Myers Depot Metal Detectors

Local, state , and federal permission

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nexon1

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May 28, 2015
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As a new MD hobbyist, where is the best starting place when determine MD laws for the different levels of Government property, including local, state, and federal lands?
Any websites available dedicated to the subject? As I understand it, most federal parks (ie battlefields) are strictly off limits. That's about all I know. Any help is appreciated.


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The only semi-authoritative information you're going to get, is at state park levels (which has had a few compendiums drawn up over the years listing the 50 states), and the federal parks level. You won't find anything authoritative down to the county and city parks/lands levels. Because obviously, there's just TOO many counties and cities for anyone to understake such a venture.

And notice I say, re. the state and federal level, that the information you can find is "semi" authoritative. That's because even THEN some ... uh ... reading between the lines is needed. For example, not all federal land is federal (or national) "PARK" land. BLM & NFS are ok, for instance.

Certain states on the compendium might have dire sounding things. Yet when you look closely, it's actually pertaining to old stuff. (ok, how good is your math ? :roll:) . And not all state land is state PARK land. And other's yet is dubious *just* how dire they are.

Because often time when list like that got rolled out decades ago, long-timers in those state were left scratching their heads saying to themselves "since when?". So you can see that the "pressing question" (from whosever compiling the listings) gets passed desk to desk till finally someone gives it a "safe" answer of "no" (citing something about harming earthworms or whatever), when, in fact, detecting was, and is, common place. Or perhaps beaches have historically been exempted (so ... realistically ... you just avoid obvious historic sensitive landmarks, and that seems to be the gist of it). But you can read for yourself, and see if it's actually based in some specific law, versus someone morphing something else they "think" applies.
 
There is one website which has listed various cities and counties within various states. Apparently info submitted by readers and compiled by the website person. But it is very cryptic indeed. Very few cities or counties ever dreamed up any such "no detecting" rules for their parks.

But in a few cases on that website, some actual ones are cited, with actual chapter & verse. But also, humorously, others are nothing more that someone submitting their "answer" that someone from city hall gave them, which might be nothing more than the old "no one cared UNTIL you asked" psychology.

So if you're skittish at the city and county level, here's what you do: You look it up for yourself. Don't ask someone "can I metal detect?". Instead, you look up rules/laws for yourself. If you see nothing saying "no metal detectors", then presto, it's not prohibited.
 
Tom_in_CA said:
So if you're skittish at the city and county level, here's what you do: You look it up for yourself. Don't ask someone "can I metal detect?". Instead, you look up rules/laws for yourself. If you see nothing saying "no metal detectors", then presto, it's not prohibited.
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If only things were so simple, so black-and-white. You will find that many places have catch-all phrases such as "no digging", "no disturbing", "no removing objects", etc. Some places apply this to metal detecting, others don't. I would advise just asking local authorities before digging in cases where you detecting (and digging) could easily be interpreted as illegal. Then you'll get your 'yes' or your 'no' and either way you can go about your business without looking over your shoulder. Contrary to what Tom is telling you, just because it doesn't explicitly say "NO METAL DETECTING" doesn't necessarily mean (presto!) it's legal. In the same way a "Do not enter the water" law would obviously cover swimming without mentioning it specifically (unless you've been given the go-ahead by local authority despite such wording).

Of course if you're looking up the laws for yourself and it says detecting is allowed or makes no mention of digging, removing, disturbing, etc. then I'd just go for it! :yes:
 
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stewart73 said:
... You will find that many places have catch-all phrases such as "no digging", "no disturbing", "no removing objects", etc. ....:
Click to expand...

Many? MANY ? Try "all". There's not a speck of public land out there with something forbidding altering, disturbing, taking, removing, etc.....

stewart73 said:
.... Some places apply this to metal detecting, others don't. ..
Click to expand...

Well, technically, how can it NOT apply to detecting? You and I "disturb" the ground, right? We "remove/take" things, right ?

stewart73 said:
... I would advise just asking local authorities before digging in cases where you detecting (and digging) could easily be interpreted as illegal. Then you'll get your 'yes' or your 'no'....
Click to expand...

Sure, you could do that. But then you'd run-the-risk of the "no one cared *till* you asked" routine. Ie.: the safe answer from a pencil pusher, when in fact detecting was/is common place there, and no one ever had an issue before.
 
