Scram / Boot = constitutes "law" from then on out ?

About 20-ish years ago, a buddy and I were traveling across CA, on a long road trip. We stopped in a certain town, that's about 1.5 hrs. from me. Because it has a certain park that I like to hit, whenever I'm in that part of the state. It's given up scores of barbers, etc.... to us , since as far back as the late 1970s/early 1980s.

But on this particular visit, about 2 hrs. into our hunt, a lady cop came waltzing out across the grass. She gave us the stink-eye and a "scram". With some chastising words, took our names, blah blah. We didn't argue with her. As it turns out, we were just preparing to leave anyhow. So we gave lip service and left.

About 2 months later, I coincidentally began to correspond with a hunter in that particular city. Via meeting each other via forum-PM's (realizing we were only 1.5 hr. apart). As this new friend and I exchanged chat about various relicky site pursuits in our part of the state, I turned the conversation toward the downtown park in his city. Telling him of our recent experience of having been booted by the cop. Asking if he knew anything about it.

He was a little taken back by the information, because he, and others in his town, had routinely hunted there for years, by then. And never had any problems (that he knew of). And he told me that his wife's family had someone who had something to do with city hall (council-member ? or something like that). And he was therefore going to put that family member up-to-the-task of "getting this clarified" at city hall. So that we could get confirmation that md'ing wasn't disallowed there.

But I discouraged my new friend from doing that. Worried that it might just "open a can of worms". Instead, I suggested we just "let it blow over" and probably nothing would ever become of it. My friend agreed. But .... you can bet ... the next time he was hunting that park, he was no doubt a little skittish, based on my cop-encounter story. So you can bet he was probably subconsciously keeping an eye out. Eh ? As it turns out, no one ever said so much as "boo" to him (despite being alongside busy downtown streets). After a few more hunts, he simply forgot about this. And .... things, to him, were totally normal. He related to me that no one paid him any mind.

~6 months later, I find myself in that part of the state. Decided to stop by the park. But .... a little leery to make sure I'm not "sticking out like a sore thumb". Out of the corner of my eye, I even see occasional cop cars pass by (d/t it's only a block away from the police station). No one ever stops. No one ever says anything. Thus .... eventually ... I too forget any premonitions or cautions. And .... it's back-to-normal.

And here we are .... 20 yrs. later, and I have hunted that parks a dozen or so more times, no problem.

Point being therefore : Does something like this example show that not-all "scrams" or "bootings" necessarily constitute gospel law, from then-on-out ? Can some of them just be someone having a bad hair day, or a cop who perhaps got called by a "lookie-lou" and just has to justify their call out ?

I see your points. Here is a spin off question concerning looky-lous though. Cops and park personnel drive by me all the time, and many times, wave "hello" and sometimes even stop and shoot the bull about the hobby. THEN, some citizen makes a call, and the cops or park official, give me the scoot routine. It may be easier but it is just wrong.

Where did that easy-going demeanor go with the officials, just because some lifeless looky-lou dial their phone to complain? IMO, my civil rights are ignored if the cops don't correctly end up saying, "I had to respond after the call, but you aren't doing anything illegal, have a great day!" Seriously, after 55 years of me paying taxes into the system, retiring, now it seems that about anybody with a phone, regardless of their tenure or even their legal status, can upset my day, and the cops/officials either suggest I leave and come back later, or sternly run my butt off?

Sorry if this is maybe thread cr@pping. It is sad that my gray hair and just wanting a leisurely hobby in enjoying nature in a public park, paid for with my tax dollars, is trumped by who know who, with a cell phone.

Martin_V3i said:

... just because some lifeless looky-lou dial their phone to complain? IMO, my civil rights are ignored if the cops don't correctly end up saying, "I had to respond after the call, but you aren't doing anything illegal, have a great day!" .....

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Martin, I feel your pain Some observations :

a) There's been many forum accounts of exactly what you describe : Where a cop comes out to quiz an md'r. Tells the md'r "we had a complaint call". But the cop tells the md'r "I don't see that you're doing anything wrong. So carry on..." HOWEVER ....

b) Other times.... they just make it easy and "scram" you. While I know that sounds arbitrary and capricious, yet ... put yourself in the cop's shoes: Not only does he want to please you, but ... he also wants to please "miss lookie-lou". And as said, ... let's be perfectly honest : Our hobby has connotations Ie.: that you might be about to (gasp) "dig" or "take things".

c) One time, I was getting "scrammed" by a cop. But ... after some casual conversation , he confided in me that a certain griper, whose 3rd story apartment window overlooks the corner of the park I was at, feels that it is their self-appointed job to be the "park monitor" (apparently they get frequent calls from this person, anytime the person thinks something is amiss @ this corner). So the cop tells me, with a wink-wink: "Just go to the other end of the park, where she can't see you.

d) the point of (c) above, is to show that .... had it not been for the casual conversation with the cop (ie.: If I had just immediately tucked my tail and ran), I could have incorrectly assumed "oh no ! the park is off-limits" . Or "oh no, I must go to city hall and fight this new rule and seek clarification", blah blah.

