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  #21  
Old 09-14-2021, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
Are you saying most people on Ring Finders do it for profit? In that case, I can see why the owner(s) of the site would charge $65 and I suppose it's a reasoanble price.

But I got the impression that most people who pay the $65 are just signing up b/c they love the hobby and want to help others at the same time. If this impression is correct, it seems kind of slimey to charge someone $65 per year to help others. It's like charging a restaurant money for the "privilege" of donating food to a local food bank.

But again, if most people on there are using the site to help build their ring finding business, then that's totally different.
It's a little of both as I stated. But think about it. Do you think someone would pay $65 a year just to say "I'm a Ringfinder , I'm special" ? I doubt it , unless you're an egomaniac. My 1 buddy has branched off from not only being a RF , but created his own website as well. He has done quite well and enjoys helping people. But make no mistake....he's also in it for the $.
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  #22  
Old 09-14-2021, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
It's a little of both as I stated. But think about it. Do you think someone would pay $65 a year just to say "I'm a Ringfinder , I'm special" ? I doubt it , unless you're an egomaniac. My 1 buddy has branched off from not only being a RF , but created his own website as well. He has done quite well and enjoys helping people. But make no mistake....he's also in it for the $.
I agree with you there. But I can't be the only one willing to spend the time and gas to help someone find a ring with a metal detector, yet aren't willing to shell out $65 each year to have that "privilege."
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  #23  
Old 09-14-2021, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
I agree with you there. But I can't be the only one willing to spend the time and gas to help someone find a ring with a metal detector, yet aren't willing to shell out $65 each year to have that "privilege."
The bottom line is this: The guys who are really pro active make way more than covering the gas , time and $65 on a yearly basis.
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  #24  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
The bottom line is this: The guys who are really pro active make way more than covering the gas , time and $65 on a yearly basis.
I think it is worth that little fee. I have contemplated signing up for my area. That enrollment fee is for the ability to use them to market yourself. People who think everything should be free boggle my mind.

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  #25  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
I get how the owner has overhead costs and there's time and effort involved to keep it running. But those costs exist for the owners of this site...and many other message boards. Yet they remain free...

Uh.... welcome to the free enterprise system. Some examples: There are those of us who make a forum, or do a youtube video, and monetize it in some way. Right ? Yet other venues are free (no ads popping up, no cost to join, etc...) SIMPLY because the person has fun doing it (and babysitting the spam, etc..). And plenty of youtube videos with zero pop-up ads. Simply because someone wanted to get-their-voice out there on some topic they like to voice-about.

In any event, you do not fault those that monetized (heaven forbid they made a buck ?) versus those that don't.

And if you love a hobby, (like Tiger Woods and golfing) it doesn't mean you need to "golf for free". If you saw a market niche (competing in golf games and getting paid for it, rather than golfing for free), why WOULDN'T you do it ?

There is no mandate that any is forced to join. If someone didn't like it, fine then, save your $65 and don't do it. Or conversely, if it gives you an edge to get referrals (versus waiting for word-of-mouth, or watching CL lost-ads), then perhaps the subscription is worth it to you . There is nothing immoral about charging for a service EVEN If you *could* "give it away for free".

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
....And charging customers (leaving that to the ring finder) is out of the question for some reason.
That is the only thing I would agree with you on, is that it's regrettable that there's not a uniform system. Because, sure, what's to stop someone from charging exorbitant rates ? Especially if they're not that skilled. Then it looks bad on the brand, as a whole.

Not sure how I would have solved this, but I just know that I have gotten calls where , they not only called me, but were, at the same time, calling the next closest listed person. And on one occasion, after I told the person "whatever tip you want", they lamented that the other guy was asking for such & such $, at the start TO EVEN SHOW UP. So it was as if I was making that other guy look bad (which wasn't my intent).

So I agree that some system would make it more level and uniform. Not sure how I'd handle it. Since, let's be honest: There's a million nuances for each search. Eg.: Distance to travel, value of item being sought for, etc....

Last edited by Tom_in_CA; 09-14-2021 at 04:40 PM.
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  #26  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
... Craigslist is free......
Uh... maybe every-type listing USED to be free, but .... not in recent years. Certain categories are getting charged for now. I get charged if I put a help-wanted ad (for my company) on there. And, if I'm not mistaken , other type ads are now getting charged for.