The Code of Ethics, only requires you to know your local laws, doesn't say you have to follow them. You only need to know whether or not you can afford the fines, or bail, if you want to press the tolerance issue that far... <sarcasm/bad advice>

Asking if detecting and recover is allowed, lets the local authority know you a responsible, and want to do the right thing, above personal enrichment. It lets them know that decent, honest people metal detect too. Not just those sneaky nighthawks, who climb fences, and leave huge gaping holes in the sports fields... Isn't better they hear about the hobby from ethical hunters, or hear about from complaints? You can sneak around all you want, but eventually it catches up to you. You don't have to avoid being seen, if you aren't doing anything wrong.
 
stewart73 said:
If only things were so simple, so black-and-white. You will find that many places have catch-all phrases such as "no digging", "no disturbing", "no removing objects", etc. Some places apply this to metal detecting, others don't. I would advise just asking local authorities before digging in cases where you detecting (and digging) could easily be interpreted as illegal. Then you'll get your 'yes' or your 'no' and either way you can go about your business without looking over your shoulder. Contrary to what Tom is telling you, just because it doesn't explicitly say "NO METAL DETECTING" doesn't necessarily mean (presto!) it's legal. In the same way a "Do not enter the water" law would obviously cover swimming without mentioning it specifically (unless you've been given the go-ahead by local authority despite such wording).

Of course if you're looking up the laws for yourself and it says detecting is allowed or makes no mention of digging, removing, disturbing, etc. then I'd just go for it! :yes:
Click to expand...

HI stew,
The United States is a nation of laws. And laws must be written...you know, IN BLACK AND WHITE. Since you clearly do not understand how the legal system works in the US, I'll try to be brief: IF IT'S NOT ILLEGAL...IT'S LEGAL. And conversely: IF IT LEGAL...IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.:thinking: To help you understand think of it this way: IF IT'S BLACK...IT'S NOT WHITE, IF IT'S WHITE...IT'S NOT BLACK.

As far as getting a 'yes or no by asking', I'd personally look over my shoulder if I got a YES, IT"S OK TO DIG when the law says 'NO DIGGING'. And BTW, TOM is right when he say's 'it's ok to MD when MDing is not specifically banned. You are confusing MDing with destruction of public property, or digging where digging is banned, or recovery of personal property where it is banned. I know, it's convenient to confuse the different actions in support of your agenda.

I don't believe you will find any laws that specifically allow MDing on public lands. You see, MDing is allowed on public lands unless it's NOT ALLOWED by law. This is why permission on public lands is not necessary and you might refer to the Code of Ethics posted here on this forum if you doubt this. Seems simple and straightforward to me. You might find some posted rules which might say MDing allowed, but they would NOT BE LAWS, just clarification that no laws have been passed to prohibit MDing on that public land.

So to sum up, I'd have to say in my opinion, your advice is just wrong. Since nexon1 (the OP) asked for help "...finding the best starting place when determine MD laws for the different levels of Government property, including local, state, and federal lands?", you might want to try focusing on the topic and not worry so much about your agenda.

Since I don't know "the best starting place", I just suggest to nexon1 that wherever he/she wants to MD, they should research whether the land is public or private, and if PUBLIC...research the laws that have been passed and published IN BLACK and WHITE that apply to that specific public property and obey the law. If MDing has not been prohibited by law, then it's allowed.
 
HarveyH48 said:
The Code of Ethics, only requires you to know your local laws, doesn't say you have to follow them. You only need to know whether or not you can afford the fines, or bail, if you want to press the tolerance issue that far... <sarcasm/bad advice>


Asking if detecting and recover is allowed, lets the local authority know you a responsible, and want to do the right thing, above personal enrichment. It lets them know that decent, honest people metal detect too. Not just those sneaky nighthawks, who climb fences, and leave huge gaping holes in the sports fields... Isn't better they hear about the hobby from ethical hunters, or hear about from complaints? You can sneak around all you want, but eventually it catches up to you. You don't have to avoid being seen, if you aren't doing anything wrong.
Click to expand...

Is there someone here on the forum that is saying 'don't follow the Code of Ethics? If so, would you please provide their screen name and quote them? If not, please help me understand your sarcasm.

Who on here is not 'doing the right thing' and is MDing for personal enrichment? MDing is a hobby, not an occupation IMO. Do you know anyone [as you infer] who is breaking any laws. If so, you have an obligation to report him/her to appropriate officials.

A new forum member has asked for assistance and this is what you've got for assistance?
 
Here goes the broken record again!

Could somebody please tape a few pennies over the needle so it will quit skipping on this spot every time?

<°)))>{
 
HarveyH48 said:
..whether or not you can afford the fines, or bail, if you want to press the tolerance issue that far....
Click to expand...

Got any examples of someone getting "fines", jail, etc... for detecting innocuous parks, beaches, forests, etc... where there was no specific rule saying "no detecting" in existence? Ie.: fines, etc... for nothing but the boiler plate catch "destruction" "alter", "remove", etc... If you have any examples, please let us know.


