Friendly Metal Detecting Forums   Myers Depot Metal Detectors
List all sponsors

Go Back   Friendly Metal Detecting Forums > Detectors and Gear > All About Detectors

Reply
  
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-22-2020, 09:57 PM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default Apex Versus At Max

After listening to Steve Moore today, a person called into the show and asked how the Apex compared to his At Max and should he sell it and buy the Apex.

Steve said the Max would be a little sparkier and deeper than the Apex and did not recommend selling the Max , but rather a person might benefit from some of the Apex new features and have both for different circumstances.

I had wondered if the Apex would be as deep myself. I think where Minelab shot themselves in the foot, was making the Nox as deep if not deeper than the FBS machines. Would be interesting to see the sales of the CTX, Etrac, Safari since the release of the Nox.

Also he was asked exactly what Frequencies would be used when in Multi mode. He said that as of right now it has not been finalized and if he said it very well could change by release date.

I was a little disappointed it would not be as deep as the Max, but it left them the option to put out another machine at a higher tier, which i think we will see sometime in the near future.

I am still going to try the Apex as i have liked Garrett since the early eighties when i first started using them.

My prediction is the Apex bests the Vanquish. I am a huge Nox fan as a lot of you know, but i am not a huge fan of the Vanquish.
Reply With Quote


  #2  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:27 PM
jmaclen jmaclen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 472
Default

AT Max is a high gain detector with an excellent almost threshold based all metal mode which is going to be deeper than the APEX automatically since the Apex does not even have a threshold tone much less anything close to a classic all metal mode. Neither does the Equinox 800 even though the Gold modes are mixed modes but with more discrimination and filtering than the classic all metal mode.

Jeff

__________________
Minelab SDC 2300, Equinox 800/600, Vanquish 340, XP ORX, Tek G2+, Tek-Point, Garrett Carrot,

Reply With Quote


  #3  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:47 PM
woodbutcher's Avatar
woodbutcher woodbutcher is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Indiana county, Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,164
Default

To me there is depth and usable depth. Usable depth means I have a better than average idea of what's down there at 8 to 10 inches. Not many machines I can do that with , and my soil isn't that bad imo here in Pennsylvania.
Raw depth is just that, it'll hit a 8 to 10 inch coin but it's a pig in a poke as to what it is.Many machines will do that in my soil.
I didn't care for the audio on the at max, to busy for me.If the Apex will hit a honest 8 inch coin solid I think that's great. I like the audio on it from what little I heard, but that changes in the field .Im glad Garrett is headed in the right direction tho
Reply With Quote


  #4  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:53 PM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default

Originally Posted by jmaclen View post
AT Max is a high gain detector with an excellent almost threshold based all metal mode which is going to be deeper than the APEX automatically since the Apex does not even have a threshold tone much less anything close to a classic all metal mode. Neither does the Equinox 800 even though the Gold modes are mixed modes but with more discrimination and filtering than the classic all metal mode.

Jeff
He also said the Max has different audio system than the Apex. I don't ever hunt in all metal mode as the sites i search it's just not practical. But the 800 goes deeper in my soil than any other machine i have ever used, compared to all others i have used and some of those had all metal modes.
Reply With Quote


  #5  
Old 05-22-2020, 10:56 PM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default

Originally Posted by woodbutcher View post
To me there is depth and usable depth. Usable depth means I have a better than average idea of what's down there at 8 to 10 inches. Not many machines I can do that with , and my soil isn't that bad imo here in Pennsylvania.
Raw depth is just that, it'll hit a 8 to 10 inch coin but it's a pig in a poke as to what it is.Many machines will do that in my soil.
I didn't care for the audio on the at max, to busy for me.If the Apex will hit a honest 8 inch coin solid I think that's great. I like the audio on it from what little I heard, but that changes in the field .Im glad Garrett is headed in the right direction tho
That was one advantage that Steve said a lot of people would like, is the Apex's audio compared to the Max's , he even admitted with the iron volume turned on the Max, that he could only hunt so long without turning it off as it gave him a headache.
Reply With Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
  #6  
Old 05-22-2020, 11:16 PM
jmaclen jmaclen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 472
Default

