Pushing legal permission?

Krougle23 · Apr 11, 2017

Hey everyone, sorry for the long post. I haven't posted much, probably because I don't find interesting things, but enjoy reading everyone's finds quite a bit! The reason for this post is from ScubaDetector's recent post about detecting at sledding hills. (https://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=245819)

So, all independent research I have done on my town (Wausau, WI) points to detecting in state parks as illegal, but county or city parks as legal (less than 6", and without a trace philosophy). Being a law abiding citizen I am, I called the police dept one day last week when it was finally nice out, and asked about metal detecting on one of their city parks. The officer, although very polite, informed me that it's illegal. After questioning him a little further on it, he put me on hold to talk to a lieutenant, and when he came back he affirmed that it wasn't legal in any county or city park. I was starting to get a little frustrated, because having done my homework, I thought he was wrong. Long story short-ish I went out detecting anyways in one of the parks with a printout of this http://www.co.marathon.wi.us/Departments/ParksRecreationForestry/OtherPrograms/MetalDetecting.aspx. After about 15 minutes of detecting, I'm sure you all guessed it, city trooper pulls up and parks next to my car

. With a sigh and a "here we go" mentality, I continued to dig out the 15th pull tab out of the ground and replace it leaving the hole unseen (getting really good at that). After about 7 or 8 minutes, the cop puts his car into reverse, and drives away. Never got out to talk to me, or even get out to lean on his car and give me a menacing look. :?:

So my question is this: after getting told via phone from two police officers it is illegal, then not getting pinched when you actually did it anyways, would you continue? Should I ask for the specific law prohibiting it? I want to check out a popular sledding hill in town (in a city park) and become very rich like Scuba, but if I can't make the bail money it's not worth it!

You guys seem to really know this sport's legalities... Thoughts?

Mikey48 · Apr 11, 2017

By my reading of Marathon Co. regulations, as linked in your post, it appears that you are allowed to metal detect in the approved areas, but not allowed to recover anything by opening the ground, other than by "probing", as in using a screwdriver or other implement to find the target, flip it on it's edge and pull it out with fingers. No cutting of sod or digging holes. If it is sandy or sandy loam and targets are shallow, that is a very efficient way to work. If it gets much past 3 inches it gets difficult without moving some "ground".
Good Luck to you. :wave:

Crackerjack · Apr 11, 2017

I imagine said LEO got an important call that he had to respond to--metal detectorist is small potatoes.

Tom_in_CA · Apr 11, 2017

Krougle23 said:
....So my question is this: after getting told via phone from two police officers it is illegal, then not getting pinched when you actually did it anyways, would you continue? .... Thoughts?

Well my question to you is: A) If you already did your homework to know that there was no prohibition (hence not dis-allowed), or B) an express allowance , if I'm understanding Mikey's post correctly ?? Then why did you feel the need to call the police and ask their approval ?

As your case shows (and as happens so often in this hobby): You seem to have simply been the victim of "no one cared ... UNTIL you asked". Ie.: the "safe answer" from a desk-jockey who envisions geeks with shovels .

If you are ignored (even by a passing cop looking right at you), then why would you wonder "whether you can continue" ? What are you waiting for? Red carpets to be rolled out ? A neon saying say "metal detecting allowed" ?

Don't over-think this. Don't swat hornet's nests.

NectarDetector · Apr 12, 2017

If a cop told you it is illegal... then he must know he has grounds to react to that illegal situation.

You can either listen to the law enforcement (read that word) or you can listen to some random guy on the forum tell you that it is LEGAL (until you get caught).

Either way, YOU deal with the consequences. You know the score now, what you do with it comes down to how far you wish to push the envelope

Just because THAT cop left, doesn't mean the city cop that see's you will.

If you feel the cop who informed you is wrong, by all means, open a line of communication and ask what SPECIFIC ORDINANCE he would have grounds to arrest or write you a ticket for.

If he can provide that, now you know.... if he can not, he will then learn the actual law or ordinance on it, but to keep doing something a law enforcement officer told you was illegal is as you said, pushing your limits.

Ask the guy to show an ordinance, in a kind way... ask what grounds he would react to you metal detecting.

Or, you can just sneak around and keep looking over your shoulder if thats how you get your thrills....

#4 of that document says: 4. Shallow ground probing within the top six inches is permitted, however removing soil to locate something that is buried, cutting back sod or digging holes is prohibited.

So "metal detecting" is allowed... DIGGING or CUTTING SOD is illegal and against the ordinance, thus the officer CAN consider you VANDALIZING the park by digging and cutting the sod... destruction of public property...

