What to do? Advice

Cylon_Detector · Jul 17, 2014

So there's a great old 1920s school building and grounds about half a mile from me. I believe it's where the children of the original owners of our house went to school in the 1930s.

Currently owned and maintained by the Board of Cooperative Educational Services and used by them for classes and summer school. This summer the building is closed due to internal renovations.

After calling the main offices of the BOCES program, on Monday July 14th, I was transferred to a gentleman who seemed to be in charge of the school facilities in question. He was stumped by my request to metal detect there. I explained my interest in local history and the hobby and he said that this summer would be the best time to do it. He said he's make some phone calls and ask the higher authorities at the program what they thought. He said he'd get back to me in a few days. I called back on Wednesday and he was out of his office but said he'd be back Thursday (today) and would definitely ask them about it and get back to me today.

So today, Thursday, July 17th I've been waiting around for his call, my treasure finger itching and he hasn't called.

My questions are: 1. Is it too pushy/persistent to call him again, and could that jeopardize my chances to dig this site?

2. If it's a BOCES program, is it owned by the state and thus public land, and then do I even need permission? (Never dug a school before, so I don't know these things).

This would be a huge help, thanks!

HH

Tom_in_CA · Jul 17, 2014

Notice that the fellow was "stumped" at your question. What does that tell you? Tells me that there's no set-in-place procedure or rule for whether metal detectors are allowed (or prohibited) It tells you that there ISN'T anything addressing this specifically anyhow. So your question may end up being a whimsical arbitrary answer, based on their mental perceptions of what it involves (damaging landscape, "taking" things, etc....).

And when passed back and forth between various multiple desks, you can only imagine what the "safe" answer will tend to be :roll:

And whether or not they said "yes" or "no" really doesn't lend itself to the question of whether or not their permission was needed. Because what did a person expect as an answer from a question like this ? Persons in authority aren't inclined to say something like : " gee that's a silly question. You don't need my permission, if there were no rule prohibiting it". No, human nature doesn't work like that.

I think you should have just gone. But that's just my opinion. Because now if someone says "no" (who perhaps never would have given the matter thought before), guess what'll happen when that same pencil-pusher sees another md'r at a school? He'll remember the earlier inquiry, and think 'aha! there's one of *them*", and start booting others

Cylon_Detector · Jul 17, 2014

Hmmm So it's nearly 5pm, which is basically the close of business for most people, especially in the summer. I'm half tempted to just ride up there and swing for a few hours. It doesn't get dark until around 9pm here. I'm pretty sure I won't run into anyone up there. And if I do, perhaps I can ask them in person.

What do you think? Worth the risk? It's a state funded program that exists across NYS to assist the NYS school board.

Here's their website for more info http://www.scboces.org/Domain/3

Tom_in_CA · Jul 17, 2014

Cylon_Detector said:
... Worth the risk?...

Risk? What "risk" ?

I mean, sure, there's a "risk" anytime in life you do anything. You can drive down the street tomorrow, and someone might flip you off in traffic because they didn't like the way you changed lanes. Ok, gee, I'm real sorry. I certainly wish I could please every last person in the world.

I hunt schools all the time. Yes even of the nature you describe (ancillary semi-retired schools, or converted to admin, etc...). And don't have issues. Oh sure, maybe now and then you need to use common sense and don't go at high traffic times "begging for attention". Because sure: detectors are a magnet for attention, and contain connotations. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is. And sometimes in this hobby you do have to wear a thick skin, and avoid those type persons who might gripe.

DaMangRon · Jul 17, 2014

Who owns the land? For me personally, if it's state, federal, or privately owned I'd stay away unless I had written permission. If it's owned by the local township (regardless of state funding) I'd say it's fair game and you don't need permission. Local township owned schools and parks get funding from OUR taxes....so we should be able to MD without a problem!

Tom_in_CA · Jul 17, 2014

DaMangRon said:
.... if it's state, federal, or privately owned I'd stay away unless I had written permission. If it's owned by the local township (regardless of state funding) I'd say it's fair game....

DaMannRon, I'm curious: Why the distinction between something state-owned, versus county or city owned ?

You know that the oft-cited state-by-state listing (like the FMDAC has, for instance) is only for state PARKS. And not all state land is state "park" land. Other forms of state land would be: road-right-of-way. Or something like for a "school" (if this were a state school, but not likely). Anyhow, don't confuse dire sounding things you may have read in the state-by-state list, to mean "all state land" . It's only referring to state parks land.