And for good reason: For a site like CL which get a million ads a day, SOMEONE has to sit there and weed out scams, illegal stuff, etc.... And even if those costs (employee time) can be said to be minimal, then, still: What's wrong with someone making a profit off a genius idea ?

Example: If you invented a better mousetrap, and the world was beating a path to your door, willing to pay any price, do you A) give it away free ? or B) charge a buck for it? OF COURSE you enjoy the rewards of your ingenuity of inventing a better mouse trap. And if someone doesn't want to pay that buck for your mousetrap : FINE THEN ! They are free to use the old-style trap. Ok ?

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... Listing items for sale on eBay is free......
No, I think you're mistaken. Ebay is a for-profit entity. Isn't it ??

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
....I'm not saying that Ring Finders or a similar site should be free. I'm just surprised the fee is so high and that it's the detectorists that pay it.
A) Well gee, it most certainly does sound like you're saying it should be free.

B) $65 is "high fees" ?

C) The MD'r subscribers don't pay for it. Ultimately , the persons who lost their rings pay-for-it ! Because when they tip (or pay whatever fee-structure the md'r has), then presto: THAT is paying the fee to ring-finders. ok ? You follow-the-money, and ultimately, it's the person's benefiting from the service (the ring-losers) who pay. Example, when I get a $50 or $100 tip, I say to myself "that paid for my whole year's membership this year".
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  #27  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
I can't believe some are sniveling over $65 per zone , per year. RF's I know make 10 -100 fold of that. My one buddy recently got $80 and $100 just for TRYING to find a lost ring. Most are experienced hunters who are giving back in a strange way , do-gooders if you will. But they all look at it to make $ and bragging rights. There are a few who have been known scammers and thieves as well....
thanx for chiming in KOB. With all your So. CA warm-water beaches, I would imagine that there would be constant demand for help. If someone's wrapped up the more popular beach zip codes ON RF, I imagine they'd be busy at times.

Yes the tips are fun. But it's rewarding just to put our hobby to good use, to help someone. And for the bragging rights, fun stories, mysteries solved, etc...

As for a few "scammers", well, no system in this world will ever be perfect. I'm sure that the founder of RF would indeed knock out someone from membership, if complaints rolled in.
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  #28  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
....
But I got the impression that most people who pay the $65 are just signing up b/c they love the hobby and want to help others at the same time......
There is a logical fallacy going on here. It's the assumption that 2 disparate things can't be true at the same time. You are assuming that if a person loves to detect, enjoys helping others, that ... presto, they must shun payment.

Why is this the case ? Why can't it be the case that you love doing something, and also get paid ??

I bet Tiger Woods loves golf. But at the same time, getting paid for it. Right ?
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  #29  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:41 PM
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Tom: I disagree with you on so many points, but I don't know where to start.

For example, listing on eBay is largely free, for most items and most sellers. Only when you sell an item, do you have to pay a fee. So with Ring Finder, you're paying a fee JUST TO GET LISTED. You're not paying a fee after someone has paid you to find their object.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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  #30  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
....For example, listing on eBay is largely free, for most items and most sellers. .....
I didn't disagree with that. Re-read my post, and it clearly said that , in recent years ... *SOME* types listings now cost.

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... So with Ring Finder, you're paying a fee JUST TO GET LISTED. ....
Correct. And guess what ? : In the old days of yellow pages for telephones, you (gasp) had to pay for your business to get an ad. EVEN before a single customer walked into your business. Right ?

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... You're not paying a fee after someone has paid you to find their object....
It doesn't matter whether you A) found a ring and got paid, and THEN paid RF, versus B) you pay RF first and THEN find a ring and get paid. What difference does it make which came first ?

In the same way that the yellow pages didn't get paid until AFTER customer's came to your business. Right ?
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  #31  
Old 09-14-2021, 04:55 PM
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Tom:

You said I was "mistaken" for saying that eBay is free. I wasn't mistaken. It is free. And yes, some situations require a fee to list. But those aren't the norm. But with Ring Finders, it's the norm to charge, not the exception.

