. I am restricted by not being allowed to hunt home and town sites (which there are numerous) Civil War sites or other sites protected by the ARPA, but with 1.4 million acres, just think of how many million shotshell heads there has to be...:cool:

Don't get frustrated by the sites and land you cannot hunt, but look for and make opportunities for yourself for land that you can hunt.

Doug
 
If you go by the assumption that you should not dig here due to someone dying here the you should stop hunting all together. Someone at some time has died on about 98% of US soil. Be it a native American or a settler. Someone shed blood just about everywhere. Battle fields end up being developed and destroyed. I for one know of 2 in my town that have been built on. 1 by the city the other is private. And as for selling my finds on eBay well that will not happen.
 
Not NO , but H@&& No !

Thousands died right there.Thousands of young men laid there after the battle defending their country. Defending our country. Bleeding to death slowly knowing this was their last day on earth and they at age 18 , 19 or 20 something knowing they would never see their parents , never seeing their brothers and sisters. The least we can do is consider it sacred ground regardless who controls the property. Ive hunted along Shiloh's Park Boundry. Ive had the Park Ranger stand right there in front of me while I hunted legally with permission from a land owner. I was much younger then. I would never risk hunting so close to a park boundary now that I'm older and it's a respect thing for those whose died on those hallowed and sacred battle grounds . I go into Chickamauga Nat. Park often. Ive stood on Snodgrass Hill in the quietness of the day alone and looked over the brow of the hill and tried to imagine what it was like. You can't. I drifted off.What was the question ?
 
It is our land really not theirs..

Just like when their inefficient butts had to stop working and "shut the government off" for a while.. They wanted to close national parks.. Not really theirs to close IMO... We all stole this land fair and square, now how are they really suggesting even closing any place?

They sure do have a lot of power for having no legs to stand on IMO...

All you can do is blame the sheeple in this big ole herd that lives and breaths on stolen land they call the U.S.A...

This topic is really so huge (MD is just a fraction of a hundredth of a percent) , I can't even get into it on this forum....

<*)))>{
 
I fully support preserving some of our land in it's mostly natural state, and don't think letting folks in to dig around is such a great idea. I think most people would be too extreme or greedy about metal detecting there, unless someone found some really good stuff, or Ebay sales did very well... Some laws are unfortunate, but there are too many that throw commonsense and decency aside, for free money and profit. I've never been into the big city lifestyle, where most everything is paved over and built on, every few areas left natural, except a few lots that have been cleared, and overgrown with weeds. The green areas, aren't really natural, but carefully planned, landscaped, and maintained to look a specific way. I can understand that people who have never know any different, could possibly appreciate untouched land. I grew up on the side of a mountain, small town, and could walk through forests all day, and see few, if any sign, that anybody had ever been there before, or in a very long time.

The protected sites, are those of the major battles. There were many sites, where fighting took places, seldom written about. They traveled mostly on foot, and by horse, set up camp almost daily. The vast majority of these sites aren't protected. Do some research, don't be lazy and want the famous places. Some people can stay respectful, and hunt, but there are too many that wouldn't want to miss a single thing, and to open up those protect sites, would draw most of them there, by the hundreds.
 
This was started over a "NP Battlefield"...I can understand why they do not allow MDing and do allow snow machines and hunters...MDing implies digging up stuff no matter how deep...The others do nothing but disturb the surface....

Now regular NP's (Non Battlefields) should allow MDing.

I agree with the post above about seeking a permit or getting an understanding with the powers that be...Maybe show them what you do, offer to give them any "War Artifacts" and you keep coins and stuff.

Jim
 
Thousands died right there.Thousands of young men laid there after the battle defending their country. Defending our country. Bleeding to death slowly knowing this was their last day on earth and they at age 18 , 19 or 20 something knowing they would never see their parents , never seeing their brothers and sisters. The least we can do is consider it sacred ground regardless who controls the property. Ive hunted along Shiloh's Park Boundry. Ive had the Park Ranger stand right there in front of me while I hunted legally with permission from a land owner. I was much younger then. I would never risk hunting so close to a park boundary now that I'm older and it's a respect thing for those whose died on those hallowed and sacred battle grounds . I go into Chickamauga Nat. Park often. Ive stood on Snodgrass Hill in the quietness of the day alone and looked over the brow of the hill and tried to imagine what it was like. You can't. I drifted off.What was the question ?