Cylon_Detector · Jul 17, 2014

So I did a bit more digging and it's part of the school district of the greater township that our small town is in, which as far as I know is a public district. The school in question is only Pre-K to Kindergarten these days, but back when it was built I believe it was K-5th at least. So the BOCES program does not in face own it. They just use it for summer school over the summer. So really it seems the area is becoming grayer and grayer.

Ok yes I've confirmed that the school in question is public. Heck I'm going to ride over and see what it's like.

Justdigginit · Jul 17, 2014

In that case the answer is simple ( I have run into this) the Superintendent of Schools for the area.. In my case he gave me permission to detect only when school is out and no children are present. (weekends only here)

stewart73 · Jul 17, 2014

I try to follow a pretty simple personal policy of always knowing if I'm supposed to be detecting a place or not. No assuming, guessing, bending obvious rules to my own needs, etc, as is often recommended around these parts. There are so many places out there where we CAN legally detect that I don't worry myself too much over the gray areas, or the places where we aren't supposed to detect. In your specific case I probably would have waited for a reply (if I had asked a question) before detecting. If you were just going to detect anyway you probably should have just gone and done that in the first place without asking...I'd be a bit miffed if somebody had asked me for permission and I told them I'd look into it and get back to them and they just went ahead and detected anyway in the interim. If I were you I'd give him a call back and ask what's up. But that's just me. Good luck either way. :yes:

NectarDetector · Jul 17, 2014

stewart73 said:
In your specific case I probably would have waited for a reply (if I had asked a question) before detecting. If you were just going to detect anyway you probably should have just gone and done that in the first place without asking...I'd be a bit miffed if somebody had asked me for permission and I told them I'd look into it and get back to them and they just went ahead and detected anyway in the interim.

I agree, well said Stewart

Cylon_Detector · Jul 17, 2014

Yeah I'm all for being cautious and getting all the required permissions. I took a ride over to the school grounds and there are 2 signs posted one that reads "NO TRESPASSING" and another that they put up around all schools about trespassers and people loitering on school grounds being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. While I know these signs are meant to deter vandals, vagrants, and perverts, I didn't enter the grounds. I will be calling the school board tomorrow and going through the necessary channels to get permission. Better to have permission than not.

Kemper · Jul 17, 2014

Originally Posted by stewart73 View Post
In your specific case I probably would have waited for a reply (if I had asked a question) before detecting. If you were just going to detect anyway you probably should have just gone and done that in the first place without asking...I'd be a bit miffed if somebody had asked me for permission and I told them I'd look into it and get back to them and they just went ahead and detected anyway in the interim.

I agree, well said Stewart -NectarDetector

I too agree with Stewart at this point. If the Op would have been able to know Tom's perspective (and agreed) before he asked he may be in a better position. Now knowing there are no trespassing signs makes it a different situation.

stewart73 · Jul 17, 2014

Cylon_Detector said:
Yeah I'm all for being cautious and getting all the required permissions. I took a ride over to the school grounds and there are 2 signs posted one that reads "NO TRESPASSING" and another that they put up around all schools about trespassers and people loitering on school grounds being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. While I know these signs are meant to deter vandals, vagrants, and perverts, I didn't enter the grounds. I will be calling the school board tomorrow and going through the necessary channels to get permission. Better to have permission than not.

Well said. I'd say you did the right thing. Hopefully you'll get a positive reply!

Tom_in_CA · Jul 17, 2014

Kemper said:
.... Now knowing there are no trespassing signs makes it a different situation.

well yeah. But correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those type obligatory signs on EVERY school nowadays ? :?:

For, as Cylon himself says, is "... meant to deter vandals, vagrants, and perverts"

Seems there signs like that at all our public schools here too. Eg.: "visitors check in at office", "school usage only" "no trespassing", or things to that effect. I'm not even sure you could read half of them, as they are either fallen down, illegible, etc... They don't seem to stop anyone from jogging the track, shooting hoops, etc... I too have always understood them as a tool to evict someone who thinks he's going to camp there, or rednecks who want to spin donuts on the lawn with their 4-wheel drive, etc... I've seen those signs on the shopping center malls too: "private property. Permission to pass revokable,", blah blah.

But sure, taken literally, you're right: the letter of the law is the letter of the law. So if that's ominous to someone, then .... stick to park's I suppose.

