Is metal Detecting Street Margains and Bus Stops Trespassing?

All those laws are local. There is no standard nationwide answer. Even in a town where the curbstrips are city property I seek permission of the area is nicely manicured. Most homeowners let me do strips even if they deny me the yard access


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ole-sarge, this topic has been beat to death a million times on a million threads. Pertinent and good subject though, so don't get me wrong !

The only thing your link is showing is that Joe Blow homeowner must maintain (ie.: mow) his curbstrip. It does not address whether someone else walking there is "trespassing or not". But that's silly to begin with: of COURSE the public is allowed there (how else can you walk down the sidewalk? how else can you catch a bus there? etc...).

So it's not an issue of "trespass". And the mere fact someone accuses you of that, (although not pleasant) doesn't make it any-more-true.

The issue then boils down to damage, deface, etc... (as evidenced by your lookie-lou's comments). And as your post clearly says, you WEREN'T leaving any damage or defacement. Thus it seems to be nothing more than mental images that passer-bys can have (the obvious connotations that a man with a detector has). And you're never going to satisfy 100% of the people on earth to know/believe you'll do no harm.

So rather than disputing "trespass vs non-trespass" and "deface versus defacED", etc..., just go at lower traffic times when such persons are not likely to see you.

"Abutting Property Owners Are Responsible for Maintaining Their Portion of the Right-of-Way in Tacoma
According to our TMC 8.30.020, public right-of-way includes the area of land, the right to possession of which is secured by the City for right-of-way purposes and includes the traveled portion of the public streets and alleys, as well as the border area, which includes, but is not limited to, any sidewalks, planting strips, traffic circles, or medians."

Notice how it never says that the city owns that land, just the right to use it? My deed is worded similarly, but seems pretty clear about my owning from the curb to the alley in the back.

Think the old man was a little out of line, a bus stop, means people loitering around (on his property), dropping trash, trampling the precious grass, as they wait for their ride to arrive. You'd think that a rare occurrence, of a man with a metal detector, who he witness carefully digging a plug, and replacing it neatly, would be more of a treat...
I hope when I reach that age, small stuff doesn't bother me like that.

Most people don't really care much about those curb strips, beyond mowing and picking up some trash occasionally. It's part of the right-of-way, not much we can do to keep people off it, in a legal sense. The city has the right, to do what they want with it, even pave over it, to widen the roadway. Usually utilities are buried there, which get dug up for repairs, replacement, or upgrades.

I hunt curb strips, mostly. Never been challenged or ran off. I skip over the well maintained ones, as I know it takes time and expense to keep a nice green yard around here. Just doesn't happen naturally. I don't knock on the doors, and pester people, believe the interruption is more annoying to the owner, than seeing someone detecting the strip. Figure if it's ever an issue with a homeowner, I just need to be polite, respectful, and move on. I'm not doing anything wrong, or illegal, or damaging, should be a problem keeping the peace. There are many miles of curb strips, all with similar potential, skipping a few, isn't hurting me at all.

OleSarge said:

Is metal detecting the strip of dirt between the sidewalk and street, or the bus stops located therein, trespassing?
Until a few days ago I would have scoffed at this suggestion as being totally absurd and the product of another anti-metal detecting zealot.
Then, having finished MD'ing the tot lot of a large local park, I decided to cross the street and hit a bus stop located between the sidewalk and street curb there.
I cut small plugs and repair my holes to a condition that leaves a area in the same untouched condition as it was before I began.
So damage to the turf wasn't the issue...the issue was that I was allegedly metal detecting in someone's front yard, and it was considered as a illegal trespass.
I had barely began to recover a couple of target coins when a gent, well dressed, neat appearing and appearing to be 80+ years of age walked over and began watching me from a distance of about ten feet.
Within a minute or two the gent approached to a couple of feet and with no attempt to be courteous or respectful, asked why I was digging in his front yard.
I removed my headset and said that I was metal detecting, it was my hobby, and I was searching for coins.
He said this was totally unacceptable, and asked again why I was in his front yard digging.
I said that I was at a public bus stop, between the street and sidewalk, and no where near his property.
The elder gentleman, showing a little fire in his attitude, said that he paid taxes on the property and was required by city ordinance to maintain it, and he considered me to be trespassing and his property and destroying turf he took pride in maintaining.....And, without further ceremony, demanded I leave immediately.
I returned to my car to depart the area and, as I passed in front of his house, noticed him writing, by the way he was intently eyeing my car, my license number.
My metal detecting mojo was ruined for the day so I returned home and searched for a city ordinance which would either confirm or disprove his allegation I was trespassing by metal detecting a bus stop, on a public easement strip and clearly accessable to the public for whatever purpose they chose.
He was correct and here's what I found....https://www.cityoftacoma.org/govern...ma/pruning_and_removal/what_is_right-of-_way_.
Are there any opinions about this and am commiting a crime by metal detecting a bus stop if someone says I'm trespassing on their property?