Just because the one cop saw it as small potatoes does not mean that law enforcement can not enforce that ordinance.... just because "you dont swat a hornets nest" by asking does NOT Mean you are not still in violation. :grin:

It's good to see that you have morals and ethics and wish to be a good ambassador to our hobby by following rules and guidelines, kudos to you for representing ALL detectorists in a positive light by making the effort to ensure that you are following the rules of your community. Thanks for that. :cool:

Skippy SH13 · Apr 12, 2017

I'm baffled why you called the police to ask, when you had the ordinances yourself...

That's just alerting them to something you're intending to do, and if they don't "like" it, they can start watching for it. I'm with Tom on this one. Do your own research and then deal with it later.

And remember, an unenforced ordinance is basically NOT an ordinance, anyway. That's the case in a nearby city. Enforcement doesn't care, and will even come up and friendly-like ask you what you've found.

Just do the research, go detect, and enjoy. Cheers!

Skippy

Mud-puppy · Apr 12, 2017

You are right on the edge there dude...They know you now since you went to the trouble of asking....Screwdriver work may get you a warning....but if you are wearing a toolbelt and kneepads and DIGGING...Its just a matter of time...

You keep this up and you ARE gonna get busted, then you can explain to the Judge your research into the Laws and how well you can fill a hole in and all...Nothing of any good comes of arguing with a guy who has a Gun and a Badge....Even if you are in the 'Right'!

If Leo rolls up, "Some Lady dropped her ring" is what you say...not the time to get into a debate about semantics...Dont make yourself a target just to prove a point...just go hunt...quietly...

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

NectarDetector said:
If a cop told you it is illegal... then he must know he has grounds to react to that illegal situation.....

The inherent problem with this statement, is that it implies there is a cut & dried answer. Of "legal" vs "not-legal". If this premise statement is true, then sure: Everything else you're saying logically follows.

But unfortunately there's oodles of posts where it becomes clear that you can get 2 or 3 different answers from the VERY SAME CITY DESK. Depending on who happens to be manning the desk, their mood, the way the question is phrased, etc... Or posts saying how people got 2 or 3 different police answers, depending on which cop they asked. :roll:

Thus far from being a black & white, cut & dried question, it can be a grey area question. Subject to catch-all nebulous things that *might* apply. And .... when you put the "wheels in someone's head turning for their approval", all you do is swat hornet's nests risking a "safe" answer.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that whomever gave krougle23 that original "no", might never have given the matter a moment's thought before this "pressing issue phone call". I mean: If that cop had just been passing by the park, saw a man with a detector, it probably would never have mentally registered. Oh but sure: Now guess what will happen when he passes a park and sees an md'r? He'll remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others :no:

See how that works ?

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

NectarDetector said:
.... ask what SPECIFIC ORDINANCE he would have grounds ..... Ask the guy to show an ordinance...

Ahh, here's an interesting twist: When md'rs eventually realize they *might* just be getting personal whim opinion, they do as you say: Rather than saying "Hi, can I metal detect?", they phrase it more carefully (as you suggest): "Is there any rules or laws here regarding metal detectors?". And .... if told "no" in any way, will follow it up with "show me where that's written".

Genius idea, right ? It puts the burden on them to SHOW you chapter and verse, eh ? And if there's nothing that said "no metal detectors", the poor cop or desk clerk would be forced to admit this. And you'd be on your merry way to metal detect. Eh ? Simply genius.

But here's where the devil is in the details. Persons employing the above tactics have run into the following various scenarios:

1) No, because we have rules that forbid alter and deface. Or that forbid harvest/remove. Or d/t lost & found laws, etc.... And do you really think you're going to win the debate of semantics on whether md'rs run afoul of those things ? (mind you, the person "reaching for this answer", has probably never given the matter a moment's thought before, but ... hey ... you asked, so now the wheels of their brain are going to "justify" the no they just gave you).

2) No because of cultural heritage issues. Hmmm, ok, so now do you think you're going to win the debate of whether or not you're only looking for modern change and jewelry ?

3) We would prefer you didn't (as if you'd just asked their personal whim). So you keep pressing them saying "but where is that written?". Thus guess what shows up on the agenda for "proposed rules" at the next city council meeting ? :roll:

Mud-puppy · Apr 12, 2017

This scenario is exactly why I never research rules or ask permission to detect on public areas!! Its nothing but a waste of time! Have good ignorant Fun where ever you want to go! Just go hunt! Be discreet, leave no trace, and be invisible if you can!...Common sense!