As for the yellow pages example, that's not analogous. I'm not talking about businesses. When it comes to for-profit enterprises, the standard model for how payments work changes. Think about how many things are more expensive (or no longer free) b/c it's for business purposes as opposed to personal/educational/charitable (flying, using software, etc.).

It's one thing to charge $65 to a professional ring finder. It's different to charge someone that fee each year who just wants to help others.

Another consideration is how much it costs to run a website. It doesn't cost the owner of that website more than a few hundred dollars to operate that website. If I'm wrong, please correct me and explain how; I'm no expert in e-commerce and am willing to learn more about how that business model works.
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  #32  
Old 09-14-2021, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
.... and am willing to learn more about how that business model works....

I appreciate that honesty. Ok, here goes :


Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
...It's one thing to charge $65 to a professional ring finder. It's different to charge someone that fee each year who just wants to help others.....
Then if that md'r who only wants to help people, is really really interested in "just helping others" (which is fine), then : Why doesn't he pay the $65 and just do it ?

You're the one with the scenario of: that he "just wants to help others". Right ? So for example if I "just loved to fish for trout" (that brings me zero profit, and I just love the challenge/sport), then , sure, I can elect to pay $65 for the ability to trout fish. Or better yet, if someone PAYS ME to trout fish, then what's not to love about that too ?

Originally Posted by mh9162013 View post
..... It doesn't cost the owner of that website more than a few hundred dollars to operate that website....
Let me give you an example, as a self-employed business owner myself : I run a street sweeper business. My overhead costs might be fixed at such & such (diesel, employee labor, parts, rent, depreciation on equipment, etc....). There is NO BUSINESS OWNER that calculates all his costs, and charges in such a way that he "breaks even" (ie.: no profit). It doesn't work like that : I charge whatever the market-will-bear . Because I've taken-the-risk of being in business (a down year could sink me, etc...).

And if all I ever did was make profit and stay richly in-the-black, then : More power to me ! You are more than welcome to start a street sweeper business, float your shingle in my town, and compete for business, if you think you can do it cheaper, or better, etc..... Same for RF
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  #33  
Old 09-14-2021, 05:34 PM
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Tom:

One, if I'm interested in helping others, then my non-reimbursable costs become an issue. Can I afford $65 a year? Sure, but after using that site for just a few years, I've just spent enough money to buy a lot of gas...or even another detector! But, am I willing to pay for something that I believe is overpriced and should be free? Yes, as long as it doesn't cost me too much. But in my mind, $65 a year, every year, is too much.

Two, there's the principal of it having to pay for something that, in my opinion, should be lower priced...or use a different business model.

Third, as for businesses owners not wanting to break even, I get that. But my gut tells me that the owner of Ring Finder can afford to cover all his/her website costs when less than half-a-dozen people pay for their annual membership. So, what about the other few hundred/thousand? That's pure profit (well, not pure, there are taxes, time, etc.), but you know what I'm getting at.

There are so many services out there the offer 2 business models for differnt types of customers. Usually, the more expensive one applies to professionals. Then there's a cheaper/free option for hobbyists/do-gooders/students/charities. I just think Ring Finder should have that model.

All that being said, I don't know what I don't know. Perhaps the owner could explain how the website/business model works and my response could be: "you only charge $65? I'd charge $100!" But we don't have that information right now, hence my current conclusion of that site.
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  #34  
Old 09-14-2021, 07:17 PM
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It sure is funny to see Tom & MH go at it. But Tom is 100% correct on all his points. Same as his debates on permissions. Though that took me awile to figure out ! MH , it may take you awile to figure out as well. But bottomline is pay the $65 or don't. Nobody is forcing you , and you can also start your own gig too. That's what America is all about.

Here is something else to consider and the path I've chosen : My RF buddy I've talked about sends me pics all the time of his beach hunts. I send most , not all of mine. Just like on here , I don't post or talk about all my finds. He is proud of his returns and most of his rewards ( some are small $). But he posts his pics like they are his. And then adds that it was a return. Finally , after awile I have to bring him back to reality. And I say : "But you don't get to keep those finds" and "I get to keep all mine". Then it sinks in. 🤣 Sure , he gets the moral victory and some finders fees. But I also get moral victories and ALL the fees when I go to sell !
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  #35  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by KOB View post
It sure is funny to see Tom & MH go at it. But Tom is 100% correct on all his points. Same as his debates on permissions. Though that took me awile to figure out ! MH , it may take you awile to figure out as well. But bottomline is pay the $65 or don't. Nobody is forcing you , and you can also start your own gig too. That's what America is all about.