Enforcement of metal detecting laws in National Parks, legal or illegal? And the point was that the Federal Government has identified and set aside a certain amount of land as preserves for the American citizen in gratitude to those who fought and died for the country. Yet, not only is it illegal to even possess a metal detector in a National Park, it will be treated as a felony and your metal detector will be confiscated. I am a retired Army Sergeant with 21 plus years in a combat arms (armor) military occupational specialty. There is no need to convince me that the place a war fighter fought and/or died should be respected. But my concern is not with metal detectors in Gettysburg or even Dealy Plaza. I, along with millions of other like me have served in the forces which empowers the government to possess and cordon off these millions of acres of citizen owned property, and metal detecting is my chosen hobby. Your attitude is that our mistake was NOT slowly bleeding to death rather than expecting some return for our service in spite of the fact we didn't die. Yes, I feel some entitlement to access and use this property for whatever purpose the citizens deem appropriate, metal detecting included. While I would have absolutely no qualms about metal detecting a civil war battle field because I've slept on Bloody Ridge, Pork Chop Hill and Na Trang, I totally respect the fact it's illegal and will refrain from doing so. So, what's my beef...It's the fact that during the fall months over half the campsites in the Olympic National Park campgrounds are vacant. Thousands of acres of lake front beaches are vacant and no campers/swimmers are in sight for as far as one can see. But, it is still a felony if I even take my metal detector out of the camper, and God forbid, should I put a coil to the frozen beach. Suggestion of getting a digging permit to dig in a Washington State National Park is laughable. Our Game Wardens carry side arms and have the same arrest authority as any other law enforcement official. It's best not to call their attention to yourself in any manner, metal detecting or shooting a elk out of season, because their reaction is unpredictable. And, regardless of whether you get shot over a pissy fit about having a metal detector or illegally bagging a 1200 pound elk, shot is still shot, and both are equally dead. Just my opinion. I think the laws need a relook and discrimination against MDers in National Parks should rejoin the real world. Probably the worse enemies of a metal detector hobbyist are the archeologists out to preserve history even at the expense of having it rot in the ground and the liberal historian who takes it personally that your hard earned finds may document history better than their easily earned slothfulness wishes to change it.

AT Pro/Garrett Pro Pointer/Fiskars Diggers/Bounty Hunter Outback/HF Pin Pointer
 
This was started over a "NP Battlefield"...I can understand why they do not allow MDing and do allow snow machines and hunters...MDing implies digging up stuff no matter how deep...The others do nothing but disturb the surface....

Now regular NP's (Non Battlefields) should allow MDing.

I agree with the post above about seeking a permit or getting an understanding with the powers that be...Maybe show them what you do, offer to give them any "War Artifacts" and you keep coins and stuff.

Jim

This was started with the question of "Should it be illegal for the National Park Service to enforce metal detecting regulations in ALL National Parks. Somebody added the aspect of disturbing the battle fields rather than the campsites. I agree on the Non Battlefield NP's allowing MDing in otherwise public accessable areas. But, expecting the Federal Government to follow the lead of our State Parks and posting MD allowed areas in their parks:realitycheck:Ha Ha. Permits in Washington State National Parks...:iwish:
 
I have a problem with some people being able to use the parks for recreation that they enjoy but not for others. My example is from a visit to San Juan Sate park. Saw no signs and was detecting camping areas when a ranger came up and informed me of a no MD law at that park. He said it was an old Indian site, not a burial ground but native American anyways. He said I could MD but I could not disturb the ground in anyway. I asked......"you mean like driving tent stakes in the ground?" As I nodded towards a huge tent. I understand the importance of people not going into a place like that and destroying things but at the same time, the things they say they are trying to protect are not being protected IMHO. There are artifacts there? Great! Lets get em outta the ground so people can enjoy them and learn from them instead of leaving them there to rot. I'm going to try to get some "supervised" hunts going in some of these off limits places but I cant seem to get ahold of Obama for permission. :roll: :lol:
 
A few people enjoying the hobby on those sites, probably wouldn't do much harm. Unfortunately, there is this thing called Greed, which would leave a huge mess. Tent stakes are minimal impact, you stick them in the ground, camp a few days or a week, pull them back up, just a small hole. Metal Detecting, it's understood, that there is going to be digging involved. Each target located, a potential new hole. And how many holes can we expect from just one person hunting, per day? Fill the in nice, no one will know? Sure, but we still cut through the roots of plants and trees. Then there are those more focused on getting rich, then following rules, or cleaning up after themselves. Really hard to preserve an area, if you are going to allow people to come in and dig it up. The designatate recreation areas, like the campsites, should also allow detecting, since these aren't usually 'preserved' areas. There are paved roads, buildings, facilities to accomodate the guests. Calling it camping is stretching it, hot and cold water, electricity...

Think most people hunt by themselves, or a very small group of friends, and they don't really see the impacted hundreds, or thousands of people, detecting an area would easily have. Most can show care, and be respectful, but there are way too many, who wouldn't waste a second of their vacation, filling holes. Just get as much as they can, before have to pack it all up for next year. I'm sure the rules were created, specifically, because there was once a problem, that need attention. It wasn't because people discriminate against our hobby, it's because some people were greedy, and were making a mess.

There is so much land around, open to metal detecting. I really can't imagine it being so important to dig on restricted land. How man artifacts do you really need for your personal collection, that you can't get anywhere else? Most of the stuff is pretty common, wouldn't it make all that stuff, basically worthless, and less interesting, if a huge surplus became availiable, by opening up these sites? No longer special, and of little or no value, how much of this stuff is going to get scrapped, or sent to the landfills, to be buried again?
 