Nobody wants to Cuff N Stuff some poor drooling pants wetting ignorant old Duffer looking for a 'lost ring for some damned Lady' unless you poked the hornets nest intentionally aforehand!...Then, it becomes an issue of 'Respecting My Authority'...In field, you will lose that debate...Dont paint yourself Blaze Orange by asking 'Permetso' aforehand!...Just kiss the Girl!

Going through life unseen, unmolested and unnoticed is a primary skill to develop...

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

NectarDetector said:
..... Or, you can just sneak around and keep looking over your shoulder ....

The problem with statements like this: "sneak around" and "look over your shoulder", is that it implies the following: That you or I are doing something illegal. If that premise is true, then sure: You must "sneak around" and "look over your shoulder". Then yes, what you are saying would logically follow.

But since when is that premise a "given" ? You are merely presuming your own starting point (that you are doing "something illegal") from the outset. Ie.: presuming your own point at the start of the discussion, before THAT issue was even decided.

However, I need to clarify: JUST because there may not be any specific forbiddance in law , does NOT mean that "every last person will love and adore you". It does't mean you're guaranteed to have carte blanche to go out at high noon waltzing over people's beach blankets. You've got to realize that we ARE in a hobby that has ... uh .... "connotations". And not every last person in the world may like it. Oh sure, you can run around ahead of time trying to get every last person to "sign off" on you if you want. But for pete's sake, just like ANYTHING in life: Sometimes you just avoid spitting in certain people's holy water (rather than trying to convince them it's not holy). Thus can't you pick lower traffic times, and .... if there is a singular miss or mr. lookie lou who "doesn't like it", then simply avoid that one person ?

If you want to call that "sneaking around", FINE: sneak around. Kind of like nose-picking: Can't you just choose discreet times so as not to offend someone squeemish ?

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

NectarDetector said:
.... #4 of that document says: 4. Shallow ground probing within the top six inches is permitted, however removing soil to locate something that is buried, cutting back sod or digging holes is prohibited. .....

And .... most certainly .... there are commandos that follow md'rs around with rulers "measuring to make sure you didn't exceed 6 inches". Right ? And that come by armed with dictionaries to discern that you only "probed shallow" verses "cut" or "dug", right ? Eg.: the difference between a slit and a dig. Yup. I'm sure they're hiding behind every tree, waiting to jump out and split hair over this, eh ?

I'm not saying to "throw caution to the wind", but ... sheesk, in the light of an EXPRESS ALLOWANCE, I think md'rs can over-think the minutia a bit too much.

dumbdigger · Apr 12, 2017

sigh..... another "you have to walk on egg shells to hunt" thread........
It only takes one, just one.....
DD

Mud-puppy · Apr 12, 2017

This reminds me of something tragic that sort of applies here...We once lived in a small town, everybody knew each other..Well, our neighbor Lady and a great friend suffered from Huntingtons Correa...Its a horrible ailment...causes a person to stumble around and speech is slurred....She would go walking on the Lakeside trail every morning....

Well, there was a new young cop in town who didnt know this, and noticed her one morning stumbling along on the walking trail...He approached what he considered a 'drunk or drug addict', and in the ensuing episode, busted her up most severely...cuffed and stuffed this poor woman...

In his defense, it was understandable...He didnt know any better, he isnt a doctor...Anyway, to get by in this World,...a guy has to be careful and not draw attention to themselves, or at least have some high authority on speed dial than can assist in these events...

A guy just has to be invisible no matter how legal and right you are...you could easily get killed by brandishing a lesch, considered a pedo for being in a schoolyard totter...just be super aware is all...know when to leave a party...Its got nothing to do with 'sneaking'...its about survival...

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

dumbdigger said:
sigh..... another "you have to walk on egg shells to hunt" thread........

Well, yes, of course you must walk on egg shells. Didn't you know that ?? It's your OBLIGATION to go around and make sure every last person in your town "signs off" on you and your intentions, loves & adores you, etc...

Ok, hurry: Go do the right thing and make us proud !

dumbdigger · Apr 12, 2017

Doesnt matter if it is legal, you can have a sign at every park that states detecting is legal here..

There will still be that 1 out of 25 person in the public that sees it as a form of treasure hunting and they will try to shut the hobby down.

This is why I keep saying "it only takes one" especially if he/she has any leverage in the community.

DD

Tom_in_CA · Apr 12, 2017

dumbdigger said:
Doesnt matter if it is legal, you can have a sign at every park that states detecting is legal here..

