Warning!! All e-trac users danger!!

That goes with any machine,when you run disc you lose targets from masking,..That's something about losing depth,most modern single frequency machines lose no depth when using discrimination, but etracs do huh?Good to know.

woodbutcher said:

That goes with any machine,when you run disc you lose targets from masking,..That's something about losing depth,most modern single frequency machines lose no depth when using discrimination, but etracs do huh?Good to know.

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Yes Etracs do lose a significant amount of depth when discriminating heavy.

(Actually all of my previous machines were deeper without disc, though I haven't tried them all. I would be interested in specific models that retain their depth while running disc.)

Now I'm not just blowing hot air, a fellow named "Johnnyanglo" complied the data to see what the losses are.

From dankowskidetectors.com:

"For those who use the E-Trac and like to heavily discriminate out possible targets . . .

Testing = Air tested, two-way repeatable signal, 11" DD coil.
Heavy DISC = SmartFind screen all Black (DISC) except about 10 pixels
Light DISC = SmartFind screen all White (open) except about 10 pixels

................................Heavy DISC..................................Light DISC
....................AUTO+3 ....... MAN-30 ..................AUTO+3 ....... MAN-30
Dime ...............6.5" ..............8.0" ......................... 7.5" ................10.5"
Penny .............7.0" ..............8.5" ...........................8.5" ...............12.0"
Nickel .............7.0" ...............7.5" ..........................8.5" ................11.5"
Quarter ...........7.0" ..............9.0" ...........................9.0" ................12.5"

Depth increases as compared to using the Heavy-DISC with AUTO+3.
................................Heavy DISC..................................Light DISC
....................AUTO+3 ....... MAN-30 ..................AUTO+3 ....... MAN-30
Dime ...............6.5" ..............123% ....................... 115% ............162%
Penny .............7.0" ..............121% ........................121% ............171%
Nickel .............7.0" ...............107% ........................121% ...........164%
Quarter ...........7.0" ..............129%" .......................129% ............179%

Upshot: Using too much DISC will harm the depth targets can be acquired. Switching from heavy to very little DISC can boost depth by as much an average of 22% in AUTO+3 and 41% in MAN-30. That is, keeping all things equal (other settings) radically reducing DISC on your SmartFind screen can increase useable depth by 1/5 to 2/5 more over a heavy DISC AUTO+3 screen. This is just by changing DISC amount, not changing Sensitivity settings.

Even better is switching from AUTO+3 to MAN-30 and dropping heavy DISC to very light DISC. In this case you'd improve your useable depth by an average of 69% or to say it differently -- such a change would permit more than a 2/3 greater useable depth on the E-Trac.

Some food for thought. " - Johnnyanglo

As someone who has personally used the high trash park pattern, and still do, I can say BS. I have tested many many targets with a wide open pattern vs this restricted pattern and there was no difference in depth. Not sure where you got this info but I call BS. I use the pattern almost exclusively now and compare each signal in a quick mask open pattern and it sounds better in the tight pattern.

Sorry, not buying it!

Now masking is a different subject.

Detector said:

As someone who has personally used the high trash park pattern, and still do, I can say BS. I have tested many many targets with a wide open pattern vs this restricted pattern and there was no difference in depth. Not sure where you got this info but I call BS. I use the pattern almost exclusively now and compare each signal in a quick mask open pattern and it sounds better in the tight pattern.

Sorry, not buying it!

Now masking is a different subject.

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Well the nice thing is, all the information is above you, you can verify it yourself as I have, it's accurate.

Folks I thought it was common knowledge that all machines loose depth with increased discrimination?

Your field testing methodology seems flawed because you have little to no control over depth of targets?

I did mention above were I got this information, from dankowski's forum.

ATBro said:

Well the nice thing is, all the information is above you, you can verify it yourself as I have, it's accurate.

Folks I thought it was common knowledge that all machines loose depth with increased discrimination?

Your field testing methodology seems flawed because you have little to no control over depth of targets?

I did mention above were I got this information, from dankowski's forum.

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I learned this early on by doing a lot of reading about different detectors, when shopping for my first detector. It is good advice.