AT Pro/GPP/Fiskars Diggers/BH Outback/CT Hand held

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Here's what you do: carry a sales book and pen with you--the vertical format kind that small businesses use, and do something like this: "So you are the homeowner here at this address?" Pull out the sales book, and flip it open and start filling in his info...."Well then you owe $x.00 for scrap metal removal from your sidewalk strip. You know the city requires you to maintain this area, and you have scrap metal in this strip. Here's how much the bill is for." --then hand him the sales receipt with however much you want to put on it. "Now, you don't have to pay anything now, it'll be included in your property tax." If he gets too upset, just point to a vehicle way in the distance and say, "smile, you're on candid camera!" Then pack up and leave.

HarveyH48 said:

" It's part of the right-of-way, not much we can do to keep people off it, in a legal sense. The city has the right, to do what they want with it, even pave over it, to widen the roadway.

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Exactly. In my town, the city occasionally cuts down big old diseased/unsafe trees in the treelawns and there is always a homeowner or two that tries to stop them. The city always wins.

GLASSHOPPER1955 said:

Exactly. In my town, the city occasionally cuts down big old diseased/unsafe trees in the treelawns and there is always a homeowner or two that tries to stop them. The city always wins.

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the right of way is not their property.. it belongs to whomever owns the road.

So if you see a tree that you like in the right of way in an "abandoned" area where noone state cares it can be yours

I know people that collect firewood in the right of ways, they are very useful and as long as it is done safely the state thanks you for making their job easier.


For metal detecting all you have to do is say your doing community service cleanup. I did this once on state land where there was lots of ammo shells next to the atv trail.. You would be surprised how many people offered to take the trash out for me (I kept the brass but everything else they took out, the brass went to the scrap yard)

Maybe take a needle with you and say that you found x amount of them already, that will make people thank you (and we all know that they are around)

Glennz said:

the right of way is not their property.. it belongs to whomever owns the road.

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Not quite... Right of way is also a type of easement. An easement is a clause written into a deed or granted by court. So it is actually a legal statement on a piece of land granting someone the right to travel over property owned by others who may or may not be the gov't. But it forces the owner to allow others certain types of use rights. Right of way being one type of easement. Utilities are another. But the property ownership is not defined by the right of way. It may or may not be owned by the municipality.

Hope it helps.

Best to smile, nod and walk on....leaving the best impression as an ambassador of our pass time Sarge. That said, what a numb nut. No harm should be the common sense rule. Reminds me of FL when I lived there. A ton of old retirees with nothing to do but grumble...I am getting there in years but will never be "that guy" in spirit.

PiNG

PS. LOVE that needle idea

Pin N Dig said:

Not quite... Right of way is also a type of easement. An easement is a clause written into a deed or granted by court. So it is actually a legal statement on a piece of land granting someone the right to travel over property owned by others who may or may not be the gov't. But it forces the owner to allow others certain types of use rights. Right of way being one type of easement. Utilities are another. But the property ownership is not defined by the right of way. It may or may not be owned by the municipality.
Hope it helps.