So when I sometimes read on a forum, where someone will come on announcing that "such & such city parks is not allowed", I have often times said "How do you know that ?" And a surprising # of times, the person responds with "Because I got booted", or "because a buddy of mine got kicked out and warned", etc... In other words, they saw it as "gospel law" going forward. When perhaps, it was just a fluke.

To me : It can sometimes mean: Give the place a little rest, and : Just avoid that singular griper in the future.

Actually I have never been told to scram or given the boot officially. However, a couple times I have been passively aggressively approached by parks employees in vehicles who will sit and watch me like a hawk. After about 5 minutes or so I packed my stuff and left. No sense in rocking the boat. The way I see it any negative interaction with parks employees can only lead to restrictions in the future.

Detectingman said:

... After about 5 minutes or so I packed my stuff and left. No sense in rocking the boat. ...

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Ditto. If I see that I'm being scrutinized, that is not the time to chase an 8" or 9" deep coin in nicely manicured turf. I'll only pop a surface coin if someone is "watching like a hawk".

Does that mean I think I'm "doing something wrong" ? No. It's just that it beats the heck out of thinking I'm going to "convert them". It's sometimes better just to be "out of sight" and thus "out of mind". What they don't see, won't hurt them.

Tom_in_CA said:

In my over-40-yrs. of md'ing, I have been, and heard of others, sometimes booted or scrammed from parks. Because .... let's be perfectly honest .... our hobby carries connotations . Ie.: that we might be about to leave a hole, blah blah. Yet at the cities/parks in question, there might not be any specific law/rule that says specifically "No md'ing".

I don't dispute that the 'powers-that-be' have the latitude to interpret the dreaded "alter" "deface" "dig" verbiage to apply to us. We can certainly debate them, but .... will risk being on the loosing end of that debate. Eh ?

So the question I have for you fellow forumites : After you've given-lip-service to the griper, and ... of course .... given the place a "rest" : Do you consider the scram or booting to constitute a "law" or "rule" from then-on-out ? And if so, does it only apply to you ? Or also to other md'rs in that geographic locale ? (eg.: You tell them "that park is off-limits", blah blah).

Consider the following true story, to gauge your answer :

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If I am told to scram, I scram. I then go check local ordinace and if there is no mention of metal detecting, I go back at my own leisure. In the end, local politicans, town clerks, municipal employees, etc cannot create laws by fiat. If there is no law, I will continue returning until there is a law. However, I will give it a week or so between scrams. I don't want to seem a pest.

I got a scram once in a little park in a town next door. Thing that makes it hard to go back later is that the park is in eyesight of the little police station.

I had a deep signal already dug but not retrieved when the law walked up. I gave in without as much as a request on my part to get the trash or treasure out if that already open hole. A friend of mine suggested that I shoulda asked. An old one room school house used to be there. I could re-find that signal but....I think I will leave that one.

Nice enough cop though. They had recently re sodded an area there but not where I was at.

Detectingman said:

Actually I have never been told to scram or given the boot officially. However, a couple times I have been passively aggressively approached by parks employees in vehicles who will sit and watch me like a hawk. After about 5 minutes or so I packed my stuff and left. No sense in rocking the boat. The way I see it any negative interaction with parks employees can only lead to restrictions in the future.

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That's when you walk over to them and ask "Excuse me, where's the nearest garbage can located? I need to throw away all the trash I've picked up so far today." Or, if there's one nearby, just go dump it and make a big show.

Some parks people are unaware of the rules or lack of rules. When I first started I spoke with a detectorist that was kicked out of the local park. First time I hunted the park that was in the back of my mind when a Park officer pulled up to me. I thought I was getting booted. He just asked to make sure I cover my holes.

Unless I see a sign like the one on my avatar......I'll be hunting there.