HarveyH48 said:
... Asking if detecting and recover is allowed, lets the local authority know you a responsible, and want to do the right thing.....
Click to expand...

Would you apply this logic to flying frisbees ? If not, why ? And why is detecting places that lack a "no detecting" rule/law = the "wrong" thing ?

HarveyH48 said:
.... decent, honest people metal detect ....
Click to expand...

I consider looking up rules for oneself to be "decent and honest". :D

HarveyH48 said:
.... Not just those sneaky nighthawks, who climb fences, and leave huge gaping holes in the sports fields... ....
Click to expand...

Who's talking about jumping fences and leaving holes here ? Never saw that mentioned at all in this post.

HarveyH48 said:
..You don't have to avoid being seen, if you aren't doing anything wrong.
Click to expand...

Can you apply that to nose-picking too ? I suspect you use a little discretion in timing for doing that. So as not to offend persons who might not like that, eh? I too wish that "every last person (archie, etc...) loved my hobby of md'ing. But alas, I've chosen to face reality.
 
It's always been my understanding that if there is no city law then any state law applies. If there is no City or State law then the Federal law applies. Federal law is very strict on what can be removed from property be it private or public.

Source: http://www.saa.org/ForthePublic/Resources/MetalDetectingInArchaeology/LawsRegardingMetalDetectingonprivateproperty/tabid/1032/Default.aspx

Laws Regarding Metal Detecting on private property, State property, and Federal property Minimize
A metal detector user may be in violation of the law if artifacts are recovered during metal detecting, or if archaeological sites are disturbed during metal detecting activities. Artifacts and archaeological sites on federal, state, and local jurisdiction-controlled properties are protected by law. Archaeological resources on private property are also safeguarded by law (e.g., trespassing).

Violation of these laws carries serious consequences including the possibility of fines, jail time, and confiscation of the metal detector and other equipment used in the violation (such as vehicles). Other laws may apply including theft, destruction of private or government property, vandalism, and driving in prohibited areas.
Click to expand...
 
To the OP, keep in mind that mountaindigger surface detects (picking up finds from the surface) so when he says "MDing isn't banned" he's usually referring to the rare type that does not involve digging (knowing full well of course that 99% of those asking these legal-type questions are planning to MD AND of course dig to recover the target). Such can be the way of getting "advice" on this forum.

To the others who are rightfully sick of these threads, I hear ya! I have simply written what I think would be be the best and safest course of action in response to the OP's question and will try to leave it there. :D
 
Detector said:
It's always been my understanding that if there is no city law then any state law applies. If there is no City or State law then the Federal law applies. Federal law is very strict on what can be removed from property be it private or public.

Source: http://www.saa.org/ForthePublic/Resources/MetalDetectingInArchaeology/LawsRegardingMetalDetectingonprivateproperty/tabid/1032/Default.aspx
Click to expand...

Detector

Read the very first sentence of your source. It say's "A metal detector user may be in violation of the law if artifacts are recovered during metal detecting, or if archaeological sites are disturbed during metal detecting activities." Well, you may be committing a illegal act but guess what...you may not. That's why it's very important to know all laws that apply to where you are MDing.

I'll add that the source is the SAA and the SAA has it's agenda. BTW, the SAA would like to have the authority to write, pass and interpret law especially as it applies to 'artifacts'...but in reality, they must rely only on their influence on those who actually have the authority to write, pass, and interpret laws. After all, who wouldn't want to be KING of the USofA?

Your comment " If there is no City or State law then the Federal law applies" is just too vague of a comment to be universally applied to MDing. I agree if your point is that ARPA applies to MDing. It also applies to digging pipelines, excavating foundations, and other types of digging activities. So again, it's important to know the applicable laws for exactly where you are MDing.
 
stewart73 said:
To the OP, keep in mind that mountaindigger surface detects (picking up finds from the surface) so when he says "MDing isn't banned" he's usually referring to the rare type that does not involve digging (knowing full well of course that 99% of those asking these legal-type questions are planning to MD AND of course dig to recover the target). Such can be the way of getting "advice" on this forum.

To the others who are rightfully sick of these threads, I hear ya! I have simply written what I think would be be the best and safest course of action in response to the OP's question and will try to leave it there. :D
Click to expand...