Best to smile, nod and walk on....leaving the best impression as an ambassador of our pass time Sarge. That said, what a numb nut. No harm should be the common sense rule. Reminds me of FL when I lived there. A ton of old retirees with nothing to do but grumble...I am getting there in years but will never be "that guy" in spirit.

PiNG

PS. LOVE that needle idea

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PIN,
Exactly, and I'll add that the old guy may or may not be the owner of the property either.

For all here on the forum that think they own the property from the center of the alley (or rear property line) to the center of the street (and yes they may own it), I suggest you pull out the survey that you should have received as part of your closing documents. The property boundaries (the lot) is shown along with the easements that have been granted (by previous owners or developers), locations of sidewalks, and even survey 'pins'. Sometimes, the County in which you reside may have subdivision plats available on line. These will also show property boundaries within the subdivision and whether those front boundaries extend to near the sidewalk or if they extent to the center of the street. And know this: this can vary from subdivision to subdivision within the same town.

Thanks for posting this Pin!

Whenever I hunt such a public place I wear a well worn fluorescent vest like those worn by municipal workers. I bought it and stenciled some letters on the back and then ran over it with my Jeep a couple of times to make it look old, dirty and worn. A hard hat would complete the ensemble but I can't bring myself to wear one.

First of all it makes sense to wear it when near traffic for safety reasons. Second, nobody pays attention to nor challenges municipal workers. Basically you're hiding in full view. It works.

Pin N Dig said:

Not quite... Right of way is also a type of easement. An easement is a clause written into a deed or granted by court. So it is actually a legal statement on a piece of land granting someone the right to travel over property owned by others who may or may not be the gov't. But it forces the owner to allow others certain types of use rights. Right of way being one type of easement. Utilities are another. But the property ownership is not defined by the right of way. It may or may not be owned by the municipality.

Hope it helps.

Best to smile, nod and walk on....leaving the best impression as an ambassador of our pass time Sarge. That said, what a numb nut. No harm should be the common sense rule. Reminds me of FL when I lived there. A ton of old retirees with nothing to do but grumble...I am getting there in years but will never be "that guy" in spirit.

PiNG

PS. LOVE that needle idea

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road right of way is not an easement.. private people don't own it. utility easements are land owned by the property owner granting use. It is a common misconception I know but a road ROW is not privately owned. a 25 ft road with a 50 ft right of way (from centerline) will have property corners 50 ft from centerline.. you don't own the road nor the road right of way.

Glennz said:

road right of way is not an easement.. private people don't own it. utility easements are land owned by the property owner granting use. It is a common misconception I know but a road ROW is not privately owned. a 25 ft road with a 50 ft right of way (from centerline) will have property corners 50 ft from centerline.. you don't own the road nor the road right of way.

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True True. I over simplified trying to make an example of the Difference. You got me.

Gonna have to proof read more round here...don't usually do thaat.....

Put legal ownership aside for a moment, and your legal entitlement to do whatever you want. The property owner has the legal responsibility to maintain that strip of grass, or face fines from code enforcement. The landowner must keep the grass cut, trash cleaned up. Some take that responsibility more serious than others. This is a hobby, and should be fun for everyone. We shouldn't be out there getting a lot of people upset over what we enjoy. I know, there are a few here, who seem to think that's the best part of metal detecting, exerting their legal rights, just as far as they can get away with, screw other people in the process, if possible. Upset people, aren't going to be friendly to the hobby, when it comes up for discussion, or a vote. It really doesn't take very long to hunt a section of curb strip. Some are productive, most don't have anything note worthy. It's okay to pass up a few, if it's going to keep the peace.

HarveyH48 said:

Put legal ownership aside for a moment, and your legal entitlement to do whatever you want. The property owner has the legal responsibility to maintain that strip of grass, or face fines from code enforcement. The landowner must keep the grass cut, trash cleaned up. Some take that responsibility more serious than others. This is a hobby, and should be fun for everyone. We shouldn't be out there getting a lot of people upset over what we enjoy. I know, there are a few here, who seem to think that's the best part of metal detecting, exerting their legal rights, just as far as they can get away with, screw other people in the process, if possible. Upset people, aren't going to be friendly to the hobby, when it comes up for discussion, or a vote. It really doesn't take very long to hunt a section of curb strip. Some are productive, most don't have anything note worthy. It's okay to pass up a few, if it's going to keep the peace.