I have a park in a neighboring town, scratch that, its not even a park, more like a small common. Every time I hunt it, within 30 mins or so I have a woman screaming at me telling me "this is a park, you cant do that here!". She was even taking pictures of my license plate last time I went there of course the police show up and say I'm not doing anything wrong, but need to leave anyways the dispatcher at the police station tells me I should ask the selectmen of the town for permission(though I don't NEED permission, there are no by-laws prohibiting metal detecting in this town), and have something in writing for when she shows up. She is the type that just goes 0-60 in seconds flat, she just screams and yells, there's no talking to her. I haven't been back since, but I pass the area quite frequently and wonder what could be left in there. Last time there I got a nickel trifecta and lots of wheat cents. I'm pretty sure she stands in her kitchen window all day waiting for me to come back I try detecting there every few years hoping she has moved (or some other natural events ) no luck yet. Ill be back out there eventually though I think the weirdest part of it all, is there's a small little league field adjacent to this common, it held small carnivals and what not right around the turn of the century, and I have hunted this place HARD, but she has never come over there

CarsonChris said:

.... When I first started I spoke with a detectorist that was kicked out of the local park. First time I hunted the park that was in the back of my mind when a Park officer pulled up to me. I thought I was getting booted. He just asked to make sure I cover my holes.

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Well this is an example of how not all "scrams" (aka: "kicked out") necessarily mean "off-limits". As your case shows : The next passing authority is ok with it (as long as you don't leave marks). That just goes to show the whimsical nature of this, and why I don't consider each individual booting to mean that a place is necessarily off-limits now.

Naturally, it's on a case-by-case "feel" basis.

cellrdwellr said:

.... she just screams and yells, there's no talking to her. I haven't been back since, but I pass the area quite frequently and wonder what could be left in there. ....

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In cases like that (if I suspect more old silver), I will simply come back when that singular "miss-lookie-lou" isn't around. Certainly she has to go to sleep at night, eh ? If so, then what's wrong with 2am ? So peaceful. So serene.

Some people might call that "sneaking around". Ok, fine then: Sneak around, eh ?

Learning how to avoid "The Scram" is a worthwhile subject! It encompasses 'evade and avoid' tactics and techniques that are generally only taught to the upper echelon of the Military.....We can adopt and apply this kind of training! The key point being A guy has to be sensitive about Humans and Timing...Becoming Invisible...

Thats really the key to living an unobstructed happy Life...Evade and Avoid and a sense of Timing...One reason I really like this Sport is the practice it affords regarding honing this important skill of being completely invisible!...

If you pay attention and hone it well enough, You can walk into and hunt any damn place you darn well please without getting "The Scram" ...consider yourself on the level of being an Army Ranger or Navy Seal, or a Ghost!...

Hunt Gettysburg or the Rose Garden...NBD....Getting scrammed off a schoolyard totter or an active soccerfield or a public park exhibits a lack of knowledge about Humans and a lack of 'not being seen' by them... practice....

When you can walk into a Waffle House, sit down at the counter, and not get noticed or greeted by the waitresses, when you can go to a Tupperware Party and not win a door prize, when you can attend a Family reunion and your own Parents ask, 'who da hell are you?......Yeah! ..You made it into invisibleness! Gettysburg!!

Avoiding the noticing of 'Old Wimmen' is tough! ...I try to look like an amorphous 'lectric powered weed whacker city guy...I wear muted colors..baggy khakis and checkittyasst flannel shirts..Old Wimmen are familiar with this visual presentation and consider it harmless.....I'm so good at being invisible, My own Wife thinks She's a Widow!... I Hope this helps...

Mud-puppy said:

.......Evade and Avoid and a sense of Timing.......

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Not unlike nose-picking. Choosing discreet timing, Eh ? Not that it's illegal, Nor needs permission, but .... just .... don't want to offend the squeemish. Right ?

But ... seriously now ... : The way our demeanor is has 99% to do with it. When/if you're at a nice-manicured park turf, and if you display a body-language of "worry", then passing people will pick up on those vibes. Eg.: If you subconsciously stare at the passing cop car at the end of the street, and he subconsciously sees you looking at him (with the "oh no, does he see me?" persona), then sure enough: The passing authority picks up on that body language. And they ask themselves: "Gee, what's that guy doing ?" And "Gee, is that allowed?" etc....

For example: Here is CA, the drink age, for ability to enter a bar, is 21 yr. old. Yet I knew a guy who, ... at 19 to 20-ish yrs. old, could get into ANY BAR IN TOWN. At first, I challenged his claim. But he insisted. So I assumed he must have fake-ID, eh ? (a popular tactic when I was in high school). But he assured me he had no fake ID. Oddly, the fellow didn't even LOOK a day over 20 yrs. old either. But he persisted in his claim.