Here is something else to consider and the path I've chosen : My RF buddy I've talked about sends me pics all the time of his beach hunts. I send most , not all of mine. Just like on here , I don't post or talk about all my finds. He is proud of his returns and most of his rewards ( some are small $). But he posts his pics like they are his. And then adds that it was a return. Finally , after awile I have to bring him back to reality. And I say : "But you don't get to keep those finds" and "I get to keep all mine". Then it sinks in. 🤣 Sure , he gets the moral victory and some finders fees. But I also get moral victories and ALL the fees when I go to sell !
Figure what out? That people can charge w/e they want? Of course they can, but that doesn't make it right. Or it doesn't mean that's the most efficient want to make money.

I don't think the owner(s) of Ring Finders are doing anything bad or unethical. I agree, they can do what they want. But that doesn't mean I agree that they're using the best business model that allows them to earn a profit, while also making it easier for detectorists and people who've lost things to come together.

There's a reason that many companies sell products and services using two payment schemes. I think such a scheme could/should apply to Ring Finders. But like you said, they can do w/e they want.
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  #36  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:20 PM
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Tom is 100% correct in my opinion as well. If their service wasn’t worth anything the market would set the price of “free” or it would simply go away. If you want to find peoples stuff and not pay a fee for them marketing you and your potential services then get your own page and promote yourself. People do this quite often. eBay does charge to sell so that is a service fee. I don’t understand why it matters that it costs. There is a ton of services out there that require fees and if I can avoid I will. However if it is a proven success which the ring finders is then if I need that service I would pay.

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  #37  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:21 PM
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I can't believe some are sniveling over $65 per zone , per year. RF's I know make 10 -100 fold of that.
Gee, the way their site is set up, I thought all these guys were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. So it's just a money making scam? What a surprise! I never would have guessed that! Lol!

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  #38  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DiggingThePNW View post
Tom is 100% correct in my opinion as well. If their service wasn’t worth anything the market would set the price of “free” or it would simply go away. If you want to find peoples stuff and not pay a fee for them marketing you and your potential services then get your own page and promote yourself. People do this quite often. eBay does charge to sell so that is a service fee. I don’t understand why it matters that it costs. There is a ton of services out there that require fees and if I can avoid I will. However if it is a proven success which the ring finders is then if I need that service I would pay.
eBay charges to sell, but for many sellers and many items, they do not charge TO LIST an item. So the parallel situation with Ring Finders would be that it's free to sign up, but it costs money to take a job looking for a ring or hire a detectorist.

I think this would be a better business model in that it would lead to increase revenue/profit, but also make easier for people to work for free or hire a detectorist for free. I could be wrong though and I'll freely admit that. But to say I'm wrong b/c it's "American" to run a business however you want isn't a very strong argument.

Also, just because Ring Finders is in business, doesn't mean it has an ideal business model.

As for why it matters what it costs, it doesn't. I happen to think they charge too much or they should offer a different pricing scheme for detectorists who aren't in it for the money. But many people here think that opinion is wrong.
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  #39  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FreeBirdTim View post
Gee, the way their site is set up, I thought all these guys were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. So it's just a money making scam? What a surprise! I never would have guessed that! Lol!
Looks like I'm the naive one here.

I really did think that site was primarily about doing good deeds as a metal detectorist, not turning a profit.

I guess I was wrong.
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  #40  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:39 PM
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I think the crux of this argument is about how the Ring Finders website is viewed.

Most of you guys seem to view it as a grocery store - in existence to make money by selling food. In contrast, I thought it was more like a food bank, in existence to do good for a community through the act of distributing food. Both entities have every right to exist and operate with their current organizational models.

If it really is more grocery store than food bank, then yes, my thoughts on their pricing scheme will be tempered a bit. I still think they can have a two-tired pricing scheme, though...
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