ATBro said:

Well the nice thing is, all the information is above you, you can verify it yourself as I have, it's accurate.

Folks I thought it was common knowledge that all machines loose depth with increased discrimination?

Your field testing methodology seems flawed because you have little to no control over depth of targets?

I did mention above were I got this information, from dankowski's forum.

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Yes you got it off his forum and you have ONE person's experience with AIR testing. And it is probably VALID as valid as AIR testing is.

HOWEVER, the NEW people find a lot of tones intimidating. Trying a program that for sure gets very deep silver and getting rid of the fake iron tones never hurt anyone. It is a VERY STABLE and easy to use program.

Stay with it?? Maybe not. BUT use it until you get more comfortable with the machine and enjoy your machine more. That was ALL I was trying to say to help people who are intimidated with the sounds.

Sure after you master it more, go back with the machine wide open if you want.

I have pulled silver dimes over 12" deep with it. I am quite satisfied. Other results will vary. WAY too many variables. I relate MY experience and try to help. Others can try my advice or not it is up to them.

I only give advice to people that feel intimidated by the E-Trac. I TRIED to give them a program that many many users have tried and liked.

You just make a post to tell them NOT to without giving them an alternative program to help them make it easier. Which post is more informative for new hunters?

Well , I'm not trying to discredit you and your beliefs , but I believe what Scuba is saying is to help new Etrac users learn their machine . So , I for one am going to try and load this program , because I can use all the help I can get . And as I've been on this forum for 5 years or so , Scuba has been here that or longer and I have found all of Scuba's post to be legitimately , friendly , helpful , informative , and enjoyable . I mean look at it like this , some of detect to get away from people , for peace and quiet . Some of us find that , some don't . Scuba has taken that a step further , by diving to the bottom of that lake or ocean . You don't have to worry about to many people bugging you down there . All I need Is the time to go detecting .

I Don't

Even mess with programming, just punch my own in , which i usually set to conditions, I usually start wide open screen, than add a little disc if needed only, I hunt the tones & number's with the E-trac, it's a nice machine hunting tones in pitch mode & number's , my go to machine, love the E-trac , Earl

Bill_Ace_350 said:

I learned this early on by doing a lot of reading about different detectors, when shopping for my first detector. It is good advice.

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Thanks Bill.

hawgdawg said:

Well , I'm not trying to discredit you and your beliefs , but I believe what Scuba is saying is to help new Etrac users learn their machine . So , I for one am going to try and load this program , because I can use all the help I can get . And as I've been on this forum for 5 years or so , Scuba has been here that or longer and I have found all of Scuba's post to be legitimately , friendly , helpful , informative , and enjoyable . I mean look at it like this , some of detect to get away from people , for peace and quiet . Some of us find that , some don't . Scuba has taken that a step further , by diving to the bottom of that lake or ocean . You don't have to worry about to many people bugging you down there . All I need Is the time to go detecting .

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I suppose this is taken somewhat out of context, this was the additional information that I added in Scubadetectors thread that was deleted.

It was never contested that a coin or park mode was good for a newbie for a few days. I agree with that.

What was contested is using heavy discrimination everyday when experienced, saying it's all you need.

Surf Master said:

Even mess with programming, just punch my own in , which i usually set to conditions, I usually start wide open screen, than add a little disc if needed only, I hunt the tones & number's with the E-trac, it's a nice machine hunting tones in pitch mode & number's , my go to machine, love the E-trac , Earl

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+1

Detector said:

As someone who has personally used the high trash park pattern, and still do, I can say BS. I have tested many many targets with a wide open pattern vs this restricted pattern and there was no difference in depth. Not sure where you got this info but I call BS. I use the pattern almost exclusively now and compare each signal in a quick mask open pattern and it sounds better in the tight pattern.

Sorry, not buying it!

Now masking is a different subject.

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Well is there anything such as bs to the bs here... I think so.
Detector, sir--- I disagree here with you.


Why does the etrac have a quick mask feature screen to begin with???