So I asked him "Ok, then how do you do it ? CERTAINLY the bouncer at the door is going to card you , and toss you out on your ear, eh ?". But he stuck to his story. He then told me the secret : "Act like you own the place"

Because he'd figured out that the only people that the bouncers card, are people who are being evasive, and making a wide berth-skirt around the bouncer. Or who eyes them nervously. Or avoid eye-contact, etc.... So instead, my friend would walk right up to the bouncers at the doors, with an ear to ear grin, and say "Hi, how ya doing ??" and shake the bouncer's hand. And then ... walk right in . He never got carded.

Eg.: "hiding in plain site". Kind of like picking up on women : It's something you just can't put into a formula of "canned lines" and feigned character, etc....

Tom_in_CA said:

Not unlike nose-picking. Choosing discreet timing, Eh ? Not that it's illegal, Nor needs permission, but .... just .... don't want to offend the squeemish. Right ?



But ... seriously now ... : The way our demeanor is has 99% to do with it. When/if you're at a nice-manicured park turf, and if you display a body-language of "worry", then passing people will pick up on those vibes. Eg.: If you subconsciously stare at the passing cop car at the end of the street, and he subconsciously sees you looking at him (with the "oh no, does he see me?" persona), then sure enough: The passing authority picks up on that body language. And they ask themselves: "Gee, what's that guy doing ?" And "Gee, is that allowed?" etc....



For example: Here is CA, the drink age, for ability to enter a bar, is 21 yr. old. Yet I knew a guy who, ... at 19 to 20-ish yrs. old, could get into ANY BAR IN TOWN. At first, I challenged his claim. But he insisted. So I assumed he must have fake-ID, eh ? (a popular tactic when I was in high school). But he assured me he had no fake ID. Oddly, the fellow didn't even LOOK a day over 20 yrs. old either. But he persisted in his claim.



So I asked him "Ok, then how do you do it ? CERTAINLY the bouncer at the door is going to card you , and toss you out on your ear, eh ?". But he stuck to his story. He then told me the secret : "Act like you own the place"



Because he'd figured out that the only people that the bouncers card, are people who are being evasive, and making a wide berth-skirt around the bouncer. Or who eyes them nervously. Or avoid eye-contact, etc.... So instead, my friend would walk right up to the bouncers at the doors, with an ear to ear grin, and say "Hi, how ya doing ??" and shake the bouncer's hand. And then ... walk right in . He never got carded.



Eg.: "hiding in plain site". Kind of like picking up on women : It's something you just can't put into a formula of "canned lines" and feigned character, etc....

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That’s true, I used to buy cigarettes when I was 15 and got into bars at 17... first time I got id’d was when I turned 21 lol I always looked older than I was and had a beard.


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If there's nothing in writing stating you can't and they try to intimidate you to not metal detect, that is a betrayal of their oath to protect the Constitution and is tyrannical.

nostalgia083 said:

If there's nothing in writing stating you can't and they try to intimidate you to not metal detect, that is a betrayal of their oath to protect the Constitution and is tyrannical.

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Except, metal detecting often fall into--at a minimum--a grey area about digging or damaging vegetation. The people in charge ARE given the authority to make judgement calls. Perhaps the people running that park don't feel that somebody popping coins with a screwdriver is in violation, but somebody dragging a shovel around a park with a lot of underground irrigation and drainage systems is in violation.

In most places it wouldn't take anything more than a few keystrokes and updated webpage to put something in writing. Arguing on the spot about the Constitution and how much we pay in taxes isn't going to go anywhere. Refuse to leave? No cop will take your side over any park employee making a judgement call.

We want to project a positive, friendly image of metal detecting. So, we need to play nice, and then decide to follow up or not with somebody that has some authority. Or, review their rules again, and then decide to go back or not.

When it comes to the cops or the park employees, being assertive/rude never works and being "nice" rarely works. Most likely you'll get scrammed no matter how you act. With the general population most folks don't give a hoot that you're detecting other than the 1% that feel some moral obligation to make a complaint. In my 37 years of detecting 95-98% of my hunts have been in public places and I've only been scrammed 5-6 times. When I hunt these places I won't be wielding a shovel, will not dress like a commando with camo, backpack, and shovel, and I won't arrive with a posse comprised of everyone I know who has a detector.

nostalgia083 said:

If there's nothing in writing stating you can't and they try to intimidate you to not metal detect, that is a betrayal of their oath to protect the Constitution and is tyrannical.

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Toy-soldier answers this beautifully.

This isn't the right "hill to die on". To stand their defiantly claiming constitutional rights, blah blah. Doesn't matter whether your right or wrong legally (although I do agree that we're not doing anything illegal). Instead, the bigger issue is: What will produce the better end-results: To defy them and dispute it ? Or to give lip service, and let it blow over ? Odds are: Most all of these are flukes. So just leave it at that. Give it a rest, and come back later when said-singular lookie-lou isn't there.