To nexon1,
Keep in mind that stew doesn't know what he's talking about when he says he knows anything about what mountain digger is talking about. :shrug:

To all, I apologize for stew and hope that stew will actually leave it there. But, I have my doubts.:iwish:

To stew, :waiting:
 
In my state, CT, your allowed to MD in state parks. DEEP or The dept of energy and environmental protection states it in the State Park Rules on their website. Metal detecting allowed but limited to surface collection only. So in reality you can't dig. I carry only the handheld standard lesche when im on a rare hunt in a State park and I use it just to srcape away the leaves and stuff so I can see this surface. Sure there's been times when I really got scraping pretty heavy. Truth is I usuall hit trails and woods or odd places when in State parks, fishing areas and rough to acess spots.
Towns where I've hit town parks I looked up their park dept rules of public use and do not see mding prohibited, check the signs and rules as I enter the town park and hit it. Stick with my little red handle lesche and have never had a problem. Of coarse I can walk back over a spot I've just dug 10 holes and I can't even see where I was. Coinshooting, actually its a stretch even calling it a hole. I can slice and pop a quarter out of the sod, barely making an opening. Stick to good ethics and start by just hitting around the town parks that the town has a parks dept website. Check the rules and if its not mention that you can't detect go give a try. Stick around the tot lot and walkways and get a feel for the place. You see park maintainence that's ok just poke around with your md's and 99% of the time they ignore you or say hello. Town parks is what I'm advising. Get a few under your belt and get your feet wet. HH
 
Detector said:
It's always been my understanding that if there is no city law then any state law applies. If there is no City or State law then the Federal law applies. ...
Click to expand...

Can you please tell where you're getting this from ? You're saying that simply because a city and county are a sub-parts of the larger state, then stricter state laws automatically subrogate down to city and county park level ? Or that since states are merely a sub-part of the larger fed, that that means that stricter fed. laws prevail ?

And it sounds like you distinguish that this is only true if that lower level entity has no law (allowance) to the contrary. In other words, if the state or the fed disallows md'ing, yet the lower level entity (city or county) has a specific ALLOWANCE , then only in that case, it would be ok, right ? Contrast to if the lower level was simply silent on the issue (neither banning, nor specifically allowing), then in that case, it's deemed that the higher level (state or fed.) applies, thus banning it.

So in OTHER WORDS: no one can detect without a specific allowance (ie.: a law saying "metal detecting allowed".) Since there is, at fed levels, verbage disallowing taking-of-artifacts.

If this is what you're saying, then it's flying in the face of reality. People detect ALL THE TIME at parks, schools, beaches, forests, etc... where there is no express "allowance" (where it's simply silent on the issue).

Hence you are mistaken: Fed laws applies to FED parks (and not even "all" federal land BTW, since not all fed land is fed PARK land). And state park rules apply to STATE PARKS (not lesser entities sub-parts of states). County park rules apply to COUNTY Parks, not the cities within that county. Etc....
 
Like Tom said at least try to find out what you can on your own. Close to me is a Missouri conservation area and I stopped in and asked them and they said no absolutely no disturbance of the soil so I responded that they needed to get out to the lakes on the property because almost everyone out there fishing had a steel rod holder driven into the ground the guy looked at me and said that's splitting hairs isn't it and I asked is the law as it is written or up to your interpretation. I knew the conversation was going no where so I walked out as soon as I had upset him enough.
 
Hdnsouth said:
.... they said no absolutely no disturbance of the soil so I responded that they needed to get out to the lakes on the property because almost everyone out there fishing had a steel rod holder driven into the ground .....
Click to expand...

Hdnsouth: Do you know what the difference is between you and those fishermen is ? The difference is: They did not ask "Can I disturb the soil with my fishing device please?" If they had done so, they most certainly would be told the technicalities (as you were), and would have been told "no".

Contrast to md'rs, who DO feel the need to go ask "Can I?", and wonder why we get silly things morphed to result in a "no" to us.

Thus shame on those fishermen for not asking "can I ?" first :no:

Moral of the story ? : Sometimes it pays not to ask silly questions. Doh!
 
Tom_in_CA said:
Hdnsouth: Do you know what the difference is between you and those fishermen is ? The difference is: They did not ask "Can I disturb the soil with my fishing device please?" If they had done so, they most certainly would be told the technicalities (as you were), and would have been told "no".

Contrast to md'rs, who DO feel the need to go ask "Can I?", and wonder why we get silly things morphed to result in a "no" to us.

Thus shame on those fishermen for not asking "can I ?" first :no:

Moral of the story ? : Sometimes it pays not to ask silly questions. Doh!
Click to expand...

The person I spoke with showed me the area rules that stated no metal detecting because of soil disturbance and it was because they wouldn't allow soil disturbance in any form being the reason banning metal detectors and that was when I pointed out the rod holders. James A. Reed is the conservation area and I thought I'd ask whoever was at the front desk already knowing metal detecting is off limits in all Missouri conservation areas taking the chance the person I would talk with was probably a volunteer and they may have given me the green light.
 
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