Granted the etrac does perform well with TID at depth in more mineralized soil
But it is the conductive ###s that remain stable/ more consistent/truer

Disc on the etrac deals with ferrous as well as conductive discrimination.

And even in milder soil--- as the distance grows between the coil and say a 9" deep dime---- this mineral level is added
Hence on deeper targets-- ferrous number not as ideal-- not 12 many times

Now a person can also go to Mr Sabisch's Minelab book
I had one at one time
Go and read where he says it is possible for a good nonferrous target to report as high as 27 ferrous

And I indeed have witnessed the same on a few targets- not all

And using 2 tone ferrous on etrac--- granted you can even run a wide open screen using it--- but it is very possible for a deep/ deeper target to give LOW tone--- not the diggable HIGH tone

So yes a person needs to open up their ferrous disc or they indeed are at risk of missing targets

And yes running tight conductive disc- the same but IMO not as critical per se as running a lot of ferrous disc.

Even considering the CTX--- what is the difference between ground coin and ferrous coin???? Ferrous coin is using more filter-- ferrous numbers usually more stable

But in the CTX manual-- ground coin for higher mineralized soil-- hence an op likely to see a larger window of ferrous numbers displayed on nonferrous targets
It can be deeper than ferrous coin due to the lesser filtering

This filtering or lack of is one reason the XS explorer is actually deeper than etrac--- when each is fitted with same coil
And there is plenty of post/info around to support this
If no one wants to take my word for it.

Now a person can run any amount of disc they want in whatever detecting site they want.

But granted the Etracs, or minelabs for that matter do use a different techs of sorts bbs, fbs---- they also are affected depth wise when employing discrimination

And this difference can vary depending on soil minerals and the site in general.

And to not talk about masking here, or try and convince folks it's totally different is flat wrong too.

A nail beside a deep dime for example can many times drive the ferrous number nuts.

And remember it is the first pass of the coil--this is generally what counts.
If you have your detector setup where it in fact can't alert a user to a target-- one will keep walking.

Take a deeper target-- can both the ferrous number and conductive number vary-- depending on coil position on a deeper target
Sure when ideally centered this is where the conductive number likely the most accurate--- but do we always flush a target with our coil every time???

And consider a hard hunted park.
Would it be fair to say, whatever good targets I.e. High conductors are left, they likely if detectable to NOT be textbook hits

Maybe the reason the good deep dime is still there is because most folks went in with their detectors primarily setup up to only detect the deeper/masked coins with too much discrimination--- and they never hear them.

Detector, your comment suggests etrac's tone produced is divorced from the way the screen is setup-- don't think so.

Based solely on my experiences, for example running a lot of ferrous disc in lower mineral soil-- very possible to miss a deeper dime with nail close by.
And in higher mineral ground easier to miss to deeper dime with no other ferrous item nearby.

I guess it would be fair to say--- you seem to think all detectable depth coins etrac is capable of detecting, can be detected using stock coin pattern???
Don't think so
Life is short play hard.

Btw
Here is a good read.
http://www.metaldetectingworld.com/metal_detector_sensitivity_depth.shtml
Cheers

Funny thing to have someone trying to hand out expert opinion on an etrac, while having a name ATbro....

<°)))>{

Now don't tell me I'm going to have to shoot a video to show no loss in depth.....

Detector said:

Now don't tell me I'm going to have to shoot a video to show no loss in depth.....

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Well the milder the soil-- sure the noted differences may not be as much.

I have mostly 4 bar indicated on the F75 soil here.

Many deep dimes have flashed in with 23-25 ferrous in the screen.
I have played with a few of them by lowering discrimination

All I can say-- it is a NO NO

No No, now the numbers are right above me LOL.

I'm going to shoot a video and show a coin at the very limit of the E-Trac in a wide open pattern and then hit that same coin using the heavy park trash pattern I use as my standard search pattern. We'll let the viewers decide for themselves.

I have always felt better watching proof rather than being told. It lets each person decide for themselves what they believe.

Well the milder the soil-- sure the noted differences may not be as much.