Kemper · Jul 17, 2014

Tom_in_CA said:
well yeah. But correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those type obligatory signs on EVERY school nowadays ? For, as Cylon himself says, is "... meant to deter vandals, vagrants, and perverts"

Seems there signs like that at all our public schools here too. Eg.: "visitors check in at office", "school usage only" "no trespassing", or things to that effect. I'm not even sure you could read half of them, as they are either fallen down, illegible, etc... They don't seem to stop anyone from jogging the track, shooting hoops, etc... I too have always understood them as a tool to evict someone who thinks he's going to camp there, or rednecks who want to spin donuts on the lawn with their 4-wheel drive, etc... I've seen those signs on the shopping center malls too: "private property. Permission to pass revokable,", blah blah.

But sure, taken literally, you're right: the letter of the law is the letter of the law. So if that's ominous to someone, then .... stick to park's I suppose.

Yeah I hear ya but in this situation since he already asked and is waiting for a response he's in a different situation as far as me recommending he just go past the signs.

I agree with you as far as the signs go and what they mean and I probably wouldn't necessarily let them keep me from practicing a recreational activity such as metal detecting especially if other recreational activities are allowed.
But like I said "he already asked" so we know what problems that can create.

Justdigginit · Jul 17, 2014

Go to the school board, and find the Superintendent of Schools, introduce yourself, shake his hand, smile,, tell him what you want to do,, and I'll bet you he will give his permission.. (tell him you'll only do it on weekend or nights and not make a mess !)

Cylon_Detector · Jul 17, 2014

Thanks for all the opinions and info guys. The district office is right in town, so I'm heading there tomorrow to meet with the superintendent. Everyone had good stuff to say, but I think Justdigginit said it best. I always prefer the personal approach to the voice on the other end of the line or the text in an email when cold calling people for info.

I'll keep you guys updated on my progress, and if it's the treasure trove I think it might be, and I get to dig it, I'll post the finds here.

Thanks!

Tom_in_CA · Jul 17, 2014

Kemper said:
... but in this situation since he already asked...

Yup, once you ask, then it just puts the ball in their court as having needed their sanction. And then subsequently WITHOUT that sanction, they might think "wait a minute, I didn't *authorize* that" Thus you're right: If they subsequently see you (prior to their having made a decision), then yes, that looks askew. But notice what precipitated that "askew" outcome there . It was the act of asking, which presumes their say-so was needed.

Perhaps it was.. But perhaps it wasn't. But just saying that I agree with you that one ANYONE asks of any park, school, beach, etc... what does that infer subconciously to the person your asking? Namely: That their permission was needed. Lest why else would you be standing there asking, if their permission wasn't needed? A point not subconsciously lost on them. Then yes, you (and everyone after you) is subject to that from here on out.

Kemper · Jul 17, 2014

Cylon_Detector said:
Thanks for all the opinions and info guys. The district office is right in town, so I'm heading there tomorrow to meet with the superintendent. Everyone had good stuff to say, but I think Justdigginit said it best. I always prefer the personal approach to the voice on the other end of the line or the text in an email when cold calling people for info.

I'll keep you guys updated on my progress, and if it's the treasure trove I think it might be, and I get to dig it, I'll post the finds here.

Thanks!

Good luck if you go there tomorrow. Keep in mind that you have inquired and no one has returned your inquiry. If I were you I would just wait a little longer and keep records of your inquiry up to this point. They may work in your favor if you decide to go without their sanction.

If you do go there and ask in person and you are told "no" you have lost that site. If you go detect it in a way that no one or hardly anyone sees you you still have the chance of being told that you can not do it. I think your chances of having that site are far greater if you go without asking if you think you can legally do so. I urge you not to ask if you are only doing so to make yourself feel better. Do what you feel is best as far as a legal issue.

stewart73 · Jul 18, 2014

To you newbs out there: Don't put yourself and the hobby in jeopardy by ignoring NO TRESPASSING signs as is being intimated above. Until told otherwise by the proper authority do the smart thing and assume that NO TRESPASSING means just that. To do otherwise is pure folly, and for the life of me I cannot understand how posts saying otherwise are allowed to stand. :roll:

I'm glad the OP had the good sense to realize this and I wish him a positive result.

What to do? Advice

Cylon_Detector

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Tom_in_CA

Elite Member

Cylon_Detector

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Tom_in_CA

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DaMangRon

Tom_in_CA

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Cylon_Detector

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Justdigginit

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stewart73

NectarDetector

Cylon_Detector

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Kemper

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stewart73

Tom_in_CA

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Kemper

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Justdigginit

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Cylon_Detector

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Tom_in_CA

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Kemper

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stewart73

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