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Harvey makes a good point. But I think ultimately what determines what is going to happen in the field isn't what is said here, but what the character of the detectorist is. If the person is a saint, they will attempt to make people happy by showing respect and concern for the resident or landowner, if they are a self-centered jerk, they won't.

I'm no saint, but I've got good enough sense not to aggitate complete strangers, while out in public. Someone buys property, because the plan on being there for a while. Upset people do the most talking. Stories usually grow, with every telling, you want to make it more interesting, and get others to the same level of emotional reaction, little embellishment helps get that done quicker, fewer words. You really aren't potentially messing with one homeowner, who might have a problem, but everyone he decides to share the experience with. You also really don't know who works at city hall, where they live, who their neighbors are. Truth is, how we interact with the rest of the public, while out hunting, will effect how long we keep our rights to hunt public places. Public, isn't just one person, it's the entire community, and the majority rules.

OleSarge said:

Is metal detecting the strip of dirt between the sidewalk and street, or the bus stops located therein, trespassing? Are there any opinions about this and am commiting a crime by metal detecting a bus stop if someone says I'm trespassing on their property?

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HarveyH48 said:

Put legal ownership aside for a moment, and your legal entitlement to do whatever you want. The property owner has the legal responsibility to maintain that strip of grass, or face fines from code enforcement. The landowner must keep the grass cut, trash cleaned up. Some take that responsibility more serious than others. This is a hobby, and should be fun for everyone. We shouldn't be out there getting a lot of people upset over what we enjoy. I know, there are a few here, who seem to think that's the best part of metal detecting, exerting their legal rights, just as far as they can get away with, screw other people in the process, if possible. Upset people, aren't going to be friendly to the hobby, when it comes up for discussion, or a vote. It really doesn't take very long to hunt a section of curb strip. Some are productive, most don't have anything note worthy. It's okay to pass up a few, if it's going to keep the peace.

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Crackerjack said:

Harvey makes a good point. But I think ultimately what determines what is going to happen in the field isn't what is said here, but what the character of the detectorist is. If the person is a saint, they will attempt to make people happy by showing respect and concern for the resident or landowner, if they are a self-centered jerk, they won't.

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Harv,
Why put the legal ownership aside when the OP asks about the legal issue of trespassing?

Unfortunately, I have to point out to Crackerjack that the good part of your message is drowned out by your continued admonishment of others here by innuendo and this is an excellent example: "I know, there are a few here, who seem to think that's the best part of metal detecting, exerting their legal rights, just as far as they can get away with, screw other people in the process, if possible." As long as you cast dispersions on other forum members, I'll continue to help explain how the legality of MDing is slowly being eroded away by those with a personal agenda.

You can take the 'legality of MDing' out of the discussions about a MDing legal issue, but the negative innuendoes toward others should also be taken out of the discussion.

mountain digger said:

Harv,
Why put the legal ownership aside when the OP asks about the legal issue of trespassing?

Unfortunately, I have to point out to Crackerjack that the good part of your message is drowned out by your continued admonishment of others here by innuendo and this is an excellent example: "I know, there are a few here, who seem to think that's the best part of metal detecting, exerting their legal rights, just as far as they can get away with, screw other people in the process, if possible." As long as you cast dispersions on other forum members, I'll continue to help explain how the legality of MDing is slowly being eroded away by those with a personal agenda.

You can take the 'legality of MDing' out of the discussions about a MDing legal issue, but the negative innuendoes toward others should also be taken out of the discussion.

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It's just semantics Mountain D. and Harv. Everyone reads the post with the flavor of their day in the background and picks opinion to focus on. Yeah the original question was about the legality..so legal terms fly. But then there's the buried treasure behind the conflict with the public about our role as ambassadors of our hobby. Folks here are concerned when reading that we as team got confronted and want to help the hobby. So they spin the conversation that direction.