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Now there you're talking masking not depth. I'm saying the E-Trac will hit the same depth on a coin in either heavy discrimination or open pattern. It has nothing to do with masking due to trash or heavy mineralization. There is a difference. If a detector can hit a coin at 8" with no discrimination and also hit it at 8" with discrimination that means discrimination has no effect on depth. If you then introduce trash or mineralization and there is a difference than it is a masking issue due to being discriminated. That I agreed with and stated above. But discrimination by itself does not effect depth.

Try it yourself. Air test a coin with both open and heavy discrimination and you'll see it has the same depth ability. If so, then depth IS NOT effected by discrimination.

Well,
Why did Minelab make the ferrous disc adjustable in the first place??

I mean why not have it locked in place--- if adjusting it has no effects.

So the minelabs when using discrimination--- depth not effected whatsoever??

This is what you are saying????

And why the comment in Mr Sabisch's book???

Discrimination is indeed filtering--- no matter how you slice it and dice it.

So you are saying any and all good deep targets ( nonferrous) that are discovered using open screen--- can be heard every time as well with every bit as good a tone quality vs sweeping them with a tight disc pattern???

Now to discover a good target using a tight disc pattern, and then flipping to open quick mask and listening--- not a true test...

Detector said:

No No, now the numbers are right above me LOL.

I'm going to shoot a video and show a coin at the very limit of the E-Trac in a wide open pattern and then hit that same coin using the heavy park trash pattern I use as my standard search pattern. We'll let the viewers decide for themselves.

I have always felt better watching proof rather than being told. It lets each person decide for themselves what they believe.

Now there you're talking masking not depth. I'm saying the E-Trac will hit the same depth on a coin in either heavy discrimination or open pattern. It has nothing to do with masking due to trash or heavy mineralization. There is a difference. If a detector can hit a coin at 8" with no discrimination and also hit it at 8" with discrimination that means discrimination has no effect on depth. If you then introduce trash or mineralization and there is a difference than it is a masking issue due to being discriminated. That I agreed with and stated above. But discrimination by itself does not effect depth.

Try it yourself. Air test a coin with both open and heavy discrimination and you'll see it has the same depth ability. If so, then depth IS NOT effected by discrimination.

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I don't think folks really give a hoot about airtest depth.

It is in-ground depth that matters.

You seem to be trying to use semantics to prove your point.. Why???

Using discrimination and the varying levels of can indeed affect in ground depth.
And this is connected with ground minerals.
This is what folks need to be made aware of.

Here is a link with airtest conducted with discrimination altered.

http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,38452,38475

Btw have you seen the airtest numbers on a White's V3i with the 13" detech coil.
They are through the roof
Now go out and try to find a coin even close to that airtest distance..
It won't happen--- not around here
Done seen one in action.

Using discrimination and the varying levels of can indeed affect in ground depth.

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Agreed, but only when another factor is introduced! But discrimination alone does not. <- my point. If it did then is would also effect it in an air test. To say discrimination in heavy trash or mineralization effects depth is a fact. To say discrimination effects depth is not. It depends on other factors.

I didn't say anything more than discrimination does not effect depth and it doesn't. Other factors changes the whole equation and cannot be accurately measured because those factors, such as trash and mineralization, are an ever changing factor so it cannot be reliably measured to be expect the same outcome for all users.

The truth would be to state discrimination CAN effect depth depending on other factors. It may not. So the blanket statement is inaccurate. I know I'm just nit picking... It's Friday!

I think is would be very practical and smart here.

When folks are talking about metal detectors along with their performance and settings to talk about them as they relate to actual use

Meaning while sweeping the coil over the ground.

Granted there are some test that can be done to maybe show how a detector stacks up when compared to other detectors in the separation and unmasking departments-- but even these are not truly ideal.

But as long as a person who is talking about such tests disclaims they are on top of the ground test--- no misleading is being done.

Airtest in my opinion are only good to draw a baseline of sorts, so an op can later do them to indeed check their detector's operation-- to maybe prove no defects -- and even doing this is not foolproof.

Remember more folks read our post/ threads than we realize.
Many folks with many levels of understanding and experience.
So we must be careful with what we post.
I know I sure don't want to mislead anyone here who reads.