Don't worry Trashfinder, I have the same experience as you. The dirt in my area is really bad and the Equinox goes deeper and detects accurately at those depths better than any single frequency detector I have tried whether I was using them in all metal mode or in a discrimination mode, with or without boosted audio, etc. It is not even close. I am like woody. I don't need pure raw depth. I need depth and accurate identification. I don't go metal detecting so I can blindly dig a deep hole with no clue what's in it. I prefer to know with at least 80% certainty what I may be digging=low, mid or high conductor, when the target is deep (past 8"). I sure hope Garrett's design engineers got it right with the APEX.

Jeff

__________________
Minelab SDC 2300, Equinox 800/600, Vanquish 340, XP ORX, Tek G2+, Tek-Point, Garrett Carrot,

Reply With Quote


  #7  
Old 05-23-2020, 06:06 AM
Harold,ILL. Harold,ILL. is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16
Default

What is he suppose to say it beats the top of line?
I would not read too much into that myself. The binary or modulated audio what sold me. Also the Nox at least in my ground can not I.D. at depth
on coins especially silver as as well as the Etrac. That is why most testers don't show the Nox numbers on deep coins as they just brag about it hitting a coin at 10" but the numbers are bouncing all over the place compare to the Etrac or Explorer guaranteed.

Last edited by Harold,ILL.; 05-23-2020 at 07:45 AM.
Reply With Quote


2 members found this post helpful.
  #8  
Old 05-23-2020, 07:59 AM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default

Originally Posted by Harold,ILL. View post
What is he suppose to say it beats the top of line?
I would read too much into that myself. The binary or modulated audio what sold me. Also the Nox at least in my ground can not I.D. at depth
on coins especially silver as as well as the Etrac. That is why most testers don't show the Nox numbers on deep coins as they just brag about it hitting a coin at 10" but the numbers are bouncing all over the place compare to the Etrac or Explorer guaranteed.
You may be right on the beating their top of the line, but he sounded pretty genuine that he did not think it would. Just thought it was interesting information.

My experience with the Nox versus my CTX and Etrac is pretty spot on to what you said,,, with exception, my Nox is jumpy on the 10-14 inch coins i have recovered with it so far, but i cannot get my CTX and Etrac to even alert on those same coins with 11 inch stock coils on all 3 machines. I still have my CTX and Etrac for only one reason. When i get into some of my empty lots where structures have been demolished and debris hauled off, the CTX and Etrac with Fe/Co can save me a ton of digging versus my Nox. Example: I recently worked a lot where my Nox was giving me Id's of 25-28 on many targets, they all turned out to be what i think are pieces of piston heads. After digging about 20 of them i put the Nox away and grabbed my Etrac. It was showing those same targets at 9-44 to 10-45. I quickly learned that and i did not have to dig all that junk for the rest of the hunt there. I did find some silver there but it came in on the 12 line like usual. If not for the Fbs i would have walked away from that site, anything but FBS there is futile. I tried my deus and Impact and F75 there also and they all were showing those targets as good.

For me, my CTX and Etrac are a much better choice in these situations.

Where my Nox shines is much older sites where i am mostly dealing with things like iron nails and such. I recovered recently from such a site close to 60 old coins with Nox where the shallowest target was 7 inches and most where 9 inches plus. I used my Etrac and CTX first there thinking i would do better, but after hours of hunting and finding only a couple of coins i pulled out the Nox and quickly started finding (jumpy ID targets) most of which turned out to be coins. These were recovered in Red Clay soil here and the CTX and Etrac just could not penetrate even on max sensitivity to see them.
Reply With Quote


  #9  
Old 05-23-2020, 11:17 AM
mh9162013 mh9162013 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: KY
Posts: 253
Default

Originally Posted by Trashfinder View post
After listening to Steve Moore today, a person called into the show and asked how the Apex compared to his At Max and should he sell it and buy the Apex.