There will still be that 1 out of 25 person in the public that sees it as a form of treasure hunting and they will try to shut the hobby down.

This is why I keep saying "it only takes one" especially if he/she has any leverage in the community.

DD

I dunno if I'd go so far as to say it's "1 in 25". I think the average person simply ignores and doesn't even register when they see us. And actually, most people I run into are rather curious. Saying "where can I buy one" and "how deep does it go", etc...

But sure, there will always be gripers in this world. I even had one lady on the beach come up to me and say my metal detector was bothering her dog. I think she thought the detector was emitting some sort of frequency that only dogs heard ? :?:

Ok, so you tell me: Was it my obligation to make sure she's happy ? Do I have to shut down my day "lest she be mad" ? Or do I just give lip service and ignore her ?

When it comes to nice manicured turf, it's gotten to where I actually do most of my hunting at night nowadays. So peaceful. So serene . :roll:

Mud-puppy · Apr 12, 2017

Bottom line is, it doesnt matter if its 'approved and legal' or not...just go...be invisible...nobody can enforce a law if they never see you breaking it...like speeding...We ALL have done it and essentially 'Broke the Law'...Go turn yourself in if thats what helps you sleep at night...

'Ruin the reputation' of the Hobby? What Reputation? Thats really a laugh! As if the gayness of old Btards picking up pennies couldnt get any worse!! Who would ever admit to being a Detectorist let alone be seen out in public? Not like Golfers who just dont seem to care about their reputation and fully embraced the gayness of their chosen Sport....! They revel in it and brag about it even! They even have electric carts! WTH?

Again, if nobody ever sees you, what reputation did you ruin? :?:

Just dont be seen or admit it if you are! All this gear in my car belongs to a 'friend' ... Its not mine!!....Its always a fun subject though...Time and Gold Wait for Nobody....Now lets talk about 'Riparian Rights' if you really want to get technical! :laughing:

Good thing about water hunting, No cop wants to get his pants wet wading out to debate the issue... :laughing:

Silversmith45 · Apr 12, 2017

After being told that it was illegal you went detecting anyway. How old was the information that you had? Laws get changed all the time and most changes aren't noted. The police officers would probably have any latest changes. You would be better off asking about any laws against detecting than going against what you were told. It gives the impression that we in the hobby are going to do what we want no matter what we have been told. Asking about permission often makes them think about something that they would otherwise not give any attention to.

Mud-puppy · Apr 12, 2017

Another thing thats odd about this Sport? Do NOT even mention to anybody that you are a Detectorist!! Even long time Friends and Family members! You may as well say you collect stamps, beanie babies, or enjoy building HO train track layouts!

Sheesh! Talk about ruining your reputation! I dont care if you exhibit mountains of wonderful Gold finds! The general non-detecting Public looks upon you with pity, ridicule, and scorn! Dont even bring it up! Its not a wonder that cops an authorities have an immediate negative reaction!

Theres like about no other Sport that will get you labeled as a complete broad spectrum societal leper as this one!...Even by long time Family and Friends that know how tough you are!

Hell, you can play Fantasy Football, World of Warcraft...run a tractor in Farmville, even become a Furry or engage in Larping or CosPlay... make your own outfits even...and you get more respect than telling people you are a detectorist!

I aint never seen nothing like it! I tried too! When it comes to acceptable Hobbies, We are on the bottom of the barrel and at the top of the gayness/ridicule spectrum!

Definitely not a hobby to list on "MyTime" if a guy is looking to score a girl...Hell..just say you enjoy 'new adventures and walks on the beach' ...something....anything!...Heaven forbid, 'Cuddling' even! Anything other than detecting! :laughing:

You might as well say you are an 'alcoholic pedophile with chronic halitosis and uncontrollable Irritable Bowel Syndrome liquid flatulance, who cant dance and has No pension!!'

Even talking about Beanie Babies and HO trains is better than bringing up you like to detect!...You at least got a shot there! Or Golf...or Larping....basically the same thing....easier and cheaper than doing a really sweet HO layout or collecting stamps..you need a few skills for that.... :laughing:

Pushing legal permission?

Krougle23

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Mikey48

Crackerjack

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Tom_in_CA

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NectarDetector

Skippy SH13

Mud-puppy

Tom_in_CA

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Tom_in_CA

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Mud-puppy

Tom_in_CA

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Tom_in_CA

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dumbdigger

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Mud-puppy

Tom_in_CA

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dumbdigger

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Silversmith45

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Mud-puppy

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