This was started with the question of "Should it be illegal for the National Park Service to enforce metal detecting regulations in ALL National Parks. Somebody added the aspect of disturbing the battle fields rather than the campsites. I agree on the Non Battlefield NP's allowing MDing in otherwise public accessable areas. But, expecting the Federal Government to follow the lead of our State Parks and posting MD allowed areas in their parks:realitycheck:Ha Ha. Permits in Washington State National Parks...:iwish:

I was going off this in your post: This advisory appears in the introduction of a National Park Battlefield to prospective visitors: Helping us preserve history helps preserve history for everyone. If you see someone relic hunting, metal detecting or finding and removing artifacts, please do not approach them. Notify the visitor center immediately at 770-427-4686 ext. 0. A federal law enforcement officer will investigate further.

Jim
 
NP Fields

There parks for a reason. If they allow digging at gettysburg for example, Imagine all the bad detectorist showing up with the reputable ones. They would detroy places by leaving holes, destroying property and monuments.Yes we have to suffer for the bad ones.I'm for keeping the parks off limits.The majority of detectorist ;i'm sure would obey the rules, but the few who don't would ruin it for all. Even in hunting the parks were i live you have to register, take a proficinsy test with hunting weapons. This helps keep out the slob hunters.My 2 cents.
 
Sorry Sleepyjim. I was overly broad in my use of graphic aids. I watch Pawn Stars and American Pickers too. I also watch American Savage Diggers, Diggers, Gone in Seconds and Myth Busters so I know what destruction and greed our culture is capable of. Not knowing your military back ground, I'm not sure what inspired your level of interest in preserving sites like Gettysburg or any other battlefield. My soldiers (1962-1983) were as real as those of Custers 7th Calvary or those who followed Sherman, Pershing or Eisenhower, and their deaths in Vietnam, Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan should be no less memorable. However, the sites where my soldiers fought and died is now densely populated cities, heavily travelled freeways and orchards...Sanctioned and praised as progress by the same government which says I can't metal detect for nails in the parking lot of a national forest. We trained on the same grounds fought over by Patton in Germany's WWII, and a hundred tanks does a lot of damage to a sacred killing fields..but no body cried or wrote a policy stopping us. I am not suggesting we violate the burial sites of our fallen warriors of any era...I'm simply saying the ground we fought to preserve as a American legacy should be returned to the American people exactly as Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Korea, Iraq and on-and-on traditionally, and mandatorily has. Relaxing laws which may require me to post a bond, register my metal detector, define digging areas or even holding my drivers license hostage would be a good start.
 
In the Philadelphia area the entire Fairmount Park system is off limits to metal detecting simply because an archeologist didn't approve of it. Basically all open public land in the city is owned by them, even the grass medians on roadways which pretty much outlaws metal detecting on any public land in the city. There is countless crime in the parks, bodies found all the time, but god forbid someone detects it.
 
Sorry Sleepyjim. I was overly broad in my use of graphic aids. I watch Pawn Stars and American Pickers too. I also watch American Savage Diggers, Diggers, Gone in Seconds and Myth Busters so I know what destruction and greed our culture is capable of. Not knowing your military back ground, I'm not sure what inspired your level of interest in preserving sites like Gettysburg or any other battlefield. My soldiers (1962-1983) were as real as those of Custers 7th Calvary or those who followed Sherman, Pershing or Eisenhower, and their deaths in Vietnam, Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan should be no less memorable. However, the sites where my soldiers fought and died is now densely populated cities, heavily travelled freeways and orchards...Sanctioned and praised as progress by the same government which says I can't metal detect for nails in the parking lot of a national forest. We trained on the same grounds fought over by Patton in Germany's WWII, and a hundred tanks does a lot of damage to a sacred killing fields..but no body cried or wrote a policy stopping us. I am not suggesting we violate the burial sites of our fallen warriors of any era...I'm simply saying the ground we fought to preserve as a American legacy should be returned to the American people exactly as Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Korea, Iraq and on-and-on traditionally, and mandatorily has. Relaxing laws which may require me to post a bond, register my metal detector, define digging areas or even holding my drivers license hostage would be a good start.


Agree to a point, that point is no matter how much we try, we have idiots in our hobby or who think they are....Maybe a permit system would work.....I too am a combat vet and was not thinking that way at all, I was more the my grandkids should see these sites and learn from them and if we have a free for all thing go, we will destroy the places, I off road and explore around and see tons of trash, destruction and abuse all over, that was my thinking, a battlefield can teach youngins and maybe prevent such a thing in the future....Weird I know.....LOL

Jim
 
I do not agree with allowing mders in national parks. They are meant to be preserved in their native state. And for those of you saying what damage could a few holes cause, lets get real about what would happen if, say, Yosemite was opened up to mding. Yosemite was not built yesterday, it has been there for almost 150 years, meaning there are coins and relics going back to then. Imagine how many mders would want to md Yosemite, including the wannabes that don't know how to dig or fill a hole. The idea that "Oh, not that much damage will be done by a FEW mders" is moronic.
 
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