...from what Ive seen we are all right as group... We need the right legal info and we need to remember that word. "Ambassador" when deciding our responses to the wienies confronting us.

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Out here in west Texas we have highways that cross open range land (unfenced but privately owned off the road right of way). I have hunted areas where old military trails cross these open range highways. It is trespassing to go past the markers shown on the photo and does not have to be posted.

Diggin,

Lets talk Texas. Effective notice MUST be given and it may come in different ways. It would be doubtful that any LEO in Texas would choose to bring trespassing charges unless they are relatively comfortable that effective notice was given in advance. Here is a TPWD link along with the criminal trespass statute in Texas. It discusses what constitutes effective notice. It also applies in West Texas . My apology in advance for this bit of humor. Here is the link should anyone wish to read more from the Texas Parks and Wildlife: http://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/trespass.phtml I will also add again that laws vary state to state.

Criminal Trespass

As part of the navigation right, one may use the bed and, to a limited degree, the banks of a navigable stream. However, the use of the private property adjacent to a stream can be a criminal trespass.

Under Texas Penal Code § 30.05 (see below), the definition of criminal trespass is more complex than the simple notion of being on someone else’s land. One way to commit the offense is to enter upon another’s property even though one has notice that the entry is forbidden. Another way is to remain on another’s property, refusing to leave after receiving notice to depart.

Notice can be given in any one of five forms. First, it can be an oral or written communication by the owner or someone acting for the owner. Second, it can be a fence or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock. Third, notice can be in the form of sign(s) posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to be noticed, indicating that entry is forbidden. Fourth, notice can be in the form of readily visible purple paint marks of proper size and placement on trees or posts spaced no more than 100 feet apart on forest land or 1,000 feet apart on non-forest land. Fifth, notice can be the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.

Criminal trespass is normally a Class B misdemeanor with a fine up to $2,000 and a jail term up to 180 days. If the trespass is on agricultural land, and the trespasser is apprehended within 100 feet of the boundary of the land, the offense is a Class C misdemeanor with a fine up to $500. Agricultural land is broadly defined and includes land suitable for growing plants (for food, feed, fiber, seed, etc.) or trees or for keeping farm or ranch animals. However, under certain conditions including if one has a deadly weapon on or about one’s person the offense is a Class A misdemeanor with a fine up to $4,000 and a jail term up to one year.


State Law

Penal Code § 30.05. Criminal Trespass.
(a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an aircraft or other vehicle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a building of another without effective consent and he:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so. (b) For purposes of this section:
(1) “Entry” means the intrusion of the entire body.
(2) “Notice” means:
(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
(D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
(i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
(ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and
(iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
(a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
(b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or
(E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.
(3) “Shelter center” has the meaning assigned by Section 51.002(1), Human Resources Code.
(4) “Forest land” means land on which the trees are potentially valuable for timber products.
(5) “Agricultural land” has the meaning assigned by Section 75.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code.
(6) “Superfund site” means a facility that:
(A) is on the National Priorities List established under Section 105 of the federal Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980 (42 U.S.C. Section 9605); or
(B) is listed on the state registry established under Section 361.181, Health and Safety Code.
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor at the time of the offense was a fire fighter or emergency medical services personnel, as that term is defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, acting in the lawful discharge of an official duty under exigent circumstances.
(d) An offense under Subsection (e) is a Class C misdemeanor unless it is committed in a habitation or unless the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about the actor’s person during the commission of the offense, in which event it is a Class A misdemeanor. An offense under Subsection (a) is a Class B misdemeanor, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if:
(1) the offense is committed:
(A) in a habitation or a shelter center; or
(B) on a Superfund site; or
(2) the actor carries a deadly weapon on or about his person during the commission of the offense.
(e) A person commits an offense if without express consent or if without authorization provided by any law, whether in writing or other form, the person:
(1) enters or remains on agricultural land of another;
(2) is on the agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land when apprehended; and
(3) had notice that the entry was forbidden or received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.