Steve said the Max would be a little sparkier and deeper than the Apex and did not recommend selling the Max , but rather a person might benefit from some of the Apex new features and have both for different circumstances.

I had wondered if the Apex would be as deep myself. I think where Minelab shot themselves in the foot, was making the Nox as deep if not deeper than the FBS machines. Would be interesting to see the sales of the CTX, Etrac, Safari since the release of the Nox.

Also he was asked exactly what Frequencies would be used when in Multi mode. He said that as of right now it has not been finalized and if he said it very well could change by release date.

I was a little disappointed it would not be as deep as the Max, but it left them the option to put out another machine at a higher tier, which i think we will see sometime in the near future.

I am still going to try the Apex as i have liked Garrett since the early eighties when i first started using them.

My prediction is the Apex bests the Vanquish. I am a huge Nox fan as a lot of you know, but i am not a huge fan of the Vanquish.
Like others have mentioned/alluded to, there's a difference between theoretical depth and practical depth. From what I've heard consistently, the AT Max achieves greater depth by being more "chatter-y." I've taken this to be similar to camera manufacturers bragging about their camera's zoom ability, but much of the zooming ability comes from digital, as opposed to optical zoom. It's technically true, but it's misleading.

As for not selling the AT Max, what's he supposed to say? I'm not calling him a liar, and for the record, I don't think he was lying. But there's almost no way he's going to tell someone to sell the AT Max to get the Apex.

For one, this will cannibalize sales and it's just a dumb thing for a salesman to say. For two, there are things the AT Max can do that the Apex cannot. Going underwater is just one example. I also wouldn't be surprised if the AT Max might be able to handle relic hunting at least as well as the Apex.
Reply With Quote


  #10  
Old 05-23-2020, 03:45 PM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default

[QUOTE=mh9162013;3226112]Like others have mentioned/alluded to, there's a difference between theoretical depth and practical depth.

He did not elaborate on theoretical or practical, only that the Max would be deeper in his opinion. The whole post was just to put some more information out there for people to see. I am not bashing Garrett just putting out what i have learned so far as i am interested in the Apex, and actually already have the Apex on order. Interestingly so far mostly the only replies seem to be of a defensive nature,,, nobody is being attacked. I simply just like to talk about detecting and machines and spread what i believe are interesting information on the new Apex.

And as for the part about what did i expect him to say? Well maybe the truth?
Reply With Quote


  #11  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:04 PM
mh9162013 mh9162013 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: KY
Posts: 253
Default

[QUOTE=Trashfinder;3226170]
Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
Like others have mentioned/alluded to, there's a difference between theoretical depth and practical depth.

He did not elaborate on theoretical or practical, only that the Max would be deeper in his opinion. The whole post was just to put some more information out there for people to see. I am not bashing Garrett just putting out what i have learned so far as i am interested in the Apex, and actually already have the Apex on order. Interestingly so far mostly the only replies seem to be of a defensive nature,,, nobody is being attacked. I simply just like to talk about detecting and machines and spread what i believe are interesting information on the new Apex.

And as for the part about what did i expect him to say? Well maybe the truth?
From a salesperson or company representative? Not saying you're gonna get lies, but you have to take what they say with a grain of salt...or maybe a few shakes from the saltshaker.
Reply With Quote


  #12  
Old 05-23-2020, 04:59 PM
Harold,ILL. Harold,ILL. is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16
Default

What is Nice is you can run the Apex in a lower kHz like 5 and be a little hotter on silver than the Max or Pro.
Reply With Quote


  #13  
Old 05-24-2020, 08:12 AM
Trashfinder's Avatar
Trashfinder Trashfinder is offline
Supporter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ardmore, OK
Posts: 1,100
Default

Originally Posted by Harold,ILL. View post
What is Nice is you can run the Apex in a lower kHz like 5 and be a little hotter on silver than the Max or Pro.
Being able to select the 5 might actually make the Apex a bit deeper than the Max or Pro since the lower freq get better depth. But at least on my Nox 800 getting false iron targets went up substantially when in single lower Freq. Some were so deep that when i switched back to multi i lost the target altogether.
Reply